My visit to the new Harlick Factory

[nicklaszlo]

I happened to be nearby so I went to the Harlick factory to see what it's like.  Also, expert fitters are scarce in Australia so it was good to see one.

It's easy to get there on CalTrain. 

The factory was not fully installed, so they weren't able to do the full boot making process at that time.  But I did see a cool machine.

The owners are very nice.  They have some good memorabilia on display.  They showed me the Michelle Kwan/Chen Lu boot last.  They said they had a picture of my coach wearing Harlicks, but actually it was a picture of Aljona Savchenko, which was pretty funny.

Interesting advice I got:
1.  Use a fan to dry your boots.
2.  Use Snoseal or Kiwi neutral wax, not polish, on the soles, unless you got the chem glaze finish.  Personally I have always ignored this advice because my boot uppers wear out before the soles rot (I've never had Harlicks)
3.  Heat mold even if you don't feel like you need it.
4.  Flex notches reduce the life of the boot.  This is a big deal for me because I crease boots really fast.
5.  They deliberately don't make the backstays that stiff.  They're definitely less stiff than the backstays on other boots I've owned.  This makes since to me because the backstays don't wear out.

My observation:  The leather coated tongues looked a lot more durable than the polyurethane or lambs wool.

Probably I'll buy some really expensive custom boots from them eventually, but I'm just about to switch into my fourth pair of Risports, so I don't need them for a bit.  My hope is that they'll last longer than the Risports, making up for the cost difference.

[tstop4me]

3.  Heat mold even if you don't feel like you need it.

That's interesting.  Did they explain why?  Jackson has the opposite advice; something along the lines of (don't remember the exact words from one of their videos), "If they fit fine, you don't need to heat mold them.  Don't insist on heat molding just because there's a hang-tag on the boots that reads, 'Heat Moldable'."

4.  Flex notches reduce the life of the boot.  This is a big deal for me because I crease boots really fast.

Ditto for this one.  Any explanation or comparative results provided?  Seems odd to me.  I thought the flex notches would reduce local stress and prolong the life of the boot.  I've considered flex notches as an example of an advancement in boot design arising from a flash of insight, easy to implement without complex technology.

[nicklaszlo]

No, I don't have more detail.  He suggested that lack of heat molding was among the causes of my bunions.  Personally I think having a really wide forefoot in stock boots is the main cause.

[Bill_S]

I am also surprised at the flex-notch/boot crease comment. I have found that my boots with flex notches are LESS creased despite wearing them much longer than non-flex notch boots. However there could be other factors that enter into it.

It's an imperfect comparison, but this is my experience with creases in a 2003 Riedell Goldstar. I skated in it for 4 years. It did not have a flex notch...



(Riedell Goldstars, 2003 model, no flex notch, worn for 4 years of seasonal skating, ~15 hours per week in season)

Compare that with my current Goldstars purchased new in 2007 (12 years ago!) just after flex notches were introduced...



(Riedell Goldstars, 2007 model, with flex notch, worn for 12 years of seasonal skating, ~15 hours per week when new, now down to 7 hours per week in season)

This appears to contradict what the boot maker told you. This is a very small sample for drawing conclusions though. There are other obvious design changes (and likely some hidden changes) in the boot that may have contributed to the difference. This discrepancy is fascinating.

It was a very interesting conversation that you had with Harlick, and thanks for reporting on it here.

[Query]

> Flex notches reduce the life of the boot.  This is a big deal for me because I crease boots really fast.
...Any explanation or comparative results provided?  Seems odd to me.  I thought the flex notches would reduce local stress and prolong the life of the boot.  I've considered flex notches as an example of an advancement in boot design arising from a flash of insight, easy to implement without complex technology.

It's possible that boot makers don't test everything they "know", but base some of their advise on what they believe to be general principles. Even a very experienced expert can be wrong.

But consider one possibility: when you relief that stress, created by bending the boot, with the flex notch, the boot can bend more. Maybe adhesive-stiffened-leather (which, as near as I can tell, is stiffened by making it more difficult for leather fibers to slide against each other, though I might have that wrong - I am basing it on what I have read, that you oil leather to make it more flexible, by letting the fibers slide against each other more easily), and the other stiffening structures inside the boot, can only bend more so many times without starting to break down.

As a rough analogy, if you were to look at a weight bearing bridge, and were to take away the part of the structure that supports most of the weight, the bridge might collapse. Also, if you bend it too often and too much, the adhesion between the leather fibers, both natural and adhesive enhanced, should break down, and the stiffened leather should lose its compression resistance, and a crease can develop. That applies to tension structures, like a suspension bridge too - you don't necessarily make them stronger by removing the strands that hold most of the tension. At least I don't think so, though I'm not an engineer.

Think of it like a resin-stiffened fiberglass (or other resin-stiffened-fiber composite) ultralight boat or ultralight aircraft. You need the adhesion to block the material's natural flexibility, as well as to provide resistance to compression. (Ultralight boats and ultralight aircraft are made stiff and strong without much weight by balancing a tensile resistant element against a compression resistant element. Such a cool idea! Of course, they do eventually break down, but there are big advantages to lightweight craft.) if some of the resin breaks down from excess flexing (as it eventually does on composite whitewater kayaks, though BTW, polyethylene has largely replaced composites on consumer market boats, because it is more resilient), the structure of the boat or aircraft is likely to crack.

I believe an inward crease is caused by compressive pressure when a foot bend pushes the boot to bend. If you can convert compression of that part of the boot by tension, by filling the presumed point of empty space or reduced outward pressure, it  can't bend inwards, and no inward crease can form - or at least it will take a lot more time.

So, it seems to me that, for the most part, an inward crease such as Bill's pictures show, can only occur if there is insufficient outwards pressure from the foot there, because of a poor 3D fit. A heat mold could in theory alleviate that poor fit to some extent, though if you do too many heat molds on the same boot, that will obviously eventually beak down the leather. I have also sometimes applied adhesive foam inside the boot, to equalize the outwards pressure from the foot to the boot, and eliminate the local low pressure point - i.e., applying tension to the leather, by applying outwards pressure to force it to stretch. I believe I have slowed down and even partially revered nascent creases in such a fashion.

But it is difficult to know any of this for certain, unless one is willing to run a large scale experiment, using many skaters, a lot of skating time, and destroying many boots in the process.

So any such speculation could be completely wrong.

It is also possible that there are more variables that affect whether flex notches reduce or extend lifetime. E.g., it is no longer the case that all figure skates are largely composed of adhesive-stiffened-leather. Maybe composition affects what makes the most sense. It's easy to oversimplify.

[nicklaszlo]

But it is difficult to know any of this for certain, unless one is willing to run a large scale experiment, using many skaters, a lot of skating time, and destroying many boots in the process.

I just need $200,000 for a robot that mimics the human ankle's motion and a whole bunch of boots.

[tstop4me]

I just need $200,000 for a robot that mimics the human ankle's motion and a whole bunch of boots.

Probably not that simple.  Flexing the boots alone wouldn't be enough.  You would need shock tests simulating jumps (take-offs and landings).  That would require a blade to be mounted; plus much more complex test gear.  And then throw in an environmental chamber to simulate the temperature, humidity, and water exposure of a rink (and maybe human and other contaminants).