Hard or Soft Ice

[tstop4me]

Most of what I've read boils down to hockey players prefer hard ice because it's faster and figure skaters prefer soft ice because it gives them deeper edges.  Exceptions apply, of course.  One rink manager I spoke to years ago told me that one well-known figure skater was a rare exception.  Whenever rinks hosted shows in which he was the star attraction, he would always insist on hard ice.

During the summer, the ice at my rink is noticeably softer than during the winter.  But it's difficult to do an A/B comparison, because there are other problems during the summer:  the dehumidifers can't keep up, it drizzles in the rink, and mounds and holes form in the ice.  During the past month+, however, there have been problems with the refrigeration system, and the ice has varied from hard to soft frequently, without the other attendant changes:  so I've been able to get a fair comparison. 

I seem to be an exception; I definitely prefer hard ice.  I don't do jumps; I concentrate on edge work and spins.  On hard ice, my consecutive edges flow, I complete the lobes on my figure 8's without effort, and I make passable attempts at a 1-ft spin.  On soft ice, my consecutive edges stumble, I struggle to complete the lobes on my figure 8's, and my blade grinds into the ice when I attempt a 1-ft spin.  I know that soft ice per se is not limiting, because little girls are jumping and spinning like mad on the same ice.

I'd like to hear from others:  Do you like hard ice or soft ice all the time?  Do you have a preference for hard or soft ice for certain maneuvers, such as figures, jumps, spins, or dance?  If so, please specify which maneuvers.

[lutefisk]

What I like is consistent ice.  By that I mean-- what I'm used to!  I always have an adjustment period whenever I go to a different rink than my home ice.  This is particularly so if I'm testing rather than just being an ice tourist.  Hard ice seems faster to me.  The sensation is similar to when I stop midway through a session and retie my boots.  Returning to the ice, home or away after a retie, makes me think that someone has tied rockets onto my skates when I wasn't looking!  Anyway, after a familiarization period of about 10 to 15 minutes my legs adapt to either hard ice or retied skates.  Getting back to your question, I can't say as to whether or not I have a preference--either is fine so long as it's smooth.  What I don't like is "brittle" ice.  I can't seem to hold an edge on that kind of surface.

[Bill_S]

I'm a soft ice kind of guy.

I can edge deeper, it's quieter and there isn't the "chunking" or giving-way of ice under edges when seeking power or deeper edges. Sometimes the ice giving-way suddenly displaces my blades sideways, and that can be disconcerting.

I can center spins better on soft ice too.

In the typically colder winters of the 1960s, I skated on the hard, clear, crystalline ice of frozen ponds and lakes. Skating in a rink felt like skating on the surface of a giant bar of soap, but now I'm addicted to it.

[Matsumoto]

This is an interesting question.  I prefer softer ice for edges, jumps, and spins.  Edge jumps (Salchow, loop) seem a lot more difficult on really hard ice.  That being said, I don't really have the option to skate on soft ice since my rink always caters to the hockey leagues so the ice is always fairly hard; I have just learned to adapt over the years.

[Loops]

I like it softer.  Our rink has hard hockey ice, and today it seemed particularly hard.

[icedancer]

I like good ice!!  You know it when you feel it underneath your blades!!

We have 4 rinks in our area - all with varying degrees of softness/hardness - and they have changed over the years and also change with the seasons.

My least favorite rink (also the furthest from where I live) - they keep the ice very hard, it is also EXTREMELY cold but the surface is actually very beautiful - it takes a while to get used to it - and it is very fast.

An old favorite has good ice but is VERY crowded most of the time - but when I used to skate there I like the ice - WHEN it was good -

The mall rink has the weirdest ice - and now that it is smaller it is hard to say - it is fast and I'm not sure I run into the walls because it is so small or because it is fast -

One rink in our area used to have the best ice - figure skaters loved it because the ice was "springy" and they liked how the jumps felt - it had a good soft/hard ratio for edges and figures

So over the years I find that there is more that goes into the experience than just the ice surface.  Our really cold, hard-icde fast rink also is completely white - the walls are white, the ceiling is white, the ice is white and I find it completely disconcertin - a lot of the adults don't like it.

The old hockey rink has a wood beam ceiling and so that makes the experience very pleasant somehow -

The mall rink - well it is new and still getting used to it - and it is small and still feels like a construction zone.  It might be nicer once they open up the mall more - in it's old incarnation it had a low overhang at the end and I didn't like skating under that...

And the "formerly springy-ice" rink is okay if they turn the lights up - otherwise the lighting is rather dim.  That rink is slated to close at some point in the future though which is unfortunate.

The best ice I ever skated on was in Salt Lake City in the rinks that were built as practice rinks for the 2002 Olympics - it was beautiful!!

