judging

[falen]

We went to a competition and DD won an event that I thought she was so so (she only practiced it once! but was clean) and was last at the regular freestyle program (she was the only one without a fall or stumble).  The girl who won fell on an element badly and spectators were all commenting that the girl in blue (my dd) was "by far the best."  Another parent whose DD had another coach said "I just wish we knew what the judges are looking at".  So I ask if we could get the sheets from the judges so we can see what to work on and coach said we can't.  It would be so helpful.  What is the reasoning behind this?  I thought that the skaters on tv get to see their score sheets, so it is only higher level skaters?

[Sk8tmum]

Under CPC, we get the detail sheets showing all of the elements and the points and the scores. That's what the TV skaters see. If you're skating under one-by-one (OBO) - ordinals - then, you don't see it. If you could see the results, all you would see are the rankings that the judges used: whether the judges ranked your kid 1,2,3,4,5, and so on. They don't "score" the individual elements the way that CPC does. They basically take the first skater, then rank every other skater as "better or worse" than the 1st skater ... so, there's nothing there for you to see. So, as long as your kid is in OBO, you won't see detail.

When your kid gets to the CPC system (that's what we call it in Canada) - then you'll get breakdowns by element and by the Program Component Scores (PCS) which is great.  If you get to some comps, you may also encounter the "helpful judge" who will discuss your skater's performance; however, remember that judges are volunteers, generally really busy, and likely gun-shy after being accosted by many angry parents - and may avoid all parents like the plague !

[isakswings]

Judging seems to be somewhat subjective, esp at the lower levels. From what I understand, it becomes much more technical once a skater is judged using the IJS scoring system. That said, I have talked to older skaters who have said there are pros and cons to both the 6.0 and the IJS scoring system.

Very rarely do all of the judges agree on a skater's placement. It seems to me that the ordinals are rarely the same. Dd has come in 1st before and has had a random 5 in her ordinals. Then there are times when she comes in 3rd or 4th and has a random 1. At dd's last comp she earned straight 1's and I actually took a picture of it! It rarely happens. LOL.

If you want to know what it is a judge is looking for, I would suggest you ask your coach if there are any critiques coming up. Sometimes my dd's club will host a judges critique. Your skater would skate her freestyle program and the judge would take notes and then discuss with you, dd and her coach what he or she liked or didn't like about the program. The judge will also give you suggestions of things you can try to improve the program. Another thing our club did last year was to host a judges Q and A session for parents. We got to ask the judges questions and we had the chance to pick their brains to see how judges think. we had 4 judges there.


I am not sure why you can't see the comment sheets. Must be an official rule. Good luck and congrats to your daughter. Figure skating is a hard sport to figure out!

[falen]

Thanks!

I'll ask coach about the critique thing.

[katz in boots]

Gee, don't you get to talk to the judges afterwards, get feedback?
I know ours is a small rink, so there aren't huge numbers competing in each group, but we can normally get feedback at the end of the event.
Sometimes individual skaters can ask, usually the coaches who talk to the judges.
I find it very useful either way. 

[fsk8r]

One thing I've learnt at the lower levels is that it's not necessarily the technical that wins. Performing all the elements doesn't necessarily equate to skating well. So the girl who won and had the fall, might have had more speed and flow across the ice and that weighed higher in the judges opinions of her than the fall. Whilst your daughter may have peformed all the elements correctly but was slightly slower or unsteady and so as a complete skater wasn't quite as good. (I didn't see the competition so this is all hypothetical).
One thing my coach has made clear to me, is that it's difficult to explain exactly what judges are looking at as there's so many different aspects. Some judges will emphasise the technical performance and another will be looking more at the flow across the ice. Hence how you can have a skater placed 1st and 5th in the same event. Different judges place different emphasis on the aspects they're looking at.
My coach says she finds it very hard to explain to very young children why they placed where they did in a competition and puts a lot of emphasis on the individual performance and not on the placement. Personally I find this helpful, as I struggle with understanding what the judges are looking at and I'm a grown up.

