s/o blades: Going directly from Mark IV blades to Gold Seals in pre-Freeskate?

[MCsAngel2]

This is a hypothetical, as I daydream about which boots and blades I might get next time.

I have seen some threads about starting on intermediate blades as beginners or soon after. Haven't found any about starting on a really basic beginner blade and making the leap about three levels up to advanced competitive blades.

What do you think would happen? Say, if a middle aged adult skater, skating for about a year, and lets say in pre-Freeskate (basic 7-8 or maybe Freeskate 1) went from Mark IVs to Gold Seals?

I'm very interested in the defined spin rocker (as a teenager, not knowing about basic blades, I never had proper spins) and superior edge control. The reason I would consider skipping something like a Coronation Ace is to keep the 8' rocker to have more stability for jumps (which I am planning at this point to try to learn, and stability is def important at my age).

[tstop4me]

Since you've received no responses at all, I'll provide some info that may be helpful.  I have no direct experience with either the Mark IV or the Gold Seal, although I know skaters with both and have seen them.  I'm an adult skater who concentrates on edge work and spins (a struggling work in progress), no jumps.  I skated for many years on Wilson Coronation Ace, and then made a brief excursion to the Eclipse Aurora.  My coach strongly urged me to upgrade to a Wilson Gold Seal, because (1) it's her blade of choice for spins and (2) she felt that I had enough control that I was ready for it.  I didn't go with the Wilson Gold Seal, but with the Paramount "comparable" version in 440C stainless steel.  It is not identical to the Wilson Gold Seal, but Paramount places great emphasis on maintaining the same pick and spin rocker design.  I also know several skaters who have skated on both the genuine Wilson Gold Seal and the Paramount version; and they confirmed that the major features are close (the Paramount version lacks some features such as side honing, however).  So, when I refer to "Gold Seal (GS)" below, I'm actually referring to the Paramount version.

A major difference between the Mark IV and the GS is the spin rocker.  The Mark IV has a relatively flat (large radius) spin rocker, and attendant low heel lift.  The GS has a relatively pronounced (small radius) spin rocker, and attendant high heel lift; and the transition between the main rocker and the spin rocker is abrupt.   With a blade such as the Mark IV, if you rock forward, the drag pick will dig into the ice and stop you from rocking forward excessively.  With the GS, you can actually rock forward enough for the blade to scoot out backwards under you, leading to a nasty fall. 

I believe [coaches out there:  please correct me if I'm wrong] when turns, such as 3-turns and mohawks, are taught at the elementary level, the skater executes the turns near the middle of the blade (on the main rocker); but, at more advanced levels, the skater executes the turns near the front of the blade (on the spin rocker).  With the GS, the window for executing the advanced turns is narrow; hence the skater needs good edge control and blade placement; i.e., the GS is less forgiving (lower margin of error) than blades with flatter spin rockers and more gradual transition zones. 

You would have been better off starting with an intermediate blade such as the Coronation Ace, rather than the Mark IV.  But since you chose the Mark IV, when you feel the need to upgrade, you should check with a coach to see whether you have enough control over edges and blade placement before bypassing an intermediate blade and upgrading straight to the GS.

[AgnesNitt]

tstop4me. How did you feel about your Eclipse blades. Were this the SS ones?

[tstop4me]

tstop4me. How did you feel about your Eclipse blades. Were this the SS ones?

The Aurora is the Eclipse blade that is "comparable" to the Wilson Coronation Ace; however, it has the major plus of being fabricated in 440C stainless steel instead of plain carbon steel.  I gave a previous review on the Aurora here: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6851.msg88293#msg88293.  In brief, except for one design characteristic that proved to be a major negative for me, I really liked the blade.  For me, the edge life of the Aurora between sharpenings was at least 2X that of the Coronation Ace (increase in edge life will depend on the skater).  The manufacturing quality was very high; and the standard brazed construction meant that all my existing accessories and tools were usable, and skate techs had no special issues with sharpening (unlike Paramounts and Ultima Matrix blades).  And the price was only slightly above that of the Coronation Ace, whereas Paramount charges a stiff premium for 440C.

