Gold Seal vs. Pattern 99 blade comparison

[Query]

I don't understand your point.

Do I correctly understand that the video shows is that the upper portion of the runner is thinner around the staunchion, presumably because the stunchion supports the weight, stiffness and stress. That particular form of side honing reduces the weight of the blade, though I'm not sure it is by enough to matter.

Bill did another test at one point, where he showed that a particular blade did not have any side honing near the bottom of the blade, where it would affect the way the edge interacts. That was a very convincing demonstration that aside from slightly reducing weight, on that particular blade, side honing did nothing useful.

There is another very important factor you are ignoring. The placebo effect. If a skater is convinced that they don't have the best possible blade, they may think they can't do well, so they won't. They may not even think it worth trying very hard. And they will be upset that their parents or guardians won't buy them the blade they want, so they won't even be able to concentrate on skating. I'm convinced that for some skaters this is a huge effect, and that it makes a big difference.

[Kaitsu]

I don't understand your point.

Imagine that I will sharpen your skates and I do following kind of grinding to your blades. Can you list two clear problems what you can see on the attached sketch?

The placebo effect.

I can assure that I have not forgot this point. It´s you and 99,9% of skaters and their parents whom wants desperately ignore many facts by closing ears and eyes. Also way too many coaches does have very poor technical knowledge of blades and it seems they are not even interested to understand technical things.  That's the problem in whole figure skating culture. People want to live in the bubble and dream that they are driving with Ferrari, even sale's person sold them Fiat. Both starts with F and according to sales person they use same components and they are owned by same group, but they sold in different brand. Even you would have Ferrari, it does not help if the final tuning of your car is done someone whom tunes your Ferrari in to level of Fiat. Or if you have very skilled technician who could tune your Ferrari to word class race car, but you are not able to tell how it feels on your hand and how would you like to your Ferrari be tuned. It's also very likely that someone may beat your Ferrari with highly tuned regular family car. You just need to have skills and knowledge for that.

In the other words, both are very important, mental side and equipments. I cannot say how much each imperfection in blades truly affects, but I am kind of person whom want to turn every stone if there is even some hope to help skaters.

PS. I do not have any experience of Fiat or Ferrari, but this is good example how deep its in people's minds that certain brand is better than some other.

[supersharp]

Imagine that I will sharpen your skates and I do following kind of grinding to your blades. Can you list two clear problems what you can see on the attached sketch?


I can assure that I have not forgot this point. It´s you and 99,9% of skaters and their parents whom wants desperately ignore many facts by closing ears and eyes. Also way too many coaches does have very poor technical knowledge of blades and it seems they are not even interested to understand technical things.  That's the problem in whole figure skating culture. People want to live in the bubble and dream that they are driving with Ferrari, even sale's person sold them Fiat. Both starts with F and according to sales person they use same components and they are owned by same group, but they sold in different brand. Even you would have Ferrari, it does not help if the final tuning of your car is done someone whom tunes your Ferrari in to level of Fiat. Or if you have very skilled technician who could tune your Ferrari to word class race car, but you are not able to tell how it feels on your hand and how would you like to your Ferrari be tuned. It's also very likely that someone may beat your Ferrari with highly tuned regular family car. You just need to have skills and knowledge for that.

In the other words, both are very important, mental side and equipments. I cannot say how much each imperfection in blades truly affects, but I am kind of person whom want to turn every stone if there is even some hope to help skaters.

PS. I do not have any experience of Fiat or Ferrari, but this is good example how deep its in people's minds that certain brand is better than some other.

Excellent analogy with Ferrari-Fiat.  Many people buy blades such as Wilson Gold Seal thinking they have bought the Ferrari (which is debatable in my opinion) but unless they have a skate tech that really looks at the geometry of the blade in all 3 dimensions and also understands the physics of the blade's interaction with the ice surface, this blade will probably be tuned more to the level of a fancy riding lawnmower.  Even if the side-honing is consistently carried all the way to the edge of the blade (which I have never seen on a blade with chrome relief), assessing when the edges are truly level is challenging.  If a skate tech tells you it is easy to get level edges on a side-honed blade, you should ask them how they assess the finished product.  Either they are understating the care it takes to deal with two flared edges, or they don't actually understand the differences in blade geometry and are probably giving you different edge angles on the two sides of the blade.   

In most cases, the side-honing has been eliminated by the chrome relief grinding, and often I see areas near the toe pick and tail that are ground so that the blade has also had a curve gouged out of it.  Perhaps this is less important right at the tail, since most free skaters do not really skate all the way at the end of the tail except during brief moments of balance change (or loss).  At the front of the skate, it often appears right at the area where spins take place, which is not at all beneficial. 

Between the potential for bad sharpenings and the inconsistencies from the chrome relief grinding, it is quite a challenge to get these Ferrari parts to be tuned to help skaters win the race.  I have come to the conclusion that the correlation between this type of blade and the world's best skaters is a reverse causation--the skaters that would win anyway have been put in this blade because this is what you are told you should wear if you want to be a winner.  The world's best skaters win in spite of the blade, because they are talented, hard-working, and very skilled.  They also work with very high-end skate techs who will only accept blades that are nearly perfect and will use their tech skills to rectify imperfections placed on the blades in the manufacturing process.  Most skaters do not have access to this level of care for our blades. 