[Clarice]

There were plenty of times when my daughter was little that we didn't understand why she hadn't placed better - after all, she hadn't had any falls!  Now we look back at those old videotapes and laugh - no, she didn't fall on her jumps, but they weren't fully rotated, her knees were stiff, and she barely left the ice.  As new skaters, we simply didn't know what to look for.  Not saying that this is the case with your daughter, but there may be things the judges are seeing that your eye isn't developed enough yet to catch.

At competitions, unless the announcement advertised that there would be time for critiques, it's generally going to be difficult to get to speak with a judge.  There simply isn't time for them to speak with every skater and keep the competition running on time.  They generally don't speak to parents, either - the coach would be the one to ask for a consultation, and the judge would speak to the coach and skater.  They won't say anything about any of the other skaters in the group, only your skater, so you won't hear about what First Place Skater did better than your daughter.  They'll just give her general comments on things she can improve, which her coach probably knows already anyway.

I've found that in situations like this, you just have to focus on your own skater, praise the things that went well, celebrate the goals achieved, and make plans to work on the things that need improving.  You do this regardless of placement.  There are times when you place low and don't understand why, and there are times you place high and don't understand why!  The ordinals are also only just that - they put the skaters in order, but don't tell you whether the skater ahead of you is there by a whisker or by a mile.  So it's best to get the skater to focus on how they skated, rather than on where they placed.

[blue111moon]

What kind of competition was this?  ISI, USFS, Basic Skills, Interclub all use different systems.  If it's USFS using IJS, then generally skaters can get a copy of their protocol after the event, but it's not required.  Sometimes the clubs hand out the enire group protocols, sometimes just the one for the skater. Under 6.0, there's no protocol.  ISI uses coaches as judges and I've never been able to get any kind of explanations for placements other than "There were no deductions taken." which is less than helpful.  Basic Skills competitions may use a mix of official judges, coaches and skaters and again the contact person would be the event referee for any questions.

Under no circumstances does anyone other than the referees and the accountants get to see the judges' sheets EVER.  The best that you could have done was asked to speak to the event referee and politely request a meeting with one or two of the judges (usually the ones who placed your skater the lowest) to find out what they think your skater needs to work to improve.  Most judges are willing to do this, if they have time between events. 

At the lower levels where all the skaters are doing the same elements, there's often very little difference between the skaters and results can hingee on small details that very often escape the people sitting in the stands.  If you can't get an explanation from the judges, then it's best to just move on and say "We'll do better next time." and let it go.  Nobody wins ALL the time and that 's a good lesson to learn early on.

[jumpingbeansmom]

We went to a competition and DD won an event that I thought she was so so (she only practiced it once! but was clean) and was last at the regular freestyle program (she was the only one without a fall or stumble).  The girl who won fell on an element badly and spectators were all commenting that the girl in blue (my dd) was "by far the best."  Another parent whose DD had another coach said "I just wish we knew what the judges are looking at".  So I ask if we could get the sheets from the judges so we can see what to work on and coach said we can't.  It would be so helpful.  What is the reasoning behind this?  I thought that the skaters on tv get to see their score sheets, so it is only higher level skaters?

We love IJS-- my 10 year old began skating juvenile this fall, and it has been great to have the more objective look at what scores she is getting.

[falen]

It was ISI freestlye.

It was just like she won THAT and she placed last THERE?!?!   It would be great to get some feedback on specifics as to why.  So she can keep up whatever she's doing well and improve what needs to be improved.  Our coach isn't the only one that is confused.  We are from a small new rink, sometimes I wonder if its just paying your dues.  So Blue111moon, is that like a rule not getting to see the sheets or is it just something that has always been done so they continue it?

Katz, the comp was an all day event, so after 10 hours I don't think the judges would want to stay even longer!  And if it's they way everyone has said with ordinals, that they just order them and have no comments or grades, I doubt they would remember her after all those skaters.

[FigureSpins]

ISI is a different ballgame.  If you're trying to compare a first--place performance in Artistic to a Freeskate event, just stop now.  There are no similarities between the two events in terms of judging.  Artistic is really how the skater covers the ice, interprets the music and skates.  There are no technical elements to judge, so adding jumps means nothing.  In a freestyle, there are required and extra elements as well as flow, pattern and a myriad of other judging elements.  Don't compare one event's performance to the other in trying to figure out why your skater took this or that.  It's like comparing apples to baseball bats, lol.


