Blade positioning woes

[Bill_S]

I finally mounted blades to my new Riedell Fusion boots using just the temporary mounting screws. I tried skating for the first time this morning, and it did not go as well as hoped.

The first steps on the ice lasted about 10 feet, and I felt like a complete beginner. I could tell that blade position was off considerably. Both blades needed to be moved to the inside. I went back to the lobby, untied, and used a screwdriver to re-adjust blade position.  I expected having to do an initial adjustment.

The second attempt to skate lasted about 30 yards until I returned to the lobby again for the screwdriver. Left blade was now OK, but I was still pronating on the right blade.

This time, I moved the right blade as far inside as possible and skated again. MUCH better, but even with the right blade adjustment against the limits, I was still pronating. The right bladed "shussshhhed" when gliding forward, and I could visually detect a little remaining pronation. I spent the last half hour just doing some stroking to break in the stiff boots despite the odd feeling.

When I got off the ice and compared the position of the right blade vs the left, I observed this (because the skates are inverted, the right skate is shown on the left)...



and this...



The right blade is obviously positioned well to the inside, much more than the left one, but it's still not enough.

I wonder why all of a sudden, the right blade needs to be so far inside to prevent pronation? I naturally supinate in street shoes, not pronate. The blades on my old skates were symmetrically positioned, looking much like the left blade is in the photos above.

I see three options:
1) Plug holes and re-drill more to the inside. Issues: Plugging is a hassle, plus the front mounting plate may overhang the sole after more adjustment.
2) Lengthen the temporary screw slots in the blade mounting plates. Issues: I might not be able to lengthen them enough at the heel plate, plus I'll still have the risk of plate overhang at the front.
3) Experiment with wedges or layers of tape under the outside edge of the insole. A friend is going to give me an unused Riedell wedge from their footbed kit. Issues: foam wedges will break down and collapse over time. Tape may turn gummy and creep.

I'm going for the easiest solution, the wedge under the insole, for now. I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around why I need to move the right blade so far inside, and be located so differently from the left.

[Query]

Tape may turn gummy and creep.

I had that problem with duct tape. Not with cloth first aid tape. Or at least it took many years to be a problem, after which you can redo it.

My belief is that too large a horizontal offset affects spin balance. And some of us have had it gradually twist and distort the boots - though maybe that was a problem specific to Klingbeils.

With your mechanical skill and tools, I'm certain you will find a suitable solution. Maybe you can even figure out a way to shape a block of material that exactly matches the shape and tilt of the bottom your feet? Leather is super-durable, BTW, more so than the foams I have tried. One of my fitters - the incompetent one - finally tried sanding down a leather insole to fit - but he didn't know what he was doing, and messed it up. If you could mold something like clay to fit your foot, inside the boot, do you have tools that could shape something exactly the same way? (BTW, some heat molded boots used to contain clay, that was baked in an oven to hold its shape. I'm not sure how they avoided it cracking under stress. Probably a bit heavy, too.) (Downhill ski boot footbeds are frequently heat molded using cork footbeds, with the foot inside. I'm not sure how durable cork is. And how you insulate the feet from the heat.)

[Query]

If you put the heated cork (heated to the point of being moldable - i.e., "plastic") under the insole, I wonder if it would provide sufficient insulation.

Also, if you haven't done a proper heat mold of the boots, with ankles straight, it is possible that the shape of the sides of the boot are forcing your ankle to bend sideways. That might be the first thing I would try, if the boots are heat moldable.

[tstop4me]

The right blade is obviously positioned well to the inside, much more than the left one, but it's still not enough.

I wonder why all of a sudden, the right blade needs to be so far inside to prevent pronation? I naturally supinate in street shoes, not pronate. The blades on my old skates were symmetrically positioned, looking much like the left blade is in the photos above.

I see three options:
1) Plug holes and re-drill more to the inside. Issues: Plugging is a hassle, plus the front mounting plate may overhang the sole after more adjustment.
2) Lengthen the temporary screw slots in the blade mounting plates. Issues: I might not be able to lengthen them enough at the heel plate, plus I'll still have the risk of plate overhang at the front.
3) Experiment with wedges or layers of tape under the outside edge of the insole. A friend is going to give me an unused Riedell wedge from their footbed kit. Issues: foam wedges will break down and collapse over time. Tape may turn gummy and creep.