Having the idea in your head that you have risen to the skill level to wear the world's best blades is a strong boost for most skaters' confidence, so as pointed out by others, the skater will improve because their confidence has increased, making them think that mistakes are an "oops" or a "one-off" rather than a sign that they are not as good of a skater as they thought.  I think this is the main reason that skaters will improve when moving to a higher level blade even if they move to a blade with a problematic design. 

Even parallel blades can be affected by these problems.  Pattern 99 is a parallel blade (no side-honing) but the chrome relief is often ground as shown in Kaitsu's video.  This same blade profile is available from Step Blades (Step 99) in stainless with no side-honing.  Anyone that skates in Pattern 99 should consider trying the Step 99 just for the improvement in steel quality.  And the price is lower...hard to complain about that.  Paramount makes a blade with the Pattern 99 profile and also in the Gold Seal profile, both with runners that are truly parallel.  They are available with stainless runners or carbon steel runners.

Skaters who are seeking a true flared edge on their blades can find this on both the Matrix blades (Matrix Nova, supposed to be similar to MK Gold Star) and on the Ultima Apex series of blades.  The Apex blades are carbon steel with a titanium coating on the sides and dove-tailed sides that flare all the way to the edges.  The matrix frame and the sides of the blades are parallel, so it is easy to tell if the edges are level when you sharpen them.  Both of these blades cost several hundred dollars ($US) less than the Gold Seal and around 100$US less than the MK Gold Star.  And most skate techs with any reasonable level of skill will be able to sharpen them for you with consistent results.

I'd rather pay Fiat prices and drive a car that can be tuned to outrun the Ferrari.  I'm pretty sure that when someone is watching me skate, they are not looking at my blades and giving me any kind of additional credit for having a certain type of blade.   

[tstop4me]

Skaters who are seeking a true flared edge on their blades can find this on both the Matrix blades (Matrix Nova, supposed to be similar to MK Gold Star) and on the Ultima Apex series of blades.  The Apex blades are carbon steel with a titanium coating on the sides and dove-tailed sides that flare all the way to the edges.  The matrix frame and the sides of the blades are parallel, so it is easy to tell if the edges are level when you sharpen them.  Both of these blades cost several hundred dollars ($US) less than the Gold Seal and around 100$US less than the MK Gold Star.  And most skate techs with any reasonable level of skill will be able to sharpen them for you with consistent results.

You read my mind.  I was going to ask whether anyone had experience with other blades.  Besides the Ultima Matrix and Ultima Apex series, have you had any experience with the MK Phantom Special (chrome-plated plain carbon steel with dovetail edges) and the Eclipse Pinnacle (chrome-plated plain carbon steel with concave side honing)?  [The Titanium version of the Pinnacle with the stainless steel runner does not have concave side honing.]

[supersharp]

You read my mind.  I was going to ask whether anyone had experience with other blades.  Besides the Ultima Matrix and Ultima Apex series, have you had any experience with the MK Phantom Special (chrome-plated plain carbon steel with dovetail edges) and the Eclipse Pinnacle (chrome-plated plain carbon steel with concave side honing)?  [The Titanium version of the Pinnacle with the stainless steel runner does not have concave side honing.]

I have seen maybe 8 pairs of side-honed Eclipse Pinnacle blades over the last 10 years. The finishing seems more controlled than on the Wilson/MK blades (both owned by HD Sports now) in the sense that there have been no gouges in the blades along the chrome relief strip. They claim to use a CNC process for grinding the chrome relief, but I have seen that the  chrome relief grinding removes the flare on the blade...so there is no real benefit other than the pretty upside-down reflections that some people seem to admire so much. Also, the steel requires a very light touch when sharpening or the blade life is pretty short. That, along with the concave sides that make it difficult to know when the edges are level, make me recommend against these blades. Eclipse now makes a parallel version of the Pinnacle profile that one of our skaters switched to without knowing it, and she did not notice any difference after being on the side-honed version for about 6 years.  The other skater currently on the Pinnacle is about to get new skates and I recommended that she do the same thing, because she is in college now and can't always count on having a skate tech around that will give her level edges on the side-honed blades.

I have never seen a Phantom Special in person and there are very few photos online—I couldn't find any that give a clear view of the dovetailed edges. It seems like a significant upgrade as long as the dovetail is well-executed and not damaged with chrome relief grinding. 

The titanium version of the Pinnacle has parallel runners (made by Step) of very nice quality stainless (marketed as "Swedish Stainless runners" on the Eclipse website), same as on the Infinity Titanium, which I have sharpened several pairs of. They hold an edge about twice as long as carbon steel blades and the flow across the ice is lovely. When you compare 599$US to 2 x 420$US, the titanium version is actually a better value.  Note that they now list the regular Pinnacle as stainless, but I have only seen it in carbon steel. If it is stainless, the stainless grade is not high-polish, since they are chrome-plating the blade and grinding a chrome relief band.