In freestyle events, each judge is given a sheet that lists one or more required elements, duration, extra content, etc.  The judges are instructed to not speak with parents, skaters, coaches, etc. about the scoring or video reviews.  This is to avoid misstatements, confrontations or accusations of student-poaching.

To challenge the judging, your coach has to submit a form and a fee.  If the challenge is upheld, that fee gets refunded.  I laid out the $50 because I KNEW something was wrong with the scoring.  It was refunded when they found that one judge's sheet had been overlooked when they added up the scores.  (Back in the days before computerized scoring.)  That wasn't the judge's fault; it was the scorer's error and it completely upended the results.  Correcting the already-awarded medals was a bigger problem.

FYI: falls don't really matter in ISI Freeskate events.  As long as the skater gets back up and keeps going, it doesn't affect the scoring very much.  Technically, there is no deduction, it just lowers the skaters' General Overall score minutely.

If a skater attempts a required element and fails to do it cleanly, s/he can try two more times in the same program.  The best attempt is judged.  While you may have seen the 1st place skater fall on something, she might have completed the maneuver later on in the program successfully.  If your daughter left out a required element, she would get a zero from the judge responsible for that element.  If she attempted one or more time, but wasn't successful, she'd get a .5 score just for trying.

The biggest impact on ISI FS scores is doing elements that are from a higher level than the event.  That's an automatic 2.0 point deduction that can cost a skater a medal.  Also, running over on program time can cause the duration score (normally a 10 point score) to drop to 8 or even 5 points, depending on how long the music continues.  However, if a skater's program includes legitimate extra maneuvers, they can gain a few extra points.

Just thinking about how you have to double-check everything for your coach, I'd guess she just doesn't know what to do so she doesn't do anything.  Could be a lack of experience.  Your coach also probably doesn't want to get a reputation as a complainer, or she just feels you're overreacting about a simple ISI competition.  Just mho.

There are many times where I'd like to see judge's sheets to ease my mind that the program was choreographed correctly and that everything was "called" correctly, but neither the ISI or Basic Skills really allows that easily.  I wish that, if an element were left out or too-high level, I'd like to have it pointed out to me as the coach so that I cpi;d correct the error, whether it be the choreography or the skater's technique.  Case in point: a required upright spin that the skater performed with a bent knee.  If it was judged as a poorly-executed sit spin, above the event's test level, I'd want to know that that's what the judges assumed and that's what hurt the skater's placement.  Not necessarily to challenge it, but to fix the problem rather than have it crop up at the next competition and cause the same issue.  

But not everyone feels that way and there are people who would argue "What are you crazy?  It wasn't a sit spin!" and create tension.  That's the reason for the gag order.  Back in the old days, the ISI would post each element's score, adding across to show the skater's score.  Now they just show the totals, which is enough for placements, but useless as feedback on performances.

If you have a video, you and the coach should review the performance.  Make sure every required element was included --sometimes I've "seen" my skaters do things that were really left out when I checked the video.  Look closely at the extra elements in the program and make sure that they aren't from a higher-level skating test.  Check the running time of the music and make sure it's within the allowed time +/- 10 seconds.  That might help you find out what held your DD back and give you a chance to correct any mistakes.

It was ISI freestlye.

[falen]

I really think coach is teriffic.  She has learn so much with her.  BTW she still takes group bridge classes who have different coaches and they always say dd has great technique.  During the summer she was at another camp (coach went away to see family) and they wanted her to test pre-preliminary moves saying she is ready.  Yes people make mistakes like the crosscut thing and that is why I like a second pair of eyes.  I really did not think it was a problem to ask here.

[falen]

and I certainly don't want to challenge anything at ISI!  I just wanted to know if there was any way we could find out what 4 different coaches (between group, camp, and regular) are missing.  We are putting a lot of money into it, I'd like to know what we are doing wrong.

[FigureSpins]

I didn't say it was her technique or anything "you" were doing wrong. 

The group and camp people were at this competition and don't know what happened? 
I didn't read that in your post, so I think it's just the regular coach and you who are befuddled.