I'm going for the easiest solution, the wedge under the insole, for now. I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around why I need to move the right blade so far inside, and be located so differently from the left.

(1) You did your own sharpenng, so I assume the edges are even.

(2) I believe you checked the alignment of the blades (stanchions orthogonal to mounting plates).  But what about the alignment of the sole and heel of the boots, in particular the right boot?

(3) If you are having problems with pronation on your right foot, you want a wedge to raise the inside edge of the insole, not the outside edge.  If you find that the wedge works, I can provide details of materials that last (depending on how thick a wedge you need).  I have DIY removable insoles that have held up for ~3 yrs now (skating ~8 hrs/wk, 49 wks/yr).

(4) I personally wouldn't grind the temp slots of the blade to elongate them.  Permanently plugging old holes and drilling new holes isn't all that big a deal (I've done it mucho times).

(5) I'm also not a fan of extreme lateral offsets (longitudinal axis of blade to longitudinal axis of boot).  I don't care to have a mounting plate sticking past the side of the boot (in case I fall onto it).  Too big a lateral offset also leads to an unstable balance; and, as Query mentioned, messed up the balance for my spins (on my left boot).  But if you're a CCW spinner, you might be able to tolerate a larger lateral offset on your right foot.  What constitutes an extreme lateral offset depends on your boot, blade, and body.  For me, 1/4" was too much, and I reduced the offset to 1/8" max.

(6) A fourth option is to insert shims between the mounting plates and the boot.  Note that in this case, you insert the shims along the outside edges of the mounting plates.  If you decide to go the shim route, I can provide more details.

(7) I have problematic feet, so I need a combo of corrective footbeds, blade offsets, and shims.

[Bill_S]

I had the advantage of successfully skating in those blades mounted on my old boots, so there's nothing wrong with their construction. I'm still using the sharpening from that experiment too, so edge levelness isn't an issue. I'm really fanatical about that. That leaves the boot/foot interface as the probable cause. While gliding, I can SEE the pronation on the right blade when I look down to compare the two.

Your option for using a wedge between blade and sole occurred to me this afternoon. I intend to add epoxy putty (a la Precision Blade Honing Enterprises) to the bottom of this pair to level the sole's mounting surface for permanent mounting after these adjustments. With the epoxy putty, it would be fairly easy to create a wedge using spacers while it cured.

On Monday, I'll play around with the insole wedges first to see if they work.

BTW, my right foot had surgery in 2012 to remove the big and little toe joints, so that might be a factor this time around.

[Bill_S]

I didn't have much space inside for insole wedges, so I made up some temporary wooden wedges for a blade mounting trial.





That's a LOT of wedge!

I skated this morning and it helped a great deal. However it's a very rickety blade mounting. It's not a tidy solution at this point.

I am still having a hard time just skating around in the new skates. I spent an hour this morning just doing crossovers front and back, one or two three turns (ugh!) and one wobbly, traveling spin. Getting used to new boots is much more demanding than just replacing blades. I feel like a rank beginner, and struggle with even the basics.

The new boots, while tied very tightly, are stiff enough that the lace pressure doesn't pull the boots completely around my foot, so my foot is moving a bit inside. That makes me want to wait until they are more broken-in before fine-tuning the blade mount. My right arch is being pressured by the boot's arch padding and the shape of the leather in that area. That extra pressure there may be one reason for the pronation. Maybe I'll use a clamp in that area to see if I can permanently compress some of the arch padding.

My prior boots were MUCH easier to mount blades to. While I needed a couple of weeks to become used to them, but there were no complications like with these (well, the right one in this case).

[Query]

If you use a bigger piece of leather, and "feather" (thin) it gradually so the other other side is thinner, so you create a true wedge, rather than an abrupt height change, it won't be rickety.

Did you do a heat mold? If not, it might otherwise still be a possibility is that asymmetric pressures on the upper part of the boot are forcing your foot to bend over, at the ankle or elsewhere, which you are trying to compensate for with the wedge.