I used to be picky about ice-surface - not so much anymore - I will take what I can get!

[ChristyRN]

I'm with Lutefish--consistent ice is best. I rotate between three rinks most of the time and am used to their ice, good or bac. I never really knew what people meant when they said "fast" ice until I went to Peach last year. When I did practice ice, I felt like I was flying! It took no time to get around the rink and made my timing off.

[AgnesNitt]

Our rink has hard, hard ice in the winter--hockey season. In the summer it's slightly softer. I'm working on an experiment to change ROH between summer and winter. 7/16 in winter, 1/2 or 9/16 in the summer.
I've skated as small as 3/8 on hard ice, but I didn't have strong skills then and thought it might be too much. I may work my way down there.

[Query]

Soft is nice!

But - since one of our surfaces is outdoors, and we get the full range there - so not TOO soft. When you see big puddles, it's not as nice - although a slight amount of water, I actually like it better in some ways - the ice gets very fast. (But - too deep means the water slows you down. Plus, it splashes, and you get wet.)

BTW, when I've skated on outdoor ponds and lakes, with water below the frozen ice, I would not go on ice so soft it was dangerous.

One of the differences some people have might be degree of sharpness. You need sharper edges on hard ice, or the blade won't bite.

Good hockey players tend to use very deep edges, to the point that they skid, a lot. The skidding sometimes actually helps their technique, and the speed with which they can make direction changes and stops. (I'm not clear on the physics, as to why it helps, but they insist it does.) Skidding is easier on hard ice. In addition, hockey players sometimes have trouble with the deep grooves that figure skaters cut into soft ice, so they like it better when you can't make those deep grooves. I'm not exactly sure why the grooves are a problem, but many of them insist that it is.

Whereas good figure skaters tend to use the edge depth that results in little or no skid (except on stops), because that seems to be part of figure skating standards.

I find it a little easier to move smoothly on soft ice, because I don't have to push as hard - but with sharp edges, I only barely notice the difference.

BTW, there is such a thing as too cold and hard, even for hockey players. Below some temperature, their blades don't bite much either, despite the very aggressive pushing styles they tend to use, and a little colder than that, the ice gets sticky and slow.

I think the difference between optimal hockey and figure ice is only 2 or 3 degrees, though people disagree on exactly what is good. Most of the curling people around here prefer warmer and softer than either. I forget what the speed skaters like.

Ice roughness is a completely different issue. If your dehumidifier can't keep up, or your surface gets rained on, or they don't smooth the ice often enough, you are likely to have rough ice. Sharper edges definitely cut much better through rough ice. I keep edges sharp, but I still prefer smooth. A few hockey players like to roughen up the ice - it helps them deal with deep grooves left by figure skaters, they say. (Yuk.)

Another issue is air temperature. Hockey players dress very warmly, because of all the protective gear, and they tend to overheat. So they like the air a little colder. But I have heard hockey players complain when they didn't dress warmly enough for the bitter cold wind at an outdoor rink - especially when they are at someone else's outdoor rink, and weren't expecting the cold wind.

There are a bunch of other ice issues too, depending on how deep the Zamboni (etc.) is set to cut, and how much water they apply after cutting it. For example, I have skated at a rink where they don't cut deep enough. You could feel the residual roughness even right after the Zamboni finishes. Interestingly enough, you couldn't see the hockey circles very well either, because the roughness made the surface all white.

What it boils down to is that ice conditions seem to be very complicated. And your skate sharpness chances what you can deal with too. Plus, your practice and experience. You can get used to almost anything. A lot of figure and hockey skaters around here practice on many types of ice, so they can handle it when they have to.

What I really hate is dirty ice... Often a problem outdoors, for various reasons.

[tstop4me]

Our rink has hard, hard ice in the winter--hockey season. In the summer it's slightly softer. I'm working on an experiment to change ROH between summer and winter. 7/16 in winter, 1/2 or 9/16 in the summer.
I've skated as small as 3/8 on hard ice, but I didn't have strong skills then and thought it might be too much. I may work my way down there.

For your experiment to work, you need a sharpener who checks the calibration of his dressing jig and who dresses his wheel carefully.  I grew suspicious of one guy, so I bought a Hollow Depth Indicator (HDI) gauge.  I always asked for a 7/16" ROH, but what I got ranged from 7/16" to 9/16".  I dropped him.  My current guy is more consistent, but to get 7/16", I need to ask for 3/8".  Also, some sharpeners hand finish the hollow with a cylindrical or conical honing stone to get rid of chatter marks from power grinding; hand finishing can lead to variations in the final effective ROH.

