Boot Help... Again

[Mom2NewSkater]

Back in August, I took my daughter (11 yo) to a pro shop to figure out what level boot she needed and the boot that fit her best (about a four hour drive one way).  At the time, she switched from a Riedell (only skate our rink sales) Emerald to a Jackson Elle.  She has loved her Jacksons.  After our spring show dress rehearsal Friday night, she tells me she thinks they are getting too small (UGH).  On Saturday my husband/her dad took her to the rink for them to measure her.  They measured her at a 5 1/2 Riedell.  Her boots are 5 1/2 Jacksons.  I know different brands run different in size.  What I can't figure out is if Jackson runs smaller than Riedell or vice versa.  I've been trying to look on the web to determine.  It appears to me that Jackson runs bigger than Riedell.  If that is the case, it seems to me if she measures 5 1/2 Riedell then her 5 1/2 Jacksons should be fine.  Do you all know which runs bigger?

Her complaint right now is her pinkie toes.  She does say her big toes are at the end of the boots, but she isn't complaining about them hurting.  Is it possible that the area of the pinkie toe could be punched out to extend her wear?  If you think that will work, do you think it would be possible for me to mark where they hurt and ship them to the pro shop to have them punched?  I'd hate to make an eight hour trip just to have the boots punched.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but I'll go ahead and ask.  If her boot size goes up, does that mean she will need a new blade?  We went ahead and got her a coronation ace instead of the stock blade.  My guess is she will need a new blade.

Last but not least, her Jackson have not held up that well in terms of appearance.  For example, the finish has worn off on the inside of one of the boots.  I'm assuming this is from her lunges.  Is this typical?  We never had this issue with her Riedells.  Those were more beginner skates, so maybe they are made to take more abuse???

[davincisop]

I would try punching out the pinkie toe to see if that'll buy you a few extra months.

Some skaters if they aren't going up too far in boot sizes will just keep their current blade until the blade is too short.

[FigureSpins]

I measure at a Ladies/Adult Riedell 6.5D but a Jackson 7.5C  The different manufacturers use different measurements for their sizing, and they also vary based on skate model/line. 
Your best bet is to have her feet measured using the correct measuring device.  If she's in Jacksons and you're happy with them, ask them to measure her with the Jackson tool.
Sounds the pro shop had Riedells in stock and was hoping for a quick sale.

In the meantime, get the boots stretched/punched out or try a thinner insole/sock to make room inside the boot.  The pro shop can stretch/punch out.  If her toes are at the very front of the skate, stretching is better than punching out the pinkie toe area.

You may be able to have the blade moved to the new boots, but you won't know for certain until the new boots have been purchased and can be measured.  If her current blade plates are mounted end-to-end, there's a very good chance that the blades can be reused.

Lunges will wear down the inside edge of the sole.  Some skaters use tape to protect that area and the upper as well.  It didn't happen with her previous because they were PVC, not leather and cork.

[Sibelius]

First make sure she is tightening the laces sufficiently.  We had a similar issue and drove to the shop (lucky for us it's only 25 minutes away) expecting to buy new skates, but the fitter tied them and her heel moved back enough to make them feel fine again.  The Elle can be stretched as well, but it takes overnight to do it.  Our fitter said a GOOD cobbler/boot maker can do it if you have one local.  Oh, by the way, she wears a 2B Jackson, but would fit into a 1B in Riedell.  Both mfgs. have size charts available on their websites.

We thought we were in the clear for a couple of months at least, but then she broke a boot hook and we had to replace the skates anyway.  Still under warranty, and Jackson is sending a replacement, but we went with the next skate up (your daughter's Elle). Great customer service from Jackson though. So now we'll have a brand new Artiste to sell or donate somewhere soon.

We're gulping a bit because her current coach asked her next coach what he recommends and it's SP Teri. So 6 months from now it will be the big $$$.

[DressmakingMomma]

I feel like the best way to measure for boots is to trace the foot. Harlick's custom boot information is online in pdf form and goes through how to do that. Then you can call the pro shop or even Jackson with the measurements and just get their feedback before making the  hour trip.

Punching the pinkie sounds like a good idea. I bought my own wooden boot stretcher from amazon that includes plastic rounded pieces to add to the stretcher in order to punch out areas and it has come in so handy. Very well worth the money - just go slowly so you don't overstretch and pop a seam on the skate.

My kid's skates get trashed, we chalk it up to working hard. I used to use a spray polish when they became really scuffed, but now she doesn't like me to do that since she sees it as a badge of honor.