A heat mold would hopefully also eliminate the need for such a tightly laced boot, and would produce a more perfect fit in general. If a heat mold isn't enough (sigh), you can glue moleskin inside the boot in places you need to make the pressure approximately uniform over most of your foot.

I hope you don't have to take the same type of approach to boots you took to blades - i.e., buy virtually every brand and model.

[tstop4me]

I skated this morning and it helped a great deal. However it's a very rickety blade mounting. It's not a tidy solution at this point.

Looks like you're using just the four temp screws, so the mount will be rickety; especially at the heel, since the two temp screws there are diagonally opposed (on Wilson blades), instead of aligned in a row.  When playing around with wedges or shims between the boot and the blade, you should at a minimum have two rows of screws in the sole plate and all four screws in the heel plate.

[tstop4me]

The new boots, while tied very tightly, are stiff enough that the lace pressure doesn't pull the boots completely around my foot, so my foot is moving a bit inside. That makes me want to wait until they are more broken-in before fine-tuning the blade mount. My right arch is being pressured by the boot's arch padding and the shape of the leather in that area. That extra pressure there may be one reason for the pronation. Maybe I'll use a clamp in that area to see if I can permanently compress some of the arch padding.

My last pair of Riedells were early 2000's Royals.  The fixed insoles had built-up arch supports, and the removable footbeds were thin leather liners with light foam pads on the arches.  What's the design of the fixed insoles on the new Fusions and Silver Stars you recently bought?  Do they have built-up arch supports, or are they flat?  What about the stock removable footbeds?

[nicklaszlo]

Rainbo Sports used to use hard plastic as a shim.

If you use wood, you will need to ensure it does not rot.

[Bill_S]

Please remember that I will not use wood shims in the final mount. I explained a couple posts up that I'd be using an epoxy putty to do this per Precision Blade Honing's method - http://precisionblade.com/index.php/precision-blade-mounting/.

The wood is just a temporary expedient to see if shimming helps offset pronation, and to find how much shimming I need.

Once I determine that, I'll create a more appropriate wedge for further experiments before permanently mounting the blade.

[Bill_S]

My last pair of Riedells were early 2000's Royals.  The fixed insoles had built-up arch supports, and the removable footbeds were thin leather liners with light foam pads on the arches.  What's the design of the fixed insoles on the new Fusions and Silver Stars you recently bought?  Do they have built-up arch supports, or are they flat?  What about the stock removable footbeds?

The boot itself has padding under the arch area, and the leather is formed to support an arch there. The removable footbed is made of a thin foam material with a small piece of thin rubbery-material placed at the heel. The footbed material is somewhat thicker starting at the arch area and continuing on to the heel. The front is thin.

Pictures work best, so I pulled out the footbed from the right skate...

[FigureSpins]

I know you're a man with a plan, but some food for thought:

One of the fitters in my area "levels" the sole of the boot using a belt sander prior to mounting the blades.  He feels it eliminates the need for blade shims.  As a cockeyed person, I don't know how this leveling works - he must eyeball the backstrap of the boot to see if it's vertical, I guess.  (Not one of my talents - never let me hang a picture on the wall, lol.)  He does this a lot on new stock boots, especially Jacksons, where he removes the bottom layer of plastic from the mounting area.  Requires waterproofing with SnoSeal before the final mounting.

Bill Klingbeil used to use a hammer to thin out one side of a leather shim to make a wedge, but they were never as thick as what your photo shows, Bill. 

My usual fitter cuts an oval shape out of leather, trimming it to 1" x 1/2", then snips a "J" shape at one end.  He hooks the J around a screw from inside-to-outside and tightens the screw to keep it in place.

[Bill_S]

I have a belt sander, but with the amount of modification needed, I'm afraid that I'd thin the sole too much for screw strength. The boot has a sole of two layers, and it appears that my new Silver Stars have a layer of cork next to the leather outsole. It makes me wonder about the similar 2010 Fusion that I'm working with. Men's skates have the edge painted black and that makes identifying the sole layer materials difficult. Removing too much leather would cause problems if there's cork underneath. Cork would certainly be too weak to hold screws well.