The Eclipse blade page is an excellent example of what we have been discussing regarding zero technical information being available about blades. It is all dreamy talk and no real information about why you would select one blade over another. There is nothing to distinguish the difference between two blades at the same price point and perceived "level"—the Pinnacle Ti vs the Infinity Ti, for example. If I had decided that I wanted a flight weight blade with a classic look, I would be choosing between the two of these, and the only difference I can see is the cross-cut vs straight toe pick. Perhaps that is the only difference?   Both have the "striking new silhouette that aids in reducing torque while adding structural strength".  Reducing torque on what?  To what advantage?  I'm sure I am supposed to think this sounds amazing but instead I wonder what they expect the average customer to take away from that statement.  My guess is they are trying to say that they have reduced twist in the blade when torque is applied, but who knows? I can see the blade has holes in it now that will use less material, which is great if the stability of the blade hasn't been compromised in the process. What about the solid sole plates?  Wouldn't that be a good place to reduce weight (and thus use less material)?  I would love to see some actual comparisons of the added strength and stability provided by the solid sole plate instead of fancy meaningless statements.

Looking at the Eclipse website for the details revealed that they now offer a matrix-like competitor called the Quantum: 

https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/Catalog/Eclipse-Blades/Quantum-Blade

Retail cost of 310$US, not bad for a blade with an aluminum chassis and a 440C stainless runner.

[tstop4me]

* Hi supersharp.  Thanks for your experiences with the Eclipse blades.  I previously skated on the Eclipse Aurora, their copy of the Coronation Ace, except the Aurora is fabricated from mirror-polished 440C stainless steel.  At about the same price as the Coronation Ace, I thought the material and manufacturing quality was much better.  But I didn't care for the flatter spin rocker.

* The marketing material used to be more detailed.  Essentially, the Pinnacle is their copy of the Gold Seal, and the Infinity is their copy of the P99.  That's why the Pinnacle has a solid sole plate and X-cut picks, and the Infinity has a cutout on the sole plate and straight-cut picks. The Infinity also has the distinctive chisel-point top pick characteristic of the P99.  But, for some reason, Eclipse also designs these models with flatter spin rockers than their Wilson counterparts.  That's what caused me to turn reluctantly to Paramount.  They charge a huge mark-up for 440C. 

* I wonder if the current listing for the regular Pinnacle [ETA1:  and Infinity] as chrome-plated stainless steel is a typo?  Doesn't make sense to me. [ETA2:  I just noticed that the entire Eclipse line is now listed as stainless steel.]

* Yes, it is bizarre on the lightweight Titanium series how they've introduced cutouts on the stanchions of both the Pinnacle and the Infinity to further reduce weight, yet they maintain the solid sole plate on the Pinnacle.  At one time Wilson marketed the Gold Seal as one step up from the P99.  They don't anymore.  And in practice, it's a matter of personal preference among top skaters.  So, if the P99 sole plate with the cutout is strong enough for skaters doing quads, why is a solid sole plate needed for the GS? 

[supersharp]

Thanks for the info, tstop!  Now that you say that, I do remember the Infinity looking a lot like the Pattern 99.

I also wondered if the listing of stainless was a typo, particularly when they also claim to have "full silver welds".

I suspect that to some people, the solid sole plate is their indication that the blade is strong enough for them (or elite enough, in most cases).  I had one parent start putting her kids in solid sole plate blades when they were just finishing Pre-Juv moves.  They wanted their skaters to have really good equipment so there would be no risk of stress fractures and other types of injury.  I really don't think a solid sole plate is going to prevent any type of injury at all, and putting a kid in stiffer boots doesn't reduce the likelihood of injury (unless they are moving out of broken-down boots).

I had really hoped the Eclipse Aurora would be a similar replacement for the Coronation Ace, and several of our skaters have tried it...but they really are not at a point where they can identify whether they prefer one rocker to another.  They just put on what they are given next and go race around the rink in it.  For adult skaters or anyone that has been on the same blade for awhile, a new Aurora will be disappointingly similar to a worn-out Coronation Ace except that the steel is nicer and the edges have not been damaged by the chrome relief grinding.   I suppose you could take an Aurora and re-profile it to match the Coronation Ace profile better, but that is a lot of custom work.   

Any idea what the profile on the Quantum is?

[Query]

One of the reasons I stayed with parallel edge blades is because I sharpen my own blades. I think I could figure out how to sharpen side-honed ones - but unless I can convince myself there would be a significant advantage for me, I don't see any reason to bother. It's a lot easier and faster when they are parallel.

I think I could check the level with precision square - by either looking at the gap each side, and making sure they were the same, or slipping in a thin piece of paper on each side and seeing how far it would go in. But that's another step, that would waste time.

Another potential problem exists if the side honing extends down to the working edge. In particular, the width of the blade will vary with how much metal has been removed by sharpening. Not only will blade characteristics gradually shift as you use the blade, but if different amounts are removed from different portions along the length, that could create some very peculiar blade shapes, with some very peculiar characteristics. Imagine how much extra time I would need to spend sharpening my blades if had to prevent that.

