Gold Seal vs. Pattern 99 blade comparison

[tstop4me]

While it's a long blade, longer than the Pattern 99, the extra length of the GS can be dealt with in the shop.

If you're considering shortening the tail, you might want to hit the pause button, since it would not be an easily reversible operation.  My coach loves the GS for two main reasons:  the pronounced spin rocker (which I'm not sure you have on your used blades) and the longer tail.  The longer tail allows you to lean back more during backward strokes, allowing deeper edges and more power.  You might want to play around with that.

[Bill_S]

Thanks for the concern. I consider myself to have strong backward crossovers, and have not had trouble with them using much shorter dance blades. My bigger fear is that I could tangle tails doing backward cross strokes and take a backward tumble. The long tails on the GS blades had already caused a couple of near-misses after they "clicked" together.

If shortening them does prove to be a problem, I could buy another pair.

[Query]

I too would personally hesitate to shorten blades. It seems like you haven't had enough time to get used to your new blades, might therefore still change your mind, and like the previous poster said, it is a non-reversible operation.

An interesting footnote to long vs short tails: Most freestyle skaters lean backwards while skating forwards, and vice versa. Many but not all ice dancers do the exact reverse, perhaps to look more like ballroom dance. Also, freestyle skaters tend to push directly sideways during forward and backwards strokes, whereas the ice dance style is quite different. I think ice dancers typically push about 45 degrees diagonally back during forwards strokes. Partly a "look" thing rather than an efficiency thing, but it also helps avoid running into your partners skates. And during backwards strokes, they typically using a very different style, in which the pushing foot is turned, sometimes at right angles, across the gliding foot. Again, I think it is partly "look", and partly to avoid running into your partners blades.

Those things might affect how much of the blade you use while skating forwards and backwards, and, done right, might eliminate the need to shorten your blades.

I've met a lot of ice dancers who skate on standard freestyle blades, and some people in this forum do so. With the "right" style perhaps you don't need to shorten your blades.

Just a thought. You would be better off discussing it with a better skater than me, like a coach.

[Isk8NYC]

I had a convo on social media with someone who bought/acquired Pattern 99 Revolutions with a Gold Seal rocker.  It's a special-order item from Wilson.  One of the elite ISU finalists has them as well.

I like the longer tails on the Gold Seals - with the Patt99's, I rocked off the shorter tails several times, but I usually wear GS's, so it was probably an adjustment thing.

[Bill_S]

Interesting about the special order rockers. I'll bet that's pricey.

I remember your stated preference for the longer GS blades over the 1/4" shorter Pattern 99 from another thread. That's when I realized that blade length can be a personal preference. I never had that feeling of sliding off the back of the blade, even on the very short dance blades that I tried.

[Query]

A longer blade should be faster, and give longer glides, because each stroke (or sideways push) can generate push over a longer roll. It can also make use of a larger portion of your muscles, because different stages in the push make use of different portions of your muscles. Some of my ice dance coaches advocated a full length roll for that reason. The people who taught me a little about speed skating said they did that too - and those blades are much longer.

I don't often fall backwards on figure, but I've sometimes fall backwards off hockey blades, which are also much shorter.

That said, I am sufficiently clumsy that short tails on figure skate mostly benefit me. I've stepped on my other blade during a simple Mohawk. And I once accidentally tripped an ice dance partner (Very, very bad form! And she could have been hurt.), though I don't recall any more whether the back of the blade played a roll.

All I'm saying is that you might wish to give those expensive blades a couple months of practice before butchering them.

[Bill_S]

For anyone who is interested, I have placed spreadsheets of my rocker measurements on my web site. I have sheets for all blades in one folder, including those from other threads on this forum.

To see them all and to download one or more of them for your own purposes (i.e. calculating rocker radii at different locations or using different points), go to...

http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/rocker_spreadsheets/

When I click on a filename in Firefox, I'm offered a choice to download it. In other browsers, it might take a right-click.

[tstop4me]

Thanks.  Got them OK.

[tstop4me]

That's when I realized that blade length can be a personal preference.