A leather shim is very workable, and I'd probably go about making one with multiple layers of thin leather, overlapped to form a wedge. I have punches to put holes in any leather shim easily enough. Actually the wooden "hillybilly engineered" wedges have holes from the screws to pass through. I don't want to rely on the wood for further experiments though. It was a one-time "let's see what happens" experiment.

I'm half tempted to contact Riedell about this. I have two pairs of Gold Stars here with blades mounted (including the pair I'm in now), and was thinking about showing photos of the normal blade positions on them, and compare them to the new boots. It's certainly possible that something went awry in manufacturing of the right boot.

Here's a front view of the boot with blade and wooden wedge (not visible). I'll include something like this in any correspondence with them too.

[MCsAngel2]

That boot looks really, really crooked to me. ☹️

[tstop4me]

A leather shim is very workable, and I'd probably go about making one with multiple layers of thin leather, overlapped to form a wedge. I have punches to put holes in any leather shim easily enough. Actually the wooden "hillybilly engineered" wedges have holes from the screws to pass through. I don't want to rely on the wood for further experiments though. It was a one-time "let's see what happens" experiment.

If you want to play around with shim height, you don't need to make custom wedges.  Just insert one or more washers between the mounting plate and the boot.   Then just insert the screw through the mounting plate hole and through the washer(s).   You vary the height of the shim simply by adding more washers.  For easier handling of a stack of washers, glue them together.  Plastic washers are typically thicker than metal washers.  I mix and match to get the total thicknesses I want.

[Query]

By the way, leather sands to shape very well. One of my fitters tried to sand my Klingbeil soles  to fit - but they weren't thick enough to make that modification, and he was incompetent. He also sanded the bottoms of my boots - but, again, not enough. (In fact, I think he made them nearly co-planar, which did make it a little easier to shift the blade mount offset without having to shim the blades.)

There are various places you can buy pieces of leather, big and thick enough to make an insole. E.g., some places that make or repair custom boots. Assuming you don't want to buy the leather from an entire cow.

Leather isn't the lightest material, but it is fairly durable.

That boot looks really, really crooked to me. ☹️

That is the way you would expect a boot to twist if you offset it too much. Which is one reason why a heat mold and wedge makes more sense than an extreme offset.

Incidentally, it is precisely that twist which appears to have created the need for the shim!

You will also note that the top part - matching the leg - does not align with the blade. Which will make precision skating harder, because he won't be supporting his weight directly down the axis of the leg. And that the foot is obviously bent sideways inside the boot.

I wonder if this is partly the result of the foot surgeries Bill has had.

Regardless, it is possible that he pronates (bends sideways to the inside) ONLY or MORE when he places weight on the foot. If that is the case (purely speculative), as he puts weight on the foot, his edge depth will change. Maybe not a super-big problem in freestyle skating, but in ice dance, and possibly moves, it is often considered better to maintain a uniform edge depth and resulting radius of arc throughout a lobe. He could compensate for that by making a wedge (or insole) out of more than one material. In particular, some materials compress more under weight than others. (There are of course athletic training alternatives to boot modification for this purpose.)

Another approach, if the bend isn't in the bottom-most part of the foot, would be to use extremely stiff boots - but I doubt he wants to pay for another pair.

[Snakero]

(1) You did your own sharpenng, so I assume the edges are even.

(2) I believe you checked the alignment of the blades (stanchions orthogonal to mounting plates).  But what about the alignment of the sole and heel of the boots, in particular the right boot?

(3) If you are having problems with pronation on your right foot, you want a wedge to raise the inside edge of the insole, not the outside edge.  If you find that the wedge works, I can provide details of materials that last (depending on how thick a wedge you need).  I have DIY removable insoles that have held up for ~3 yrs now (skating ~8 hrs/wk, 49 wks/yr).

(4) I personally wouldn't grind the temp slots of the blade to elongate them.  Permanently plugging old holes and drilling new holes isn't all that big a deal (I've done it mucho times).