Plus, a good skater can perhaps compensate for a slightly uneven edge, but if the edge level or width varies a lot down the length, and/or varies differently each time it is sharpened, they would have to keep learning to compensate every time the blade is sharpened. Unless there is a very, very good reason for it, it wouldn't be worth it.

I have little little trust I have that the average skate tech would do better than me. I might trust some of you to take the time to do it right, but many skate techs aren't adequately trained to do a good job of even basic sharpening, and they are often under big time pressure to work as fast as they can. I started to sharpen my own because even the best techs I found at the time weren't very consistent.

For a serious skater who goes from competition to competition or show to show, they may not always be able to find a good tech. (Unless they sharpen their own, which few do.)

One difference is definitely true for skate blades - if you damage a blade, some types will be easier to replace quickly than others. It would be a lot harder to replace Sport Science blades or even Gold Seals on the road, than parallel sided Coronation Aces or Pattern 99s. I'm not clear if that is important to many skaters.

I know a few travel with two complete pairs of boots and blades, so that isn't a problem, and for other reasons. But that costs a lot extra.

[tstop4me]

I suppose you could take an Aurora and re-profile it to match the Coronation Ace profile better, but that is a lot of custom work.   

Any idea what the profile on the Quantum is?

Interesting you should mention re-profiling.  I was impressed enough with the Aurora that I asked Riedell Eclipse whether they would do a custom profile for me.  They said no.

The Quantum has the same profile as the Aurora, so nominally comparable to the Coronation Ace.  Why anyone would pay $310 for the Quantum vs $240 for the Aurora beats me, though.  The benefits of lighter weight at the intermediate level escapes me.  And I prefer the traditional layout over chassis + runner.

The latest Eclipse website is chock full of errors.  From the Quantum page:


Move faster, jump higher and stay on the ice longer with the lightweight Eclipse Quantum Blade.

Precisely engineered to the highest standards, the Quantum Blade is made from a harder 6005 T/5 Aluminum and features a permanently affixed, stronger, rust-resistant 440 C Stainless Steel runner that holds an edge longer.

Its 7 foot radius allows for graceful, versatile freestyle movement and a cross-cut rake provides exceptional stability.

Enjoy the perfect combination of lightweight titanium, as well as the soft gliding on the ice with the Stainless Steel runner.

<<Emphasis Added>>



 

[supersharp]

Interesting you should mention re-profiling.  I was impressed enough with the Aurora that I asked Riedell Eclipse whether they would do a custom profile for me.  They said no.

The Quantum has the same profile as the Aurora, so nominally comparable to the Coronation Ace.  Why anyone would pay $310 for the Quantum vs $240 for the Aurora beats me, though.  The benefits of lighter weight at the intermediate level escapes me.  And I prefer the traditional layout over chassis + runner.

The latest Eclipse website is chock full of errors.  From the Quantum page:


Move faster, jump higher and stay on the ice longer with the lightweight Eclipse Quantum Blade.

Precisely engineered to the highest standards, the Quantum Blade is made from a harder 6005 T/5 Aluminum and features a permanently affixed, stronger, rust-resistant 440 C Stainless Steel runner that holds an edge longer.

Its 7 foot radius allows for graceful, versatile freestyle movement and a cross-cut rake provides exceptional stability.

Enjoy the perfect combination of lightweight titanium, as well as the soft gliding on the ice with the Stainless Steel runner.

<<Emphasis Added>>

Looks to me like the copy-and-revise system led to that mistake.  I suspect the same is true for all of the blades being listed as stainless steel.

I agree with you, the Aurora makes more sense than the Quantum unless you are worried about weight.  At the time that I had skaters using the Aurora, I didn't trace the profile, just compared it to a traced CoroAce.  Now I'm curious about the drag pick placement, and wondering if it is feasible to provide a bit more curvature at the front.

[Query]

Assume for the moment that the chassis is 6005 T/5 Aluminum, and the runner is 440C Stainless steel.

Maybe titanium is mentioned because 6005 T/5 Aluminum can have a small amount of titanium (<.1%)?:

https://www.allianceorg.com/pdfs/alumext/GradesAndProperties.pdf

What I can't figure out is whether that small amount of titanium could possibly be a good thing, in terms of strength or galvanic corrosion.

Titanium and some other "intermetallic inclusions" in aluminum are sometimes said to be bad. E.g., see

  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306292737_Final_Report_on_Effect_of_Impurities_in_Aluminum

and some articles say that intermetallic inclusions in aluminum can make it more vulnerable to galvanic corrosion.

But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_carbide says that aluminum carbide inclusions reduce aluminum's tendency to creep (gradually deform).

And 6xxx series aluminum alloys can sometimes be precipitation hardened, which might mean the blade wouldn't distort too much during impact.
  https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/6000-series-alloy

(Note however that carbon is not listed as a deliberate component of 6005 T5 Aluminum.) And aluminum is sometimes deliberately added to titanium alloys. (At very different aluminum and titanium percentages of course.)

