Skate Problems

[tfjjmc]

My daughter is a first year skater.  She currently is ISI level Alpha and skates on a beginning Synchro team.  She is wearing a Reidell Diamond and she is having pain issues across the top of her toes.  I took her to the pro shop and they measured her and said the fit was still fine and recommended some adjustments to the tongue and the way we laced them.  When we were at the shop she said it was better but now that she is back on the ice in them she is complaining of pain again.  I have a few questions.

1.  Is this the right skate for this level?  She is really struggling with getting crossovers could the skate be part of the problem?
2.  Has anyone else had this issue?  Is there a way to fix it without replacing the skates (only 3 months old}?
3.  Any recommendations on what skate would work for her?  She is a medium width but it seems like she needs more height in the toe box.

[skatemom189]

My daughter sometimes has that problem.  Ask the shop to bump up the toe box to give her some more room.  You may have to do that every few months as her foot grows.  It's easy for a pro shop to do and only takes about ten minutes.

If it's the right level depends on how big she is.  If she's a teen its probably fine.  If she's five it may be a bit much, but probably only a bit.  Next time you may try other brands.  Jackson, Edea, and Risport may have higher toe boxes.

If she's having trouble with crossovers have her practice one foot glides on a circle, both feet clockwise and counter clockwise.  Strengthening her edge control will help her get crossovers.

[Query]

Stretching the toe box, on top, does indeed sound like a great idea!

Another possibility is to remove the insoles, and cut and shape your own, out of something like foam, thinner than the original liners, especially near the toe. The easy way to make it stay in the boot is to make the periphery the same shape, by tracing the old insole on top of the new one. Then you cut down the 3D shape to make everything perfect. I currently use foam from a cheap camping sleeping pad, though it squishes down and need to be replaced every few months. A simpler but less effective technique is to cut the new insole out of thin material, like cardboard, or a cheap dollar store insole, then add adhesive foam or tape underneath to modify the 3D shape until the foot is comfortable.

Is she still growing? The "good news" is that if so the current boots will be fairly temporary. One big growth spurt, and she needs new boots anyway, almost overnight.

Riedell is known for somewhat small toe boxes in general. Harlick and Jackson are known for larger toe boxes - though I may be thinking wide (my personal need) rather than high. If possible, it is a good idea to try out fit in a store before buying skates - which for many people means driving to the best pro shop in within a days' drive. Ask around your rink for where the good skaters and coaches go. A really good fitter would KNOW whether a given boot brand and model could fit her foot snugly yet comfortably, unless/until she grows.

[nicklaszlo]

It takes time to get crossovers. 

[Query]

The majority of the people I notice having trouble learning crossovers, or making them smooth and strong, do two things:

1. They try to do them while the skating foot (the one that is underneath) is on an INSIDE (instead of OUTSIDE edge). Sometimes they start on an outside edge, but shift to an inside edge, maybe because they are afraid of falling over to the outside. And/or, even more awkwardly, they try to lean their body to the inside instead of the outside.

2. They keep the skating leg straight, and don't bend it.

Both of these issues mean that the crossing foot and leg (the one that is on top) can't reach far enough to touch the ice, unless they topple over onto it.

I think any decent coach has seen these obvious issues so often that they know how to recognize them and help.

I love to blame skating problems on the equipment. However, while a blade mounted at a tilt might skid when you go onto either an inside or an outside edge, I don't think you can normally blame bad crossovers on the skates. 

[tfjjmc]

The majority of the people I notice having trouble learning crossovers, or making them smooth and strong, do two things:

1. They try to do them while the skating foot (the one that is underneath) is on an INSIDE (instead of OUTSIDE edge). Sometimes they start on an outside edge, but shift to an inside edge, maybe because they are afraid of falling over to the outside. And/or, even more awkwardly, they try to lean their body to the inside instead of the outside.

2. They keep the skating leg straight, and don't bend it.

Both of these issues mean that the crossing foot and leg (the one that is on top) can't reach far enough to touch the ice, unless they topple over onto it.

I think any decent coach has seen these obvious issues so often that they know how to recognize them and help.

I love to blame skating problems on the equipment. However, while a blade mounted at a tilt might skid when you go onto either an inside or an outside edge, I don't think you can normally blame bad crossovers on the skates. 