The major negative for me (not necessarily for every skater) turned out to be the spin rocker.  It has a flatter spin rocker/lower heel lift than that of the Coronation Ace.  At first I didn't think it would matter too much to me:  I was still in the early stages of learning a one-foot spin, and I really didn't know as much about blades as I do now.  Like other adult skaters here, I really struggled with the one-foot spin.  My coach noticed that I was always more successful when I was higher up on the toe; but with a flatter spin rocker, that meant I would frequently lift off the sweet spot.  Since my major goal is to nail a full-out scratch spin, she strongly urged me to upgrade to a Wilson Gold Seal.  So after ~15 mos., I decided I needed to make a change.

Since the spin rocker was the only negative characteristic for me, and I otherwise really liked the Aurora, I first asked my skate tech whether he could reprofile the spin rocker.  He told me he wouldn't without a template; and, since figure skate blade manufacturers don't provide templates, that was a dead end.  I then emailed Eclipse to see whether they would custom profile a new Aurora for me (I was hoping it would still be way cheaper than a Gold Seal), but they told me no.  I decided not to go with the genuine Wilson Gold Seal, because I had been convinced of the advantages of high-end stainless steel blades.  This time, having learned my lessons on what "comparable" does and does not mean, I carefully checked out details of high-end stainless steel blades comparable to the Gold Seal, and picked the Paramount version.

[Bill_S]

Just curious, is it possible to use a Profiler to sharpen them?

[tstop4me]

Just curious, is it possible to use a Profiler to sharpen them?

Which blades are you referring to?

[Bill_S]

Sorry, I could have been clearer. We are discussing many different blades after all.

I was referring to the Paramount version.

[tstop4me]

Sorry, I could have been clearer. We are discussing many different blades after all.

I was referring to the Paramount version.

I wasn't expecting to use the Profiler when I bought the Paramounts, because Paramount specifies a tapered blade geometry (see below).  Not being able to use a Profiler was one reason I was hesitant to buy a Gold Seal or Gold-Seal-like blade.  I went ahead, because my regular local skate tech had the right equipment to handle them and had a lot of experience sharpening them.  But he then split; and, since I couldn't find anyone else that I had confidence in, I had to resort to my Profiler.  I was able to, because of a fortuitous design discrepancy on the blades; also, I needed to modify the Profiler.

The genuine Wilson Gold Seal blades [I'm only talking about the tapered geometry version, since the parabolic geometry version is no longer offered] are both tapered longitudinally (thickness decreases from the toepick to the tail) and concave side-honed [  the sidewalls of the blade are not flat, but concave-ground near the edges as in: )(   ].  The Paramount version is not side-honed, but they do specify that they are tapered.  The Profiler will not work properly with tapered blades.  The blades I received, however, have a uniform thickness within 0.001" (0.158 - 0.159") from toepick to tail on both blades.  I'm not sure what the cause of the discrepancy is; but since I really didn't want tapered blades anyway, I was happy.  However, should I plan to buy another pair of Paramounts in the future, I will call them first to verify what they are shipping.  [Note:  When Ultima uses the term "tapered" blades, they are not referring to a longitudinal taper, but to a dovetail side-honed blade.  The Paramounts do not have a dovetail side-hone either, so it's a mystery to me what Paramount considers to be a tapered blade.  Maybe they changed the design without updating their specs; I really don't know, but it worked out to my advantage.]

The outstanding incompatibility between the Profiler and the Paramount blades arises from the two-piece construction:  a stainless-steel runner embedded into a much thicker aluminum-alloy chassis (body or holder).  The runner protrudes from the chassis only an ~7 mm height along the main rocker.  If you try to use the Profiler as-is, the runner isn't high (deep) enough to accommodate the guide block of the Profiler:  the rails of the guide block will hit against the chassis of the blade before the stone seats against the edge of the blade. 