Of course people have learned to consider "titanium" an expensive lightweight corrosion resistant very strong substance, and perhaps that is why they choose to advertise it. Obviously, it wouldn't actually have to be good, nor would its inclusion have to be deliberate, to be advertised. Normal people reading the ad will assume that it is, and that might be all that matters to the people writing the ads.

In other words, the mention of titanium in the ad might be another attempt to use the placebo effect. We can't even know whether the people who wrote the ad understood why the titanium is present.


But could someone who understands metallurgy say whether the titanium content in such blades could possibly be a good thing?


There is another possibility. Perhaps the screws are titanium. (Incidentally many articles say aluminum/titanium welds are weakened by galvanic corrosion. Not sure if that would be relevant to using titanium screws through an aluminum chassis.)

[supersharp]

Interesting trip down the rabbit hole, but I seriously doubt it is anything other than sloppy editing.  It's very unlikely people writing the descriptions on the web page don't have this level of understanding of metallurgy. 

[Kaitsu]

It is interesting that for the MK blades you will get 12 months warranty when for Wilson blades you will get lifetime warranty.  Lifetime warranty is something what think no any other blade manufacturer will give. I am quite sure that this 12 month warranty limitation in MK web pages was not there about one month ago. But I might be also wrong.

https://www.mkblades.com/our-promise
https://www.johnwilsonskates.com/our-promise

What about the solid sole plates?  Wouldn't that be a good place to reduce weight (and thus use less material)?  I would love to see some actual comparisons of the added strength and stability provided by the solid sole plate instead of fancy meaningless statements

Imagine that you have two piece of sheet metal and you should bend them from the middle. One is 50mm long and another is 85mm long. Which one need more force to bend to same amount? 
Even there is gap between the stanchions (not brazed to sole plate) I strongly believe solid toe plate increases its strength. I do have one very recent case where landing (right) foot sole plate was heavily deformed. See attached picture which is taken from 16 years old girl blades. If you wonder if such damage is covered by life time warranty, it is not because it's not manufacturing defect.

10" Gold Seal has same weight as 10" Coronation Ace. This means that solid sole plate weight is compensated with side honing. If someone has recorded weights of factory new blades, we can do some information trade.

If you are interested about re-profiling of blade, I recommend taking contact to Precision Blade Honing Enterprises. I have been in Brian´s training where he told story how Patrik Chan liked JW side honed blades, because they flex more than parallel blades, but he liked more some MK blade profile (or opposite). Brian made special blades for Patrik by re-profiling the side honed blades. In theory this sounds easy if you just have patterns what to use as a grinding template, but I do not understand how toe picks position can be kept correct if you have standard blades and you remove quite a lot of material in re-profiling.

I have always wondered if blades which are said to be made from Titanium are really solid Titanium. Titanium sounds so expensive material that I would expect blade price to be so high that they are out of normal skater budget. If someone has scrapped Titanium blades, I can investigate what they truly are made. I just need small piece from the blade.

[supersharp]

I agree that the solid sole plate would be stronger, I'm just curious how much stronger it is.  It should resist some types of deformation better than other types, and it would be interesting to see which forces it withstands better.

For example, it seems like it would be a better choice for the skater who deformed the sole plate in your photo.

Does the solid sole plate help resist torsional deformation?  When you mount blades and don't shim all the gaps between the boot sole and the sole plates, the blade gets pulled toward the boot sole.  Many of the blades that I mount sit higher on one side of the plate than on the other side, meaning that there is a bigger gap under the blade on the inside or outside of the sole plate, which is often not the same on the front sole plate and the heel plate.  If this gap is not the same on both plates and I just tighten the screws to attach the blade, the blade will twist to lay flat. I have observed this by laying flat bars on the blade before and after tightening the screws, and the blade twists due to the uneven pull.  The unsupported distance between the sole plates allows this to happen, which is why I stopped following the training I was originally given (just tighten it down, the boot will conform to the blade, don't worry about it, it will be fine!) and started shimming under the sole plates so that the blade does not twist.   I have noticed that the parallel blades with solid sole plates seem to be more torsionally stable than other parallel blades, but I am really comparing peaches to nectarines here.  They are similar but really not the same thing.

In my experience, the side-honed blades are less torsionally stable, probably due to the thinner cross section in that unsupported length of the blade.  Mounting side-honed blades takes patience.  The worst is parabolic blades...they have that thin unsupported waist that has a hard time resisting twist when you add the screws. Fortunately only a couple of skaters here have parabolics and they don't skate very often, so mounting new blades only happens every 5 or 6 years.

I sharpened an Ultima Apex Elite blade yesterday for a skater going back to college.  She is on a national-level collegiate team and her blades were sharpened by the team tech.  The boots and blades are relatively new, probably got them in May and then we had no ice until a few weeks ago, so she hadn't skated on them much.  The left blade was mounted on a curve and the sharpening was atrocious.  Due to the curve (and not having the blade in a holder that could straighten it out while sharpening), with the front and back were low on the outside edge and the center was low on the inside edge--both by quite a bit. Unfortunately, solid sole plates can't prevent the blade from being pulled into a curve when the screws are driven at an angle and pull the center of the blade sideways. [And apparently being the skate tech for a high-level synchro team does not require much understanding of blades.  The skater said she is afraid to get her skates sharpened at school but can't make it for a whole semester without needing a sharpening.  Both times the team sharpener has had them, they were scary to skate on.]

