Could skates be holding me back even at the beginner stage?

[masterblaster]

I'm a beginner who started three months ago. (I don't mean started freestyle, I mean started standing on the ice and clinging to the boards.)

I've been doing group lessons once a week and practicing about 4 hours a week on my own. I took beginner adult LTS starting in January, and I felt pretty comfortable on the ice right away. I'm going to start "advanced" adult LTS at the end of this month. Currently, I can do very basic skills: snowplow stops, swizzles, ski glides, two foot turns, one foot gliding, backward skating (swizzles, c-pushes, some stroking), and L-pushes. I have a lot of speed and deep edges, according to my LTS teacher.

I am a flat-footed pronator from way back, however, and I have the Riedell R-Fit inserts in my skates (Jackson Elle  Fusions) but I am still almost always on my inside edges, even when I think I'm leaning strongly to the outside. I can launch myself into a one-foot glide on my outside edge if I concentrate really really hard, but it's quite a shallow outside edge when I check my tracings, and doesn't last very long before I'm back on the inside edge. Sometimes I'm just on the flat of the blade, and managing to create a curve by angling my shoulders. I don't think the blade actually leans to the outside a lot of the time.

When I bought my skates, I felt too shy to go to Figure Skating Boutique, which is sort of near me, so I ordered online. I measured my feet pretty meticulously, and I still think I ended up in a boot half a size long, and maybe slightly too wide. I'm wondering how much this might be contributing to my struggles with outside edges, and whether it would be worthwhile, at this early point in my skating, to get fitted for different skates and try to sell the ones I currently have? I guess I still feel a little shy to go in and get a professional fitting, though I have since been in for a sharpening and the workers were friendly and helpful.


I'd prefer not to spend more money, but I am completely addicted to skating and would do anything to get out of my own way with skill development. Could I get through the rest of LTS in my current boots and just not worry too much about my outside edges, or is it likely to prevent me from even learning crossovers and other basics? Would it be worthwhile to investigate blade shimming or remounting on my current skates (is this even possible on Elle Fusions?), or better to start from scratch with new skates?

Any advice appreciated.

[tstop4me]

I'm a strong pronator.  I need a combination of (a) corrective insoles, (b) corrective blade placement, and (c) corrective shimming.  And that's with a boot that was properly fitted.

You should go to the pro shop with your current skates and have a tech evaluate them.  There's no need to be shy.  Any decent shop should treat all their customers well.  If they don't, go elsewhere.  You should do this sooner, rather than later.

[Loops]

You should go to the pro shop with your current skates and have a tech evaluate them.  There's no need to be shy.  Any decent shop should treat all their customers well.  If they don't, go elsewhere.  You should do this sooner, rather than later.

This ^^.  I also have my blades shimmed. Alignment is HUGE and just a millimeter can make a huge difference.  Go have a yuck with the guys at the shop, they'll verify the alignment (this might cost something, but it'll be worth it) and if they're worried about fit, may check that too.  If you want to buy new skates, they'll be happy to take your money for that, too, but make sure that all other options are exhausted.

[Bill_S]

I believe that it's more important for a beginner to have good equipment than a seasoned skater. If you have to compensate for your equipment to do basic things while learning, you may get into very bad habits that you can't break.

[masterblaster]

Thank you all, I'm going to bite the bullet and go to the shop with my skates. It's worth it to me, and I'm glad to hear it may be more helpful earlier in the game than later.

[Bill_S]

Good call. Even though the cost is a bear, you'll save money in the long run.

Put good oil in a new car, they say.

[AgnesNitt]

How to make adjustments inside the boot with insoles before you go down the long road of fiddling with the outside the boot .

https://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2012/03/pronation-nation-inside-boot.html

And here are a load of boot fitting tips.

http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2014/08/super-fitting-your-boot.html

[tstop4me]

How to make adjustments inside the boot with insoles before you go down the long road of fiddling with the outside the boot .

https://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2012/03/pronation-nation-inside-boot.html

And here are a load of boot fitting tips.

http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2014/08/super-fitting-your-boot.html

I'd like to strongly emphasize one statement in the first blog you cited:

"Start with boots that fit you for length and width. This isn't a substitute for a good fit."

[AgnesNitt]

I'd like to strongly emphasize one statement in the first blog you cited:

"Start with boots that fit you for length and width. This isn't a substitute for a good fit."

Yep, I agree. But it's worth trying to get them to fit on his own, since there's no way to get his money back.