The guide block is approximately rectangular, with raised guide rails, ~4 mm high.  I resorted to removing the guide rails.  If you have a milling machine, it's a trivial job.  I don't, so I did it inelegantly.  I clamped the guide block in a bench vise; and used a wide, coarse file to remove the rails (fortunately the guide block is made of a soft alloy).  I smoothed the surface of the guide block with a fine file, and finished with abrasive paper [fortunately, removal of the guide rails does not require precision machining].  There is then sufficient clearance for the guide block, and still sufficient guiding surfaces remaining within the body of the guide block for the Profiler to work without excessive wobble.

[Bill_S]

I have to hand it to you for making it work. I know the Profiler won't work with odd blade geometries, so you lucked out with a uniformly thick runner.

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response. It's appreciated, especially while I'm considering new boots and blades.

[Casey]

I started skating with some old flimsy department store brand skates from the 70's that I found on eBay.  They didn't hold up very long.  I then went directly to fairly high-end, following an ice dancer's advice to get Graf Edmontons and MK Gold Stars.  I loved the blades, but hated the boots, which were destroyed in half a year, splitting apart at the heels and causing foot pain besides.  Choosing more carefully for my next skating boots, I ended up getting custom Klingbeil boots, and in the process discovered that the Grafs had really been too long for me which was what had caused some of my foot issues in the first place.  Unfortunately, the Gold Stars would not fit on properly-sized boots as they were too long, so I decided to switch to John Wilson Gold Seals.  Loved them too, though they did feel quite a bit different.  The Gold Stars had been more maneuverable lending to quick footwork and great agility and maneuverability, but the Gold Seals allowed me to skate faster longer and I could center spins significantly better on them, plus jump landings became steadier.  I was a better skater by the time I got them so that's also a factor affecting my judgment, but I'd probably opt for Gold Seals again over Gold Stars.  Anyways, I got the Gold Stars a couple months after I first started skating, and the Gold Seals in less than a year - both worked out great for me, and I definitely do not regret those purchases!  I never competed and am mostly self-taught, but I can do all the single jumps through the lutz and at one point could spin up to 35-40 revolutions.

Unfortunately, the Klingbeils with Gold Seals got stolen (I still miss them so much), and I ended up getting another pair of Klingbeils, but this time with Paramount 440c blades that advertised having a Gold Seal profile.  I still have those today, many years later, as I haven't skated very much since then.  I really don't like the Paramount blades.  On the bright side, they stay sharp forever - I think I've had them sharpened only once to change the ROH.  But they don't feel at all the same as the Gold Seals did.  I've never been able to center my spins on them well, I feel more wobbly on them, etc.  Not really sure why but they just don't work well for me and make me feel frustrated.  I think part may be due to the materials being more rigid whereas carbon steel flexes more, and I think that the profiles must actually be somewhat different between the two for spins to be affected.

I'm probably going to get back into skating regularly soon, and am contemplating replacing my blades yet again.  I haven't skated with any regularity in over a decade, but I'll still opt for something high-end.  I loved the Gold Seals and those are the first choice that comes to mind.  I also have many fond memories of skating vigorously on the Gold Stars and am tempted to try returning to them.  Part of me wants to try Pattern 99's to experience the difference.  I'm pretty decided on traditional John Wilson or MK blades (not the Revolution models).  I'll have to work my way back up from severe lack of practice but I wouldn't want to bother with lower-end blades after having experienced the better ones.  As an adult skater, I made rapid progress when I learned to skate, and I attribute some of that success to having good blades that made me feel confident on the ice.  Since your feet aren't going to keep growing, if you get properly-sized boots then the blades will last for many years, so the cost really isn't that bad considering all the other costs of skating.