I gave you six different reasons why she may not have won the freestyle event and none of them had to do with technique.  She may have left out a required element, the coach may have included a restricted maneuver... or, she may have just been outskated.

You should ask your coach if she's passed any of the ISI judging tests.  I suspect she hasn't, which is why she doesn't understand what happened in this particular instance.  If that's the case, you need to talk with a coach who understand ISI and the judging.

[phoenix]

It's also entirely possible that you're not doing anything wrong--sometimes the results don't always come out right. Or maybe she was just outskated. IIRC, you dd does a lot of competing. Is this happening all the time? If it's just the one comp, let it go & move on. If it becomes a pattern, then it's time to look into causes & getting critiques, etc. Skating is like that; it's subjective & sometimes you come in last. Sometimes maybe you deserved higher. No one wins all the time, esp. at the lower levels where it's all a big crap shoot anyway.

Unless it becomes a pattern of seemingly skating well & still being dead last, I'd be doubtful there are any big problems.

[drskater]

I'm an ISI judge and ITA with the above advice.

Remember, the judging is completely comparative--it all depends on what her competitors did. This is why it can be difficult to figure out what she did "wrong"--you have to look at everybody's scores. One skater's score in isolation is meaningless.

That said...

You didn't mention what Freestyle level DD skated at but from some of your previous posts, you've mentioned FS1.

Some of the most common problems seen in a FS 1 event include: edges that were not skated consecutively (i.e. backward outside edges, something else, then backward inside edges); backward edges that make lightbulb tracings, an incomplete edge, no edge/toe-picks (very common on backward insides); lack of six rotation minimum on the two-foot spin (or adding a one-foot--that's a no no); leaving something out (as Figure Spins points out this is very common); and, although it is not an error, using the required forward pivot to enter the required two-foot spin (judges don't like this because it is sometimes difficult to tell if the skater intended the pivot as a separate element).

[falen]

Thanks for the input.  And yes FS1.  So the spin may be the killer.  The others got in way more than 6 revolutions.  See that is what I need...something to work on!!!

It is only her 3rd competition.  I think she just need lots more experience.  She hates to be last she doesn't mind not winning, she just doesn't want to be last.  She is very hard on herself.  So being her mom I want to fix it. 

[phoenix]

If she continues skating you have a LOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG road to go. FS1 is the extreme beginning of it all. You will do yourself a huge favor by learning to relax and roll with things when they don't always go according to plan, or even as it seems it should. Figure skating judging will always be subjective, IJS notwithstanding (& it will be YEARS before she reaches a level where they'd be using that). If it drives you crazy not knowing exactly why something went down the way it did, this sport will eat you alive.

At the low levels (and again, she is extreme low level), the judging is going to be inconsistent at best. I have a student who, at pre-pre (with axel), has been first, fourth, six, and last--all with the exact same program & similar skates & similar competitors. Some of those I thought should have been different. Some I agreed with. You have to shrug & move on.

Low level competition, IMHO, serves one purpose and one purpose only: to give the kids the experience of putting a program together & going out & skating it under pressure. Now, granted, there are a lot of things that go into that. But it all boils down to that. Results mean nothing in the long run. Results mean nothing w/ regards to how far a skater might go or what kind of "promise" they are showing. I'm very glad my student has placed all over the board, because she's learning that that's how it goes with skating--and her parents are learning the same thing. One day you're up, one day you're down. Welcome to figure skating. It's just as tough mentally as it is physically & all a skater can do is go out & do their best. If we feel they did that, then we applaud them & then we go back to the cold dark rink & work our hearts out until the next competition, where they get a little more of that valuable experience.

Frankly I'm way more concerned w/ test results & comments at the low levels than I am competition results. We learn a LOT more from the test sheets. Again, this is only my opinion.

[twokidsskatemom]

If you look though the Archives, you will find a post I am embarassed I wrote at least 7 years ago. ISI comp, didnt get why my lovely wonderful daughter didnt place the way we thought! Fast forward 7 years, still competing and its the way skating was and still is!!Because there are always things to inprove upon,  I would just take it like  that. The others could have just had one more revolution, just a bit better flow, you never know.
If she did her best, that is what she can take away from this.My kids have placed first, last, they know its the journey not just the medals.What she can work on is just improving her skating !
I agree that this is just an experience that she will build upon.There is no way to predicate how a skater does based on low levels.In fact the skaters that  placed higher than by DD 7 years ago,placed lower at regionals the last two years.They are all at the same level, even now ;
Good luck!