None of our skaters wear Paramount or Matrix blades, but I imagine that the thicker chassis would be great for reducing twist and curvature.  Since none of the coaches use them, none of the skaters do...

[Query]

Imagine that I will sharpen your skates and I do following kind of grinding to your blades. Can you list two clear problems what you can see on the attached sketch?

I looked again at your earlier post and tried to figure out what you were picturing. The problem is, I'm not sure how carefully you drew your diagram, so I'm not sure if some of this is misinterpreted.

1. The sharpener did not finish sharpening. It's like they took an insufficient number of passes with a grinding stone or wheel. Hence there are no edges. So the blade is not sharp, by any reasonable definition. There are people who manage to skate on very dull edges. But that isn't what people who bring blades to skate techs usually want. It certainly isn't what I would want.

2. The sides are not parallel, but are dovetail cut. Meaning that they are narrower towards the bottom. I think that is what you intended, but it isn't "clear" - one can only see it by looking at it in careful detail, or taking a measurement. However, if my understanding is correct, that isn't the way dovetail cuts are done. In your case, the sides are still straight. But if I understand correctly, the normal way to create a dovetail cut is to "hollow grind" the sides - i.e., you use something akin to a milling machine to create a concave hollow down the sides - somewhat like the hollow at the bottom. However, I suppose a blade could be dovetail cut that way.

I am curious: what type of tool could be used to create this type of dovetail cut?

3. The flat part on the bottom would normally exist only on a new blade, or a blade on which a skate tech used a cross grinding wheel in a very efficient manner, to create a flat surface to simplify the centering of the longitudinal grind wheel. The former isn't consistent with the rounded corners at the bottom - if the bottom were only worn, it would be ragged, just like the bottom rounded corners are. The latter removes a lot of metal, and in my view is not necessary.

(Incidentally, the rounded corners are ragged. Raggedness does happen in the real world, but I'm not sure if you meant to draw it - in cross sectional diagrams like this, people usually round them off perfectly, reflecting the fact that there are an infinite number of cross sections along the length of the blade, so that the shown cross section is an average, or that it is an idealization. In fact, it might just be an image compression artifact. [I used to develop and implement image compression and decompression algorithms. )

4. If the latter is correct, and the skate tech created the flat at the bottom, the skate tech failed to take the dovetail cut into account, so they ground the bottom flat at right angles to what appears in the diagram as the left side. Of course that is not at right angles to the right side. Which would defeat the purpose of grinding the bottom flat, because it would still be somewhat hard to center the wheel on the blade.

I suppose that if you mounted a blade in a holder that was only designed for parallel sided blades, this could occur. In particular, if the holder allowed a side honed blade to rock in angle a bit, and you rested the blade on the horizontal table which many sharpening machines have, that would cause the bottom grind to be at right angles to the side the blade rested on. Is that what you meant to show?

But again, that angular difference is not "clear" - you have to look or measure very carefully to see it. So I'm not sure that is what you meant to show.

5. It appears that the sharpener did not correctly center the hollow grind at the bottom of the blade, because they adjusted the height of the wheel incorrectly. If the skate tech completed the sharpening, there would therefore be uneven edges. I'm not sure if you drew that on purpose.  But perhaps you were trying to show what happens if a skate tech tries to use the flat bottom (which in this case is tilted, because of the asymmetric angles mentioned above) to center the wheel. But again, that off-center grind is not "clear" - you have to look or measure very carefully to see it. So I'm not sure that is what you meant to draw.

6. But there is another interpretation to the tilted flat bottom. Perhaps it was created by normal wear by the skater, and you didn't bother to show the raggedness. In which case, the skater routinely uses their inside edge much more than their outside edge (as is common for beginners, and for many hockey skaters). Or, they center their skating on the edges they have, which were previously ground asymmetrically.

In other words, I'm not sure how to interpret your drawing, because I'm not sure which features were deliberate. The only part that is "clear" to the naked eye is that the skate tech did not finish sharpening the blade, so the blade is very, very dull.


Of course, it is possible for some accomplished skaters to compensate for uneven edges, though I admit I find it difficult to do so. And there is no reason to force them do so.

More importantly, it is possible for extremely good skaters to avoid skidding on dull edges if they very carefully align their weight (+ centrifugal force from skating on arcs) over the edges, but a less accomplished skater like me would skid all over the place on this blade.

Even before I started sharpening my own blades, if a skate tech had delivered blades to me in this condition, they would never have gotten my business again.

But I assume a skate tech as careful are as you are would sharpen side honed blades much better than this.

[tstop4me]

It is interesting that for the MK blades you will get 12 months warranty when for Wilson blades you will get lifetime warranty.  Lifetime warranty is something what think no any other blade manufacturer will give. I am quite sure that this 12 month warranty limitation in MK web pages was not there about one month ago. But I might be also wrong.

https://www.mkblades.com/our-promise
https://www.johnwilsonskates.com/our-promise

* Here is the full text of the current MK Lifetime Promise (from the website you cited):

"Our blades are designed for longevity and to endure the stresses of world-class competition. But, in the unlikely event of a problem all our products are covered by a global 12 month manufacturing warranty.