From my perspective, I had all his problems when I was learning to skate and I blamed my boots. I learned from all my boot fiddling what was in my boots (I fixed a boot problem and a skating problem got fixed) and what was me (I fixed a boot 'problem' and the skating problem didn't get fixed).  That learning paid off when I ordered full custom. I now know when to send boots in to be rebuilt, or a blade adjusted. 

BTW, popping a hip was my biggest problem in getting on my outside edge.

[nicklaszlo]

Did you ask your LTS coach?  In principle they should be able to tell you where the problem is.

[tstop4me]

Did you ask your LTS coach?  In principle they should be able to tell you where the problem is.

In principle, maybe; in practice, varies a lot from coach to coach.  You should expect a coach to diagnose what you are doing wrong (hey, you're supposed to be skating on an outside edge, but you're on a flat or on an inside edge), but not necessarily to diagnose the root cause.  Doesn't hurt to ask, though.

I agree with AgnesNitt that you can learn a lot by doing your own troubleshooting and trying out different fixes.  But not everyone has the right analytical and diagnostics abilities to do the troubleshooting, and not everyone is handy enough to do the fixes.  One great advantage of doing it yourself is often you can do multiple iterations in one session (for example, if you are varying the thickness of a wedge under an insole, or varying the height of a shim under a blade), or iterations in successive sessions (for example, if you have to plug old holes and drill new holes to move the blade).  If you have to make an appointment with a tech for each iteration, the whole process could take weeks or months.

[ChristyRN]

I'd like to strongly emphasize one statement in the first blog you cited:

"Start with boots that fit you for length and width. This isn't a substitute for a good fit."

I would like to strongly agree with this.

I was in boots (three pairs!) that were a half-size too long and way too narrow. When I was properly fitted more than 10 years after I started, I had learned multiple bad habits that I am still un-learning four years later.

[masterblaster]

So, I went into the skate shop a couple of times. First time, I just got Superfeet because they were crazy busy fitting a huge group of kids, but my skates still weren't feeling right, so I went back and got fitted.

Turns out the boots I thought might be a half a size too large were a whole size too large. I bought some discounted GAM skates on clearance in the correct size. They have the same blades as my Elles, and are slightly stiffer. I had them heat moulded, so I'm hoping it won't be too terrible to break them in.

I plan to sell my old skates once I've verified these ones will work out for me. I'm near a place that buys used equipment, so I'm not too worried about that.

Thanks for all your advice. I'm hoping this thread will have a happy ending.

[masterblaster]

Just a little update for reference: The Gam Concepts worked out okay for my next LTS class, but now that they are fully broken in, I can feel my heel slipping just a bit, and they're difficult to tie properly. The arch pain is considerably reduced compared to my old, too-big skates though. And my outside edges improved a lot, but I think I am still pronating and could use a blade adjustment.

Ultimately I think I prefer the higher heel and split width last of the Jackson fusion line. The higher heel makes it so much easier to get on the sweet spot of my blade, and my heel slipped less.

So I'm going yet again for a fitting at a new place. The boutique I had been going to was always busy, no appointments, so even though I got fitted for the Gams, it felt rushed. I've made an appointment for a place that does appointments only, so I'm hoping they'll spend enough time helping me with my big feet and overpronation. Once I finally get a pair of skates I love, I'll feel like I won the lottery.

[Loops]

I hear you on the higher heel.  BUT in the meantime, unless you really want to lay out for new skates, may I recommend something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Silicone-Protector-Plantar-Fasciitis-Support/dp/B075VPZ2R1/ref=pd_sbs_121_2/145-2900580-7461844?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B075VPZ2R1&pd_rd_r=1697a729-6cf7-11e9-a963-6f3949decc2c&pd_rd_w=QBHEF&pd_rd_wg=EBTLv&pf_rd_p=588939de-d3f8-42f1-a3d8-d556eae5797d&pf_rd_r=CSX894PMCAE5Q44S8KYE&psc=1&refRID=CSX894PMCAE5Q44S8KYE

I have weirdly narrow heels- even my custom boots are too wide in the heels, and I swear by these.  One pair in the two pack has gotten me through this season, so they're very good value.

[masterblaster]

Interesting! Thank you, I might have to try them.

I do have other reasons to switch my boot, unfortunately, so I will probably end up spending more money and then re-selling my other, gently used skates.

The fitter tried me in Edea today, which I've never tried before, and they really fit my foot shape well, so that was a shock. I was sure that I was best in Jackson. One more fitting and we'll see for sure, but I think I'm going to end up in an Edea Chorus with a legacy blade. It's a lot for a beginner, but I'm spoiling myself.

[Loops]

Spoiling yourself is just fine. Encouraged, in fact.