[tstop4me]

A few hockey players like to roughen up the ice - it helps them deal with deep grooves left by figure skaters, they say. (Yuk.)

At my rink, it's the other way around:  the figure skaters complain about the deep ruts left by the hockey players.

[tstop4me]

What I really hate is dirty ice... Often a problem outdoors, for various reasons.

Same here.  I skate only on indoor rinks these days, but on occasion debris from the Zamboni treads get embedded in the ice.  A real hazard. 

[AgnesNitt]

For your experiment to work, you need a sharpener who checks the calibration of his dressing jig and who dresses his wheel carefully.  I grew suspicious of one guy, so I bought a Hollow Depth Indicator (HDI) gauge.  I always asked for a 7/16" ROH, but what I got ranged from 7/16" to 9/16".  I dropped him.  My current guy is more consistent, but to get 7/16", I need to ask for 3/8".  Also, some sharpeners hand finish the hollow with a cylindrical or conical honing stone to get rid of chatter marks from power grinding; hand finishing can lead to variations in the final effective ROH.

Yeah, I'm sure he can do it. If not, I've got another guy who will.

[lutefisk]

From my very limited watching of hockey games it seems that the "finesse" portion of a match occurs during the first period when, I assume, the ice is at it's hardest and fastest condition.  After the in-between period ice cuts, the surface probably doesn't have time enough to truly harden off and so the players throw finesse out the window and go into lumbering bear mode slogging/slugging their way to the end of the match as the ice gets softer and softer.  Is this a "theory" or just a "notion"?

[Query]

Hollow depth discussions are a bit off-topic, but:

For your experiment to work, you need a sharpener who checks the calibration of his dressing jig and who dresses his wheel carefully.  I grew suspicious of one guy, so I bought a Hollow Depth Indicator (HDI) gauge.  I always asked for a 7/16" ROH, but what I got ranged from 7/16" to 9/16".  I dropped him.  My current guy is more consistent, but to get 7/16", I need to ask for 3/8".  Also, some sharpeners hand finish the hollow with a cylindrical or conical honing stone to get rid of chatter marks from power grinding; hand finishing can lead to variations in the final effective ROH.

Most hand finishing (and any good skate tech does hand finish) is to do one or more of:

1. Repoint the sideways pointing sharpening burr into a downwards pointing foil edge.
2. Polish the sides of the edge - especially if #1 is done, because the wheel only polishes one side.
3. Get rid of the sharpest portion of the edge, because many people don't like skates too sharp, and it is too fragile to walk on off-ice, even on rubber, without blade guards. The sharpest part of the edge is very close to the sides of the (chrome relief section of the) blade.
4. Straighten out the edge.
5. Complete deburr the edge.

I haven't seen anyone touch up the hollow. There will be no visible chatter marks if you sharpen with a fine grain wheel, and you lubricate the blade with an oil or polishing fluid first.

Of course, on steel there will be microscopic roughness on many scales, including the fact that the edge height is always quite ragged - you can see the initial raggedness, before hand finishing, with a 50-100x optical microscope, on a size scale not much smaller than the mean difference in height between the sides and center, even when the sharpening is done by an expert skate tech. I have wondered whether that raggedness isn't a part of what makes sharpened steel skate blades cut into the ice, but don't know how to tell.

Smaller scale roughness cannot be eliminated in sharpened steel, as you can see if you look at electron micrographs of sharpened razor blades.

(Properly stropped razor blades get rid of most of the edge raggedness - but that nothing that subtle is done to skate blades. And electron micrographs show that smaller scale roughness remains even after stropping. Maybe someone like you who understands material science can explain why to me - maybe it is due to a property of steel, or to the way sharpening and polishing is done by abrasives?)

If you use a coarse wheel, or you sharpen much too quickly, or don't use an oil or fluid, maybe you can't avoid visible chatter marks? But that would just indicate a poor skate tech, or one pushed by management to work too quickly.

If you do #1 and/or #3, and possibly #5, or don't do #4, I don't think a simple depth-based indicator can possibly give a correct reading of hollow radius, because I think it is designed to estimate hollow radius - and indirectly to estimate edge angle (which many believe to be the most important characteristic) from that, simply by measuring the height difference between the sides and more or less the middle of the hollow. But side height won't be "right" if anything is done to the edge that makes it not be the shape of an intersection between a cylindrical hollow and a vertical side wall. The edge angle will also be estimated wrong if the blade has vertical side honing - and if there is horizontal side-honing, edge angle and hollow depth will (and should) vary along the blade, because blade thickness varies.

Incidentally, hollow radius might also be estimated wrong by depth-based gauges if the sharpening isn't new - because skating also grinds off the sharpest part of the edge.