As an added bonus and for total peace of mind, send us your completed warranty card or register online and you'll be covered by our extended and unrivalled lifetime promise warranty."  <<Emphasis added>>

Note that you can get a "lifetime promise warranty" on MK by registering your warranty.  Your guess is as good as mine as to what constitutes a "lifetime promise warranty".

* Here is the full text of the current Wilson Lifetime Promise (from the website you cited):

"Our blades are designed for longevity and to endure the stresses of world-class competition. But, in the unlikely event of a problem, all our products are covered by a global lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects."   <<Emphasis added>>

Note that registering your warranty is not required.  And you get an explicit "global lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects".

* I recalled a previous discussion on the vagueness of "lifetime promise".  Here's the thread from 2015:  https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6901.msg82354#msg82354.  The current MK wording [ETA:  with minor changes] was used by both MK and Wilson back then.  For the sake of simplicity and clarity, let's hope that the current MK wording will be revised to the current Wilson wording.  Since MK and Wilson are both owned by the same parent (HD Sports), that would be logical.  But marketing guys often aren't.

[Kaitsu]

You went more further in your evaluation than I expected. However if I pick words from here and there, I can find the answers what I was looking for. Your last quoted sentence indicates that you would not be very happy to my sharpening. I would not either.

1. There are no edges. So the blade is not sharp, by any reasonable definition.

3. The flat part on the bottom, rounded corners at the bottom.

If a skate tech had delivered blades to me in this condition, they would never have gotten my business again.

I made my sketch to be in purpose a bit mystery. Whom would really make such a sharpening. In some reason hollow (concave) affect is more easier to understand if it is in the bottom of the blade. If hollow is made to side surfaces, people does have huge difficulties to understand that concave shape behaves basically same way as ROH in the bottom of the blade. If the concave shape is not going in to the corner of blade, how that could improve the bite compared to normal parallel blades?

If the corner is also rounded, you have actually convex shape instead of concave which will make bite even worst than what it would be in parallel blades without chrome removal. If you take a look carefully parallel blades with chrome removal grinding, chrome removal is angled to get smooth transition to the chromed area. Such a angled grinding does not exist example in Paramount skates blades where both side surfaces are grinder with surface grinder, just like hockey blades. That method guarantees that side surfaces are flat / parallel.

Right now I don't have access to my other computer to make more beautiful sketches. I simply edited my previous sketch with Paint. I rotated my sketch 90 degrees so that the bottom of the skate presents now side honing. I made new "sharpening" by adding a hollow to the bottom of the blade and right side of the sketch I cut be flat, which presents the Paramount skates parallel blade. The red lines represent the "bite angle".

Imagine that the red lines are representing  edges of two different kitchen knife. If you want to cut nice thin slices from salmon, which one cuts better, left or right knife?

People are paying a lot of attention to ROH grinding, but also side surfaces matters. Try to draw sketches which edge is actually in contact when you are doing example death spiral. I have never seen that skater could keep blade in 90 degrees angle to ice in that moment. Death spiral is just a extreme example, but helps to understand that side surfaces angles also matters.

Lesson learned is that side honing will not automatically mean higher bite (greetings to coach Aimée, PSA and other experts whom has trainer and review her training materials). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6CdHJyHdQg

You will get higher bite only if concave (or dovetail) shape goes all the way to the edges. This will not materialize in all manufacturers blades. Same affect you will get also by making dovetail shape. You could say that side honing presents a traditional ROH grinding when dovetail machining is equal with FBV sharpening.

To make dovetail machining, you will need 5-axis milling machine and dovetail milling tool. Use google to see pictures and watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGD4ZoaLp5w

Basically you could use 5-axis machine and traditional end mill cutter, but then also end of the milling is angled same amount as dovetail machining.

[supersharp]

Good sketch, it really shows the big issues with side-honed blades with chrome relief grinding. And skaters are paying more to have this feature added to their blade. 

[Query]

Of course, there is another problem: "Side honing" isn't a specific term. There is vertical side honing, and horizontal side honing. There is what I guess you might call structural side honing, where you make the upper part of the runner thinner where the stresses are less (e.g., near the stanchions).

In any even, Bill_S, you started this thread to decide whether you liked Gold Seal or Pattern 99 better. Do I understand that you eventually settled on the Gold Seals?

But that it might have been as much the difference in rocker profile as the side honing?

EDIT Oops. You already partly answered this in reply 16 of this thread - you said the (dovetail) side honing on your Gold Seals didn't extend to the working part of the blade. But you said it had tapered side honing too.

Do you find it much harder to sharpen the Gold Seals? Or does having the right blade holder make it easy?

Did you ever get more into ice dance, and do you use different blades for that?

[Kaitsu]

Query,

Could you do a small research and list all manufacturers web pages where they say that their blades are side honed. Do not list skate shops web pages, only blade manufacturers.