[AgnesNitt]

You can also put a lace bite pad (use a piece of cheap shoe insole) behind the boot tongue. That will push the heel back in the counter.

[Ethereal Ice]

It appears to me that Jackson runs bigger than Riedell.  If that is the case, it seems to me if she measures 5 1/2 Riedell then her 5 1/2 Jacksons should be fine.  Do you all know which runs bigger?

Her complaint right now is her pinkie toes.  She does say her big toes are at the end of the boots, but she isn't complaining about them hurting.  Is it possible that the area of the pinkie toe could be punched out to extend her wear?  If you think that will work, do you think it would be possible for me to mark where they hurt and ship them to the pro shop to have them punched?  I'd hate to make an eight hour trip just to have the boots punched.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but I'll go ahead and ask.  If her boot size goes up, does that mean she will need a new blade?  We went ahead and got her a coronation ace instead of the stock blade.  My guess is she will need a new blade.

Last but not least, her Jackson have not held up that well in terms of appearance.  For example, the finish has worn off on the inside of one of the boots.  I'm assuming this is from her lunges.  Is this typical?  We never had this issue with her Riedells.  Those were more beginner skates, so maybe they are made to take more abuse???

I agree with those who say that she should be measured using Jackson's system, to my knowledge they do not run the same as a Riedell in sizing. Double check that her heel is all the way back as others have mentioned and make sure her socks are as thin as can be, I like the "trouser socks" or skating tights which are really thin, but strong. If it still seems too small, speak with the pro shop prior, but you absolutely should be able to extend the life of the boot by marking where you wish the punch out to be and sending them. You might talk to the pro shop also about stretching the toe box since she mentioned that her toe was now touching. We had some too-short skates that my husband was using for a while and got the toe box stretched and it made it slightly more bearable for him, it may extend the life of the skates for your daughter. 

As for blade, you very well may be able to continue to use this blade if the new boots are really only a half size up, you won't know until you get them. Blades can often be a bit flexible as far as going up or down about half a boot size, it depends on the actual length of the new boot. As for the boots wearing out asthetically, it would seem your daughter is likely advancing her skating and having more contact on the ice. Reidells will wear down too with lunges. I wear the cheap lycra boot covers and leg warmers hooked over the heel and back 2/3 of my boot creating a double layer to protect my skates. They make all kinds of boot covers, one man I skate with at the rink who does a ton of lunges and other moves where his boots drag, wears the thicker zippered neoprene covers and his boots look fine. To me covers are easier than skate tape, but to each his own, YMMV.

One last thought regarding the blade size. Especially if you can extend the life of these boots, I don't know how old your daughter is or how fast she seems to be growing, but in the end you may be better off getting a full size larger with new blade and all if she's expected to continue growing.

[Query]

1. FWIIW, stock Reidell's are much less wide at the toes for a given size than stock Jacksons and probably Harlicks. It sounds like Jackson's, or Harlicks, might be a better fit for her than Reidell.

2. Things to push the foot back will only help if her heel isn't already firmly touching the back of the skate.

3. I hope punching the boots out near the pinky toes solves her problem!

4. I use boot covers, but I have to replace them periodically.  A lot of people don't worry much about a little wear on the side of the boot from lunges. But these instructions, from one of the world's best respected skate techs, looks interesting, though I've not tried them:

  http://www.askmredge.com/blog/2012/12/sk8tape-how-to-tape-your-skates/

Tape is very cheap.

[skatemom189]

Yes, you can just mark on the boot where to punch the pinkie toes, and then Chris will punch them there.  He punches the pinkie toes of each of my DDs boots as her foot grows down into them.  Have him stretch the boots for length too.
Perhaps you should buy a Jackson measuring device, like the shops have, so you won't have to guess about future sizes.  You should be able to find one online.  Don't try to guess with the reidell one. You need to measure for width at the ball and heel too, remember, not just length.

[Mom2NewSkater]

Thank you for all the input. 

Couple of comments.  Our rink only sells Riedells.  It is only one of two rinks in WV and the only rink open year round in WV.  The rink does not have a pro shop.  Basically I think the only reason they sell Riedell is to give people who want their own skates an option of purchasing something without having to buy online or travel to a pro shop.  I think that is fine for beginners or recreational skaters, but I felt as my daughter started testing and competing that we needed to go to a professional.