(5) I'm also not a fan of extreme lateral offsets (longitudinal axis of blade to longitudinal axis of boot).  I don't care to have a mounting plate sticking past the side of the boot (in case I fall onto it).  Too big a lateral offset also leads to an unstable balance; and, as Query mentioned, messed up the balance for my spins (on my left boot).  But if you're a CCW spinner, you might be able to tolerate a larger lateral offset on your right foot.  What constitutes an extreme lateral offset depends on your boot, blade, and body.  For me, 1/4" was too much, and I reduced the offset to 1/8" max.

(6) A fourth option is to insert shims between the mounting plates and the boot.  Note that in this case, you insert the shims along the outside edges of the mounting plates.  If you decide to go the shim route, I can provide more details.

(7) I have problematic feet, so I need a combo of corrective footbeds, blade offsets, and shims.

I know this is an old post, but a fellow problematic feet here, and I'm thinking about using some sort of shim under my insoles to fix my pronating issues. Could you tell a little bit more details about what kind of materials to use, and how? A reply would be greatly appreciated!

[Query]

I won't try to guess what the other respondents currently use.

When I have used this method, I ended up favoring cloth athletic tape - applied to the underside of the insole - because it is pretty stable, in position and thickness. I start out thinner than I need, and progressively

(I started out with duct tape, because it's cheap, but it isn't as stable - may shift in position, and the glue shifts out from under it, so the fix lasts less long.)

More recently, I cut pieces of foam from a foam camping mattress pad, and used a scissors to cut them to desired 3 dimensional shape, adjusting progressively by feel, to completely replace the original insole. But that takes practice. Tape is faster at first.

I even more recently had "orthotics" custom ordered by an orthotist specialty shop, at the request of a podiatrist. They were for orthotic athletic shoes, not skates; the orthotist said she would have done it a bit differently for skates. But they did an extremely good job, using 3 layers of foam, laminated together, of different stiffness and properties. That's fancier than I know how to do. If my insurance hadn't paid for it, it would have been quite expensive. They feel very, very good. But there are medical practitioners who know how to do things right.

Nonetheless, it may be worthwhile playing with a bit of athletic tape instead. It's fast, easy, and if you use too much, you can sand it off. I would suggest you stay with good quality athletic tape. The dollar store stuff might work at first, but like duct tape, it isn't really optimally designed. E.g., Johnson & Johnson is a well respected brand in the United States - and last I knew, it had the advantage of easy tearability. Last I used it, that brand can be easily and neatly torn along two axis - one across the width, and one along the length. Of course, you can cut it too. It's a bit more expensive, but not all that expensive.

[tstop4me]

I know this is an old post, but a fellow problematic feet here, and I'm thinking about using some sort of shim under my insoles to fix my pronating issues. Could you tell a little bit more details about what kind of materials to use, and how? A reply would be greatly appreciated!

Additional information would be helpful:

(1) Do you currently wear orthotics in your street shoes?  E.g., any issues with fallen arches?

(2) With your skates, do you have an idea of how severe the pronation is?

(3) What boot do you have?  Are you planning to (at least initially) use the stock removable footbeds (insoles) that came with them?

[Snakero]

I won't try to guess what the other respondents currently use.

When I have used this method, I ended up favoring cloth athletic tape - applied to the underside of the insole - because it is pretty stable, in position and thickness. I start out thinner than I need, and progressively

(I started out with duct tape, because it's cheap, but it isn't as stable - may shift in position, and the glue shifts out from under it, so the fix lasts less long.)

More recently, I cut pieces of foam from a foam camping mattress pad, and used a scissors to cut them to desired 3 dimensional shape, adjusting progressively by feel, to completely replace the original insole. But that takes practice. Tape is faster at first.

I even more recently had "orthotics" custom ordered by an orthotist specialty shop, at the request of a podiatrist. They were for orthotic athletic shoes, not skates; the orthotist said she would have done it a bit differently for skates. But they did an extremely good job, using 3 layers of foam, laminated together, of different stiffness and properties. That's fancier than I know how to do. If my insurance hadn't paid for it, it would have been quite expensive. They feel very, very good. But there are medical practitioners who know how to do things right.