I think you have said before that you have seen inconsistent hollow radii on different portions of the blade. Maybe it is really a difference in how the blade was hand finished? And that could apply to what you are talking about now too?

The only way a height-based depth gauge could consistently estimate hollow radius right is if it ignores the sides of the blade, where hand finishing and wear affect shape, and just looks at points very close to the center. Does your depth-based gauge do that?

[Christy]

We have hard ice because the only people that matter are the hockey players, so if we're lucky we get hard ice without too many gouges but most of the time we get hard ice with gouges. Ideally I'd like soft ice with no gouges but that maybe happens once a year.

We also get lumps and bumps, plus dirty / muddy ice indoors and there are times when you wonder where they've driven the zamboni.

[tstop4me]

From my very limited watching of hockey games it seems that the "finesse" portion of a match occurs during the first period when, I assume, the ice is at it's hardest and fastest condition.  After the in-between period ice cuts, the surface probably doesn't have time enough to truly harden off and so the players throw finesse out the window and go into lumbering bear mode slogging/slugging their way to the end of the match as the ice gets softer and softer.  Is this a "theory" or just a "notion"?

Not sure what level hockey you're referring to.  But what you describe is not typical of the NHL games I've watched.  Often the most exciting plays happen during sudden-death overtime. 

I've skated at rinks in which the ice surface stays wet for several minutes after the Zam clears the ice.  At other rinks, the ice is ready to rip right away.

[Meli]

I spin better on hard ice, but jump better on soft ice.

Sometimes when the ice is too hard, I feel like I just can't get my edges in, which diminishes my overall "feel" for the ice.

[Loops]

Sometimes when the ice is too hard, I feel like I just can't get my edges in, which diminishes my overall "feel" for the ice.

Ugh.  don't I know it.  Our local pro team made the playoffs this year, and I swear they've made the ice colder.  I can't seem to bite into it (usually NOT a problem) and feel really uncomfortable on it.  Thank heavens we don't jump here. I feel for those who are less stable than me, and on shallower grinds.  Hopefully they'll raise the temperature at least a smidge once these games are over.  We'll never have nice soft freestyle ice here, but this uber-fast stuff is driving me nuts.

[Query]

My understanding, BTW, is that ice is more "springy" if the rink is built on some types of foundation than others.

It's complicated though - many rinks have multiple foundation levels, including concrete, sand, and maybe other materials. And there might be a difference between absorbing impact, which sand does pretty well, and springing up to help you jump.

Low gravity arenas would be nice for those of us who have trouble jumping! Of course, you would need sharper edges to get any bite, but on the whole, I'd love it.

[Doubletoe]

For your experiment to work, you need a sharpener who checks the calibration of his dressing jig and who dresses his wheel carefully.  I grew suspicious of one guy, so I bought a Hollow Depth Indicator (HDI) gauge.  I always asked for a 7/16" ROH, but what I got ranged from 7/16" to 9/16".  I dropped him.  My current guy is more consistent, but to get 7/16", I need to ask for 3/8".  Also, some sharpeners hand finish the hollow with a cylindrical or conical honing stone to get rid of chatter marks from power grinding; hand finishing can lead to variations in the final effective ROH.

I was wondering about your ROH, since you said you preferred hard ice!  If Ihad such a deep ROH I would feel more comfortable on harder ice, too.  My ROH is 1/2" and everything works better on softer ice.

[Leif]

As long as the ice is nicely resurfaced, I don't mind. All too often our local rink does dry cuts as the ice is getting so thick that you can't see the hockey markings, and it is horrible to skate on. I find my technique far better on good ice, and it is easier to learn too. I wear hockey skates, 5/8" RoH, not sure if that makes much difference, but I'm sure the figure skaters can't like the crummy ice.

[dlbritton]

As long as the ice is nicely resurfaced, I don't mind. All too often our local rink does dry cuts as the ice is getting so thick that you can't see the hockey markings, and it is horrible to skate on.

Try skating on ice that was cleared of snow using an auger type snow blower. Nice washboard effect.

[Arwen17]

I definitely vote for consistent ice as well. So far I've only skated on one other rink outside of my home rink, so I don't have much experience with hard vs soft. But I think my home rink has harder ice than the other rink I visited. I just know their ice felt "too thin" and I didn't like it. My coach said it was softer, but who knows if that's true. I just know it felt "too thin" and made me feel like I might go thru the ice into the floor, even tho logically I knew that was ridiculous. I also felt like I had to put a bit more effort into pushing?? Because it's "soft", there's less to push against?

[lutefisk]

Are we still doing this survey?  I don't see an option to vote for Italian ice.  I'd vote for watermelon favor, or if it's an extra hot day lemon is always refreshing.  The neon-electric blue favor is a little weird though.