I still lace/tie my daughter's skates, because she can't get them tight enough.  We always set the heel of her boot/back of blade on the ground and she pushes back before I lace them.  I always ask if her heal is back all they way, and she says yes.  I guess it is possible it isn't, but it seems like it is.

The reason we switched to Jacksons was because of the extra room in the toe box.  Riedells always seemed to pinch her toes.  We don't intend to go back to Riedells.

I'm glad to hear the wear on the boot seems pretty normal.  I will probably get boot covers for her to use with the next pair. 

I'm also glad to hear we might be able to use the blade again.  I guess if we can't, I can always try to sell it.

I've tried to find the Jackson measuring tool online and have had NO luck.  I'm not sure if I'm not searching the right thing or what.  Basically all that pops up is the sizing chart.

So who can tell me about Edeas?  Are they a lot lighter than other skates?  Do they have a roomy toe box?  Are they hard to switch to (I've heard they are because of the higher heel and shorter blade)? 

Last question for now... does anyone know about Ohio State University's pro shop in Columbus, OH?  We absolutely loved Skater's Edge in Cleveland, but four hours one way is a pretty long trip.  We can get to Columbus in about 2 1/2 to 3 hours.  Almost all of the serious skaters at our rink go to Skater's Edge though, so I've heard no talk about the OSU pro shop.  Just wondering if anyone has experience with OSU.

Again thank you all for your input and information!

[dlbritton]

A little bit of a side-track (about boot sizing).

I am in Riedell mens 8 1/2 Wide rather than Jacksons (which is what my rink normally fits/sells) because the Riedell mens wide are "wider" in the toe box than the Jackson mens wide for a given length. I don't recall about the medium width because I knew I would need a wide boot, nor do I know if this applies to girls/womens sizes.

It would be nice if there was some standardization on sizing. I wear a mens 10W street shoe and can generally try on most any street/athletic shoe in a 10W and it will fit.

[Bill_S]

I live in Athens and have purchased all my skates at OSU's rink. The previous fitter was Duke who established OSU's reputation as the place to go if you didn't want to go to Skater's Edge. He fitted all mine, but has since retired.

There is now someone who was Duke's understudy, Tony Habart, fitting figure skates.

All in all, they had a good reputation in the past. I'd call to see what brands they carry now. I was always satisfied with Riedells purchased from them.

More...

I asked a skater who goes to OSU weekly for lessons a few months back about the new fitter. Here's her response...

"Tony Habart took over the figure skating part from Duke. his
e-mail is habart.1@osu.edu.

Tony got very busy and he asks that people make appointments with
him for figure skating work -- either e-mail (that works for me best) or
call the rink 614-292-4154.

I learned that OSU is the only place in Columbus that can punch figure skates --

I would have expected the Chiller has a machine also, but they do not."

[Query]

Our rink... is only one of two rinks in WV and the only rink open year round in WV.  The rink does not have a pro shop.  Basically I think the only reason they sell Riedell is to give people who want their own skates an option of purchasing something without having to buy online or travel to a pro shop.  I think that is fine for beginners or recreational skaters, but I felt as my daughter started testing and competing that we needed to go to a professional.
[/quote]

There may be other WV rinks:
  http://iceskatingresources.org/WestVirginia.html
  http://findrinks.com/rinks/states/WVSkatingRinks.jsp
  http://www.arenamaps.com/search.php?position=0&state=WV&arena_name=&city=&sort_field2=city_sorter&sort_field=arena_name
  http://www.openicetimes.com/westvirginiarinks/index.html
  https://www.canaanresort.com/ski-winter-activities/ice-skating/ (I've been there: outdoors, dubious maintenance)
 
But as you know, WV is a big state with lots of mountains and rivers in the way. (Which makes it really great, for many people.) The others may not be suitable for you. And outdoor rinks aren't open now. Also, web sites can't keep track of rinks that have closed.

So who can tell me about Edeas?  Are they a lot lighter than other skates?  Do they have a roomy toe box?

Lighter than many other skates, which would be wonderful - but check out the ultralight Harlick models too. The Edeas I looked at, years ago, had rather narrow toe boxes. They heat mold differently from most figure and hockey skates, due to different materials - you may need a real specialist.

[Mom2NewSkater]

Thanks for the additional info. 

We may have to try to find more information on Columbus.  That is a much easier drive for us. 