Nonetheless, it may be worthwhile playing with a bit of athletic tape instead. It's fast, easy, and if you use too much, you can sand it off. I would suggest you stay with good quality athletic tape. The dollar store stuff might work at first, but like duct tape, it isn't really optimally designed. E.g., Johnson & Johnson is a well respected brand in the United States - and last I knew, it had the advantage of easy tearability. Last I used it, that brand can be easily and neatly torn along two axis - one across the width, and one along the length. Of course, you can cut it too. It's a bit more expensive, but not all that expensive.

Thank you for replies!

I was thinking of athletic tape too. One thing I'm worried is building the insole too thick, since the skates (Ice Fly) are rather snug fit, and I have pretty high arcs to begin with. Just to confirm, you tape the underside of the insole, not the sole of the boot?

Will try this for starters.

[tstop4me]

I'm half tempted to contact Riedell about this. I have two pairs of Gold Stars here with blades mounted (including the pair I'm in now), and was thinking about showing photos of the normal blade positions on them, and compare them to the new boots. It's certainly possible that something went awry in manufacturing of the right boot.

Here's a front view of the boot with blade and wooden wedge (not visible). I'll include something like this in any correspondence with them too.

Hey, Bill, since this thread has been resurrected, I'm curious whether you contacted Riedell; and, if so, what was their resolution.

[Snakero]

Additional information would be helpful:

(1) Do you currently wear orthotics in your street shoes?  E.g., any issues with fallen arches?

(2) With your skates, do you have an idea of how severe the pronation is?

(3) What boot do you have?  Are you planning to (at least initially) use the stock removable footbeds (insoles) that came with them?

1) No orthotics, although I would perhaps benefit from some. I have pretty high arcs, and my ankle do seem to pronate to the inside a bit, but I'm not sure how serious it is. Not serious enough that I'd have problems in everyday life, but longer walks and jogging can sometimes cause me lower back pain that might be related to the pronation.

2) The blade is already offset a bit to the inside, but I feel like I "fall" off the inside edge more easily, if that makes sense. Outside edges are fine. Hard to say how bad the pronation is, but I can definitely feel my arc hitting the sole, like "falling" to it, if that makes sense. On my left foot I have a really pronounced bone (the one above the arc, whatever its called) that pushes against the boot, especially when I move my weight on the instep.

3) The boot is Edea Ice Fly. The stock insoles were basically useless (no support whatsoever). I got heat moldable insoles (Footbalance Control QuickFit) with a high arc support, which seemed to help a little. However, I still feel like the insoles are more made for shoes than skates, and they are not doing enough.

My feet are basically "burning" and I have a hard time balancing myself as I feel like my feet are working overtime inside the boot.

[tstop4me]

2) The blade is already offset a bit to the inside, but I feel like I "fall" off the inside edge more easily, if that makes sense. Outside edges are fine. Hard to say how bad the pronation is, but I can definitely feel my arc hitting the sole, like "falling" to it, if that makes sense. On my left foot I have a really pronounced bone (the one above the arc, whatever its called) that pushes against the boot, especially when I move my weight on the instep.

I think it's worthwhile to hit pause and rewind.  Typically when you pronate on ice skates, you have no problems getting onto inside edges and difficulty getting onto outside edges.  The opposite of what you describe.

What happens when you try to do single-foot straight glides (left foot, right foot, forward, backward)?  Do you glide straight, veer to the left, or veer to the right under the conditions above?  It's best to have someone else observe you.  If you can get onto clean ice, look at the tracings.  Do you have two parallel traces of equal weight, two parallel traces of unequal weight (if so, note which trace is heavier), or one trace under the conditions above?

[Bill_S]

Hey, Bill, since this thread has been resurrected, I'm curious whether you contacted Riedell; and, if so, what was their resolution.

Covid hit shortly after this, then I had the knee operation to remove part of my injured meniscus, so I never did anything about it. I still have these boots plus an unused pair of Silver Stars sitting around, but I'll likely never get to use them because of the %$&@& knee and advancing age.

I had intended to fabricate a wedge of leather to fit between blade and boot. I didn't have much room inside the boot for orthotics.