The meaning of heel lift on an ice blade

[mnrjpf99]

I was looking on Ebay at skates the other day and saw a pair that had ISE (JSW) Samba dance blades. I had never heard of that brand before, so I googled it and found a bit about them. This is what part of the description said "Traditional freestyle runner thickness, 3/4" heel lift, 7ft. primary rocker radius, parallel sided and edge hardened to 60 RC. Chrome finish." What I am wondering, is what doe it mean by "3/4" heel lift? I measured the distance between the heel plate and the top of the blade, on a standard free skate blade and it was about 1". Does it mean that the distance on the ISE dance blades have a 3/4" distance from the heel plate to blade?

This is a link to that blade. http://www.skate-buys.com/jeisesadafis1.html

[AgnesNitt]

I don't know what the heel lift means, but that's like one huge  toepick for dance.

Also, note that's the only ISE blade that doesn't have a technical data image on the webpage.

[icedancer]

Yeah, that is one big pick for dance!

I had a friend who had these - I think he called them "Saber Dance" (but whatever - it was the same company, probably the same blade) - I will ask him about it. I think he liked them but they are no longer made.  He is back in MK Dance and I think not liking them as much as the ISE blade.

Not sure what that heel-lift thing is either - you might want to call the company (Jerry's) and ask - or ask through ebay (if the seller knows anything...) -

[mnrjpf99]

Good idea on calling the company. Thanks. :0)

Scratch that idea. It is a non working number. :0/

[Query]

Good idea on calling the company. Thanks. :0)

Scratch that idea. It is a non working number. :0/

Does this website help?

  http://www.jerryskate.com/Products/BladesSkates/blades-skates1.html

I don't think Jerry sells the Samba Dance blade anymore. But the number there,  1-800-263-2496, rings. It is after-hours now, and no one answers.

I'd hesitate to get used to blades I might not be able to replace...

[mnrjpf99]

So I found out what the whole heel lift thing is about. Apparently,it is the distance from the ice to the back of the blade, when the blade is rocked forward, with the toe pick touching the ice. :0)

[icedancer]

Oh that is interesting!  Have not heard that term before.

[Query]

So I found out what the whole heel lift thing is about. Apparently,it is the distance from the ice to the back of the blade, when the blade is rocked forward, with the toe pick touching the ice. :0)

What was your source? There are a number of other possible definitions I might have guessed - like when the blade rests in the center, which might be closer to what "heel lift" means with ordinary shoes. I wonder if everyone who uses the term for skate blades uses it the same way.

[mnrjpf99]

I called the number you gave me and they gave me the info.

[tstop4me]

So I found out what the whole heel lift thing is about. Apparently,it is the distance from the ice to the back of the blade, when the blade is rocked forward, with the toe pick touching the ice. :0)

Hey, thanks for reporting back!

[tstop4me]

What was your source? There are a number of other possible definitions I might have guessed - like when the blade rests in the center, which might be closer to what "heel lift" means with ordinary shoes. I wonder if everyone who uses the term for skate blades uses it the same way.

I did a Google search.  Nothing definitive.  Focussing specifically on "heel lift" as a blade parameter, I got only two marginally useful hits:

https://www.iskateriedell.com/2011/blades-101/

Heel Lift
Knowing where your rake (or toe pick) is in regards to the ice is one of the fundamentals of figure skating (We all remember the scenes from The Cutting Edge!). But did you know that the clearance of the rake is determined by the heel lift? Higher heel lifts provide more clearance between rakes and the ice, while lower heel lifts result in less clearance. When determining the ideal heel lift, keep in mind that lift measurements are in ranges and vary slightly from blade to blade.

<<Coming from Riedell, I would expect something more definitive, but their usage appears to be consistent with Jerry's.>>

http://www.vesc.ca/blades.htm
When the blade is ground down a long way after many sharpenings, the relationship between the bottom pick and the blade edge should be maintained by removal of steel from the pick. There should be about 1/2'' lift at the heel before the pick makes contact with the ice. Just because your blades are ground down past the line of chrome plating, that is not an indication that you need new ones. There is still lots of life left as long as the sharpener replaces that "line" and adjusts the pick height.


<<Again, no solid definition, but their usage also appears to be consistent with Jerry's.>>

[Query]

AFAICT, the Riedell statement isn't consistant with anything. The clearance of the toe pick (presumably when you are skating in your most common position?) from the ice is not uniquely determined by the height of the tail over the ice - that relationship would depend on the shape of the blade.

What is obvious is that the clearance of the pick over the ice when you skate in your most common position - and the ease with which you reach your toe pick - is affected by the front/back shim when you mount the blade. I.E., that you