Thank you for the tips.  I need to talk to her coach, she gets more and more frustrated as time passes.  I don't think it's the skates necessarily causing the inability to do crossovers.  I think it is probably a bravery issue for her, she just takes a little longer to learn things.  When she gets new skates we will try different brands to see if we can get a little extra toe space.

[AgnesNitt]

Getting crossovers requires bending the knees and the ankle. Having difficulty at the Alpha level is expected. I wouldn't worry about it being the skates or the blades unless they're way too big or to small. There are people who learn to do crossovers in rental skates whose blades haven't been sharpened in a year or more.

More practice usually is the trick to getting new skills.

[LoveDance]

You might need an authorized Ridell dealer measure her with Ridell measuring stick and see if the current boots are the right fit for her.  Tracing the foot provide inaccurate foot length, about 1/2 longer as oppose to measuring with a specialty foot measuring stick.  If the boots cause pain on top of her toes (but not directly at the tip of the toes and not pressing on her toe nails, it means the boots are too long and/or roomy in the toe area, causing her to crawl her toes to get support during skating.  That could cause the toes to hurt. 
You could provide more support for her foot by going to a bookmaker who could build-up some foam underneath her arch areas and possibly tow area, and that way securing her foot a little, providing more support and less wiggle room. 
FOr the crossovers, when she does forward crossovers, ask her to think about her toes and try to press the toes press the toes down, while on the backward crossovers try to ask her to lift the toes up (even if there is no room for it).  It will assist her with having more stable  edges on crossovers.

[Query]

Tracing the foot provide inaccurate foot length, about 1/2 longer as oppose to measuring with a specialty foot measuring stick.

Could you clarify that? I would have thought a tracing, if sent to the manufacturer, would give a better measure of foot shape and size than measuring the foot with a stick, unless the stick is a lot more than a stick with distance scales on it.

What does the Riedell measuring stick do, and what does it look like?

Also, 1/2 what?

[Loops]

Query its probably a 1/2 size.  Also, when tracing your foot by yourself, which is how most of us would do it, you're bending over and holding your leg in a different way than normal, thus putting pressure on your foot causing it to change shape a smidge.  There's also the question of whether or not to hold the pencil perfectly vertically around the foot, or to angle in slightly to compensate for the diameter of the pencil.  And I always have trouble getting around my heel. I'm sure there's a "standard/correct" way to do it, but most of us trying to do this at home aren't initiated in it.

You go to Mike, for your skates, right? You've seen the Riedell measuring stick for sure then. Probably even had it used on you!

[Query]

when tracing your foot by yourself, which is how most of us would do it, you're bending over and holding your leg in a different way than normal, thus putting pressure on your foot causing it to change shape a smidge. 

That makes sense. Especially if you try to do it standing on one foot. Mike generally does tracings seated.

But - couldn't you put your feet inside the tracings after you make them, and see how to adjust them?

Is the ruler on this page "the Reidell stick"?

The diagrams on that page and this one seem wrong, because they are only scaling the forward part of the shape of the foot... Also, it says it is for Speed skates; I'd like to see something similar for figure skates.

(One of the boot companies [maybe it was Riedell?] used to sell something like those diagrams you could stand on at a rink to estimate your foot size.

>There's also the question of whether or not to hold the pencil perfectly vertically around the foot, or to angle in slightly to compensate for the diameter of the pencil. 

Also, whether the pencil should be at the base of the foot, or slightly above that at the widest extent... I think the latter makes sense, but might not be obvious to everyone.

>You go to Mike, for your skates, right? You've seen the Riedell measuring stick for sure then. Probably even had it used on you!

I wish. I bought the Klingbeils I am back to using (because I haven't fixed the Grafs I got free yet) about 13 years ago, from someone whose major accomplishment was creating a lot of business for a local podiatrist. The dubious fitter did foam impressions of my feet, which should have been better than tracings, but managed to mess even that up completely, creating years of pain.

But I am very much a fan of how Mike works. He said I should have gone to the factory for Klingbeils.

I watched Mike work 1 day/week for a few months, though I paid more attention to sharpening than fitting. He often used a Brannock Device - I think he may have had different ones for different boot brands.

For custom boots, he traced feet, while the person was sitting down, then added a bunch of extra measurements that he marked on the tracings.

If you sit down while you take the measurement, maybe bending over changes foot shape less than if you stand?