Definitely a wide variation in personal preference.  My last blade switch was from the Eclipse Aurora (nominal copy of Wilson Coronation Ace) to the Paramount Freestyle 12" (nominal copy of the Wilson Gold Seal).  The longer tail on the Paramount has helped my backward skating a lot; but that's mainly due to my coach's instructional style:  she shouts out to me, "Lean back more!  You've got a longer blade now!  Don't be afraid to use all of it!"

I didn't have any problems clacking tails on back cross-overs.  My one substantial adjustment was on T-Stops.  The first time I tried on the Paramount, I brought the edge of my rear (stopping) blade onto the top of the tail of my front (gliding) blade, instead of onto the ice.  Fortunately, I was doing a gentle stop; no fall.  The 8' rocker and the longer tail helped keep my gliding blade stable and averted a nasty backwards fall.  Also, since the chassis of the Paramount is a relatively soft aluminum alloy, there was no damage (not even a minor nick) to the 440C SS edge on the rear blade; only an inconsequential nick to the chassis.  I quickly re-adjusted my T-Stop technique to keep that contact from happening again.

[Bill_S]

I didn't have any problems clacking tails on back cross-overs.

Just to clarify, I didn't have any problem with back cross-overs either. It was the back cross-strokes (alternating back outside edges where the transitional free foot crosses behind the skater onto a new outside edge) where I had the concern. I also clicked blades on tight Mohawks.

BTW, I've looked at another skater's Eclipse Mist blades which were compared by Riedell to Aces, and they have much thinner blades. I'm guessing blade thickness is around 0.140". While Riedell compared Mists to Wilson Coronation Ace blades, I suspect that it's an original design and not a knock-off copy of the Ace. It's being sold in the same performance range as the Ace, hence Riedell's chart comparing the two blades' features. The adult skater who skates in them loves them. When she needs a sharpening, I'll examine them more closely for rocker differences.

Mists are discontinued now, but some sizes are still available from a handful of online sellers. I went to the Wayback Machine site to find the old Riedell information for it from 2015....

https://web.archive.org/web/20150216035530/http://ice.riedellskates.com/products/blades/mist/

[Bill_S]

I shortened the tails of the Gold Seal blades to ready them for mounting. See this thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8487.0

However I'm still torn about which blade to mount. I really like the Pattern 99 now, but I said that about the Gold Seal previously. Maybe I'll just flip a coin.

[Nate]

The biggest difference I feel between these two types of blades is not the length of the blade, but the height of the blade.  Gold Seals have higher stanchions than Pattern 99s, and this changes everything, for me.  Jump Takeoffs (ESP. Toe Jumps), Spin Entrances, Crossovers, Turns, Edges, etc.  Even basic skating.

Depending on your skill level and how often you skate, you might want to give yourself a few weeks to acclimate them.

Best thing to do is have two boots and just mount one blade on each.  That's what I did.  Now, I just swap whenever I see fit.  It takes me 10 minutes to adjust to any different boots/blades now, since I've been through so many :-P

[tstop4me]

I shortened the tails of the Gold Seal blades to ready them for mounting. See this thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8487.0

However I'm still torn about which blade to mount. I really like the Pattern 99 now, but I said that about the Gold Seal previously. Maybe I'll just flip a coin.

<<Emphasis added>>  Now that's a surprise.  I thought you would have decided on the GS before you shortened the tails.  But perhaps subconsciously you already have made your decision:  You can still readily sell your P99 if you wish; probably a lot harder to sell your shortened GS; so rather than let the shortened GS lie idle, you'll mount them and skate on them.

[MCsAngel2]

Best thing to do is have two boots and just mount one blade on each.  That's what I did.  Now, I just swap whenever I see fit.  It takes me 10 minutes to adjust to any different boots/blades now, since I've been through so many :-P

He DOES have two pairs of new boots!! He just tried out so many blades that he still has to decide between them all. I think he said he was putting dance blades on the other boots.

[Bill_S]

To tell you the truth, I did it because it might force a decision.

I was grumpy with myself for being on the fence between the two blades. In a fit of frustration, I thought that this would help me decide.

Now I'm thinking that instead of mounting the Eclipse Dance blades on the 2010 Fusion boots, that I might further shorten the Gold Seals to dance blade length and use those instead. I'd still have the Pattern 99 blades on the Silver Stars.