I know for sure that the Huntington rink is closed.  That is where my daughter's coach, who is also the Director of Skating at our rink in South Charleston lives.  When she bought a house, she specifically bought in Huntington close to the rink.  Then it closed.  Now she drives 40 to 45 minutes one way each day to our rink.  Big Sandy Superstore Arena in Huntington doesn't have one.  The one in Mac Arthur, WV is a roller skating rink.  Wesbanco Arena in Wheeling may have had one at some point, but it does not appear they have one now.  It appears there is one at Wheeling Park, but I can't tell if it is outdoor or not.  It is open mid-October to mid-March.  Charleston Civic Center no longer has one (South Charleston basically replaced it).  The Greenbrier is an outdoor rink.  The one at Canaan is outdoor as you mentioned.  They have gotten a small zamboni now, so the ice/skating is much better.  My daughter skated three shows there this past winter.  When she found out her coach was going, she did not want to go, because the one time she had skated there the ice was awful!  It was much, much better than the first time.  The first night she skated it was 4 degrees and windchill was well below zero... bbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrr 

I appreciate you trying to help me out to find other places. 

I thought Edeas were known for smaller toe boxes.  I'm pretty sure they put her in a Jackson, because she needed the extra room (and she says it was a night and day difference from the Riedells).  I just wish they were lighter, and I'm sure they will only get heavier as she moves up to stiffer skates.  So does Harlick have bigger toe boxes?

[dlbritton]

I thought Edeas were known for smaller toe boxes.  I'm pretty sure they put her in a Jackson, because she needed the extra room (and she says it was a night and day difference from the Riedells).  I just wish they were lighter, and I'm sure they will only get heavier as she moves up to stiffer skates.  So does Harlick have bigger toe boxes?

At Adult Nationals I was able to try on several pairs/sizes of stock Edeas and they seemed comfortable even though I measure a "wide" boot.
Edea uses mondo/centimeter sizing. I needed either a 275 or 280. The 275 in a Chorus was too small, length and width but a 280 felt pretty good.
It would definitely need some tweaking. The Ice Fly in a 280 fit like a glove. I probably could skate it with little or no adjustment.

David Ripp, the Edea rep at nationals I spoke to said that if I widened the toe box in a Chorus or Ice Fly it would actually shorten the boot slightly which would give me an even better fit.

When I left, I thought "Of course my feet would like to $750 boot and not the $400 boot".

[Query]

Great that Canaan Valley has a Zam now.

I guess WV's roads, economics, and low population density combine to make it hard to keep an ice rink open.

Could you set up a back yard rink in the winter?

I would really hate to suggest you set up a synthetic (greased plastic, more or less) ice rink. You pretty much need to resharpen after every skate. Even if you do it yourself, carefully, that wastes a lot of metal.

I looked at Jackson's size chart. All it lists is shoe size (I guess) and total foot length - which is secondary importance to heel-to-ball length, according to Mike Cunningham, an experienced fitter. Maybe you should get sizes and widths from a standard Brannock device?? Skate boot companies sometimes send out reps to train pro shop people how to measure for their brand of boot, which varies from brand to brand (according to Mike). If you are there at the right time, the reps will measure you themselves, and you can ask boot companies when a company rep, or someone very good, will be available at a place near you, especially if you travel to comps.

[DressmakingMomma]

Stock Harlicks can be ordered in x-line which has a wider, more rounded toebox and narrower heel. They also have a lightweight option with carbon fiber soles. As it was explained to me, the thing about lighter boots is that the difference isn't that great once you add in the weight of the blade.My kid says going from one to the other wasn't noticeable in terms of weight.

My daughter has had three pairs of Harlicks and they are the only boot that has worked for her but because she truly needs a full custom with her foot shape. We tried several pairs of Edea Ice Flies, including a special order D width, and we just couldn't make them work even with a well qualified tech. She also tried several pairs of special order Jacksons, which were the most painful of the skates she has tried. I guess you have to find what is comfortable and stick with them. If Jacksons work for her, then I don't know that switching to anything else will be an advantage. I regret having wasted time, money and huge levels of frustration on other boots in search of something better when we already had a boot company (albeit very expensive) that worked.

[tstop4me]

I'm pretty sure they put her in a Jackson, because she needed the extra room (and she says it was a night and day difference from the Riedells).  I just wish they were lighter, and I'm sure they will only get heavier as she moves up to stiffer skates. 

In late 2016, Jackson introduced the lightweight Elite 5000 series boots, fabricated primarily from synthetic materials.  They are available in a range of stiffnesses.  If your daughter is happy with the Jackson fit, and your primary concern is weight, perhaps you should look into the new lightweight line.