[icedancer]

I have to agree wtih the posters on this thread - I am aUS Figure Skating Silver test judge and sometimes judge at non-qualifying competitions.  Sometimes it is totally obvious who has had the best program on that day and who does not - other times it seems that they have all skated pretty much the same.  Unfortunately, we have to place the skaters and someone has to be placed first and someone has to, unfortunately, be placed last.  I wish that we could just say, "Well, they were all pretty much the same" but we can't do that.

Once I judged a competition where there were four teenagers, probably Intermediate Short Program.  They all skated pretty much the same but of course one was 1st and one was last - I saw them huddled around the results board and they were laughing - they had all gotten a 1st place ordinal and I believe they all had gotten a last place ordinal.  They saw me and said, "We all got a first place'" and without looking at my notes I just said, "Well, you guys all skated about the same - you know you all had some good points and you all know where you maybe missed an element or two - you know how you skated--" they just cracked up again.

By Intermediate level, with tons of competitions behind them, they were totally comfortable with their placements at this non-qualifying competition and it gave them something to work on for the much bigger competition in the fall: Regionals.

[FigureSpins]

See that is what I need...something to work on!!!

Was your daughter's spin weak or less than 6 revolutions?  Were the other skaters' spins balanced and even, or did they wobble and spin on their toes?  Lots of revolutions doesn't mean anything if they did it on one toe.

That was just one suggestion from a certified ISI judge; it wasn't an actual critique of that competition.  You said four different coaches claim your DD's technique is great - how does that translate to "you didn't spin long enough?"  If the spin was the issue, your coach should have identified that already; it's pretty obvious and easy to spot, lol.

Did you review the video, as I suggested?  Did you make sure she performed all the required elements?  Did you look at the extra elements to see if something was from a higher-level?  Sounds like you're looking for a magic button to push and it doesn't exist.

You and your daughter shouldn't compete until you're both ready to accept defeat gracefully and have an experienced, certified coach that can guide you properly without your second-guessing.   

[jumpingbeansmom]

If you look though the Archives, you will find a post I am embarassed I wrote at least 7 years ago. ISI comp, didnt get why my lovely wonderful daughter didnt place the way we thought! Fast forward 7 years, still competing and its the way skating was and still is!!Because there are always things to inprove upon,  I would just take it like  that. The others could have just had one more revolution, just a bit better flow, you never know.
If she did her best, that is what she can take away from this.My kids have placed first, last, they know its the journey not just the medals.What she can work on is just improving her skating !
I agree that this is just an experience that she will build upon.There is no way to predicate how a skater does based on low levels.In fact the skaters that  placed higher than by DD 7 years ago,placed lower at regionals the last two years.They are all at the same level, even now ;
Good luck!

This is very true, many of the girls who consistently beat dd at No Test, don't even skate the level she skates now (some are several levels behind).

[drskater]

WARNING: this post is pretty long--

Falen,

Thank you for providing the opportunity for this important discussion!

When I read over the advice and observations in this thread, I see a great deal of experienced coaches/skaters/parents offering you some incredibly valuable insights.  I know you already know this, but losing a competition (even placing last) is not really a bad thing. Hopefully, the experience will motivate your daughter to continue moving up the ISI test ladder and enter more competitions. Each level is a completely different ball game; the girl who comes in last in FS 1 may really shine at FS 4.

ISI really is about providing recreational skaters with fun opportunities to gain competition experience.  It sounds like you would like to learn more. I suggest that you read over the latest edition of the ISI Handbook. There is an entire section on Event Judging that may help you better understand the process (pp. 273-305).

There was one sentence in the OP that really struck me: you mentioned that other observers said that your DD was the best.  You should be proud that she made a positive impression and won a few fans. Believe me, that is not easy to do! Indeed, that augurs well for her.