However grinding off another inch or so from each blade will take an awfully long time to do, and I wouldn't look forward to doing that. Even at the current length, the blade's rear mounting plate was starting to interfere with the tool rest. It will limit my ability to grind more unless I modify the grinder.

[tstop4me]

However grinding off another inch or so from each blade will take an awfully long time to do, and I wouldn't look forward to doing that. Even at the current length, the blade's rear mounting plate was starting to interfere with the tool rest. It will limit my ability to grind more unless I modify the grinder.

That would be an awful lot of grinding (X2).  Is one of your grinders equipped with a continuous water cooling tray?  If so, you could check whether it could be outfitted with a thin abrasive cutoff wheel, instead of a standard grinder wheel; i.e., convert the grinder to a temporary abrasive chop saw.  Rather than grinding off an inch or so, cut off a bit less than an inch, and then do a finish grind as before.

[Bill_S]

I do have a water-bath grinder, but it runs at a very slow speed (90 RPM). If I could find a wheel to fit, it might take a while to cut.

I was also wondering about a wet tile or masonry cutter. I'll bet the abrasive wheels would take a beating doing hardened steel though.

[tstop4me]

I was also wondering about a wet tile or masonry cutter. I'll bet the abrasive wheels would take a beating doing hardened steel though.

That should work.  A variety of blades are available for ceramic tile, which vary a lot in hardness and density.  The blades designed for hard, dense ceramic (such as fired porcelain) should work on hardened steel (especially since you're doing relatively short cuts).  I assume you want to avoid buying a blade specifically for hardened steel since this is a one-off job (assuming you can get one with the right mounting hole).  So if you have access to a colleague with a wet tile saw and the right blade, you can save yourself a lot of grinding.

[Bill_S]

I was thinking renting to save purchasing, although I've seen them advertised for sale for $100. I'll check out the local "maker's space" for options too.

Hey, this could be another side business - skate blade nips and tucks to expand the range for ice dancers. (mostly joking)

At this point, I think that I'll mount the P99 on the Silver Star, and mount the GS in it's slightly modified form on the 2010 Fusion. I could shorten it to dance length later if I desired.

The toe picks on the GS are less aggressive than the P99, better for dance, so that's the logical route.

[tstop4me]

At this point, I think that I'll mount the P99 on the Silver Star, and mount the GS in it's slightly modified form on the 2010 Fusion. I could shorten it to dance length later if I desired.

The toe picks on the GS are less aggressive than the P99, better for dance, so that's the logical route.

So, it's thumbs down for Eclipse Dance?

[Bill_S]

I'd put them on in a heartbeat except for one thing - I couldn't spin in them.

You can see my dilemma.

[Query]

You can buy relatively inexpensive diamond dust abrasive saw blades, in circular and straight shapes, from places like Home Depot. I wonder how well they cut hardened steel. I assume it isn't just the abrasive - the adhesive holding the dust might need to be strong too.

Even your not-so-favorite source, Harbor Freight: https://www.harborfreight.com/search?order=price-low&q=diamond%20blade   

Dremel has little diamond cutting wheels too. Might something that small wear out before you finished cutting two blades?

Some people have been horrified when hockey-trained techs rounded off the backs of their figure skating blades. Imagine what they would say of a skate tech who cut or ground off as much as you will off of their top-of-the-line freestyle blades! 

Are you sure you need the toe picks?

[icedancer]

I'd put them on in a heartbeat except for one thing - I couldn't spin in them.

You can see my dilemma.

If you ever see fit to sell them I am definitely interested!
Thanks.

[Kaitsu]

In many cases claiming that side honing improves the bite is just marketing people nice theories. Just like Bill has noted, this nice theory is probably crushed with chrome removal grinding process. However 99% of people want to still believe more to marketing hype rather than facts. If the side surface from the edge what you use for skating is convex and not concave like they want you to believe, its for sure that it will not increase bite affect.

https://youtu.be/zPbp-xwWUNo

[Bill_S]

That video shows the issue quite convincingly. The potential for greater grip is ruined by some poor manufacturing steps.