I am glad that you have finally noted that most of the things what I have explained / sketched are already explained by Bill in his earlier post. I hope its now clear to you what I want to demonstrate on my video.

You might be interested about this link: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter-Federolf/publication/5243786_Ice_friction_of_flared_ice_hockey_skate_blades/links/0912f505b52ea7bed3000000/Ice-friction-of-flared-ice-hockey-skate-blades.pdf

[Bill_S]

Query: I skated mostly on the Pattern 99 blades last year. My Gold Seals were not as badly made as those shown by Kaitsu but still didn't take full advantage of the side honing for edge shape. I've come to believe that Pattern 99s make the most sense for me.

With my skate holder, I could sharpen Gold Seals without trouble. The only issue is that I had to use a different method for determining even edges because of the curved side hone. I have to reach beyond the curve to the flat stanchions to find a perpendicular reference surface, but a small square combined with one component of my level-edge checker works fine.  It just takes a little longer to check the work as I go.

I did not get further into ice dance here. There is no coach for it. On top of that, my right knee troubles began last season. I am having a difficult time even walking right now, so I probably won't delve deeply into it, if at all, in the future.

If you do research into side honed blades as Kaitsu suggested, please start a new thread for it. It's much easier to search for that information if it's in a dedicated thread.

[supersharp]

Of course, there is another problem: "Side honing" isn't a specific term. There is vertical side honing, and horizontal side honing. There is what I guess you might call structural side honing, where you make the upper part of the runner thinner where the stresses are less (e.g., near the stanchions).

In general, when discussing blades, the term "side-honed" is used to describe grinding the two sides of the blade so that the blade is thicker at the edges and upper stanchions and thinner through the body of the blade, as shown in Kaitsu's recent sketch.

To reduce confusion, a blade that is ground so that it's sides remain parallel but it is thicker at its ends and thinner at its center is referred to as "parabolic", a name taken from the same concept used in ski shape. 

Of course there is not going to be 100% consistent use of this terminology in the industry but it is a common and reasonable way to differentiate the two designs without having to re-describe the axis of grinding each time.  It's probably simplest for us to use these terms for discussion purposes.

[Query]

Except that you can find other place where "side honing" refers to horizontally side honed (parabolic and tapered blades). (And oddly enough, some "tapered" blades have been thicker at the front, and some have been thicker at the back. I still don't understand what the trade-offs of these shapes are supposed to provide. The blade companies can be surprisingly non-specific.)

For a while at least, MK and JW used another word than "parabolic", for a proprietary but similar shape. I think they claimed it was better than "parabolic" blades.

And at least at one point, Jackson Ultima used another word for their own dovetail cut blades. I think Graf did too. In fact, I don't recall any blade maker using "dovetail cut". But some people on this forum started using it, and I thought it was a better term, because, in carpentry, it has a fairly specific meaning, unlike "side honing", which can mean so many things.

It would be nice if blade companies would agree to standardize the terms for similar things. But a lot of blade companies love to use their own terms (sometimes trademarked) for blade shapes and characteristics. Of course that isn't unique to the skate blade industry. But it is hard for the consumer to figure out what would work best for them, if they all use different terms.

[supersharp]

As I said, the terminology is not completely consistent, and I agree that silly names are attached to the same features for marketing purposes.  But for the purposes of better communication at least on this forum, it makes sense to have some standard terminology.

What blades have been thicker at the back (other than parabolics, which are thicker at the back than at the waist)? 

Thicker at the front gives more bite at the front and less at the back, theoretically to help you with maneuverability at the front of the blade and better grip on jump touch-downs, and then more flow and less sinking into the ice (and thus more speed) on the thinner back of the blade to flow out of jumps and for faster crossovers. 

The claim on parabolics is that they naturally recenter you at the middle of the blade, although I never felt like that happened when I had them.  I had exactly the same tendency to be just a little too far forward on the blade on the parabolic CoroAce as I did with the parallel version.  I have a better balance point on the SkateScience blades.  I changed blades without changing boots, so I know that it was the blade design that affected this.  I also changed from SkateScience Dance to Synchro blades (tiny bit lower rear stanchion) and this was even better.  It just seems to suit my natural balance point better.

This is why I don't think skaters should be put on the blade their coach wears when they "upgrade" but should be assessed to see if there is a blade that suits them better than what they are using.  For example, Pattern 99 vs Gold Seal...big difference in the design of the front profile of the blade.  If a skater in the P99 is having a hard time because the P99 profile starts too far under the ball of the foot and they can't get to the middle or back of the blade without a struggle (as evidenced by seeming to always be scratching their toe picks), maybe the MK Pro/Gold Seal profile would work better for them.  We all have a natural balance point, and that balance point needs to be over a neutral part of the blade so that we can choose to move forward or back on the blade for whatever purpose.  If you are stuck too far into the spin rocker all the time, a different blade might help.

I have never skated on tapered blades, but my coach has them and our feet are the same size...so I am planning to try them out when I have a chance to see if I feel the difference. 

[Kaitsu]

Pattern 99 vs Gold Seal comparison in video format. https://youtu.be/wM1sWE20Rug