Now, just for the kicks and giggles, I'd like to imagine a scenario where the most impressive skater does not win her FS 1 solo. I do so simply to underscore some of the complexity of judging, of putting a program together, and to highlight some specific issues related to ISI events.

I'm going to pretend that I am judging everything (this does not happen in real life): Spiral, BO & BI edges, Forward pivot, Two-foot spin, Half-Flip, and Waltz jump; Correctness, Duration, Extra Content, Pattern, Posture, Rhythm, and General Overall.  There are four competitors. I'm giving myself God-like powers of observation. I'm also a bit of a stickler for the rules and am highly inflexible. No single item is a "killer," but little issues add up in the end.

(Remember everything looks good to the crowd) This is what I see:

All the spirals were good, but a few of the other competitors added a bit more difficulty by holding the position longer or by doing the spiral on an edge.

Forward Pivot: it is not necessary to pivot four times around; I only needed to see one and half. I appreciated the fact that the other skaters added some interesting arm movements.

BO & BI edges: Everybody was equally poor on the BI; however, all the other competitors did not add toe pushes and at least two maintained a true edge throughout.

Waltz Jump: One competitor fell on this but she added another one later in the program and that is the only one I marked for this particular test maneuver.  I didn't really care for the 17 crossovers it took to set up "Impressive"'s jump; I didn't mind the huge kick out on the landing (though it looked like a backwards spiral) but the other competitors held their landings ever so slightly better.

Half Flip—"Impressive" didn't technically do one—she did a quarter Flip instead. I'll give her some credit in the extra content category, but she gets no credit for a correct Half-Flip.

Two-foot spin: "Impressive" entered her spin on one foot, rotated three times and then rotated on two feet four times. Everyone else did 6 revolutions on two feet.

Extra Content: "Impressive" did a bunny-hop, a lunge, and shoot the duck. On the bunny hop, she did not extend her free leg behind her for the glide; on the lunge and shoot the duck she stood up on two-feet. The other competitors managed some extra content of their own but it wasn't as snazzy. "Impressive" scores highest for EC.

"Impressive" had a great skate. Still, I'm a heartless judge, and I want to send a message to her coach and all coaches who ever have or will walk the earth. Snazzy, showy arm-waving, running on toe-picks, and grabbing your blade is not what I consider real skating. So, I'm marking you down in General Overall and Rhythm. Also, you were nearly four seconds over your ten-second leeway and, since I have to find some things to differentiate between all these fantastic skaters, I'm deducting 2 points.

Please note that in real life most judges are nice people. They don't really like to rank skaters but like Icedancer 2 pointed out, it is just part of the system. If the results of DD's competition disappointed you, just go out and get 'em next time!!

[falen]

Thanks.  I really do need to have this education.  I am a details type person and I just seem lost because I don't know these kind of details.  Your comments are really encouraging.  Knowing this I can look for it during practice and at least when she asks how it looked, at least I can say more than "looks good to me".  Unless they fall or look drunk, it all looks good.

The spin is exactly that work weak I think.  Yes she did the 6 but it took a lot longer than the others.   As for the rest of the program we looked and everything was legal and there.

[Sk8tmum]

Thanks.  I really do need to have this education.  I am a details type person and I just seem lost because I don't know these kind of details.  Your comments are really encouraging.  Knowing this I can look for it during practice and at least when she asks how it looked, at least I can say more than "looks good to me".  Unless they fall or look drunk, it all looks good.

ACtually, I never say anything other than "it looks good to me".  I leave it to the coach to critique/praise/develop the jumps and elements and skating.  I've been caught more than once with being frustrated because a jump/spin/element looks awful, terrible, poorly done, but, that's because I didn't know that the coach was re-teaching it, improving it, reworking it for a goal of making it better. If I start saying something "needs work" or "should be held longer" or whatever, particularly when my kids were younger, I would be stepping into my coach's territory - maybe something is just fine as it is, and that's what the coach wants at this particular time.  For questions about comp performance ... I send the kids back to the coach.  The coach is the one that needs to explain and "coach" the kid through it. Now, if I'm asked to count revs or something in a practice session by a coach - I'll do it - but, I just want to let the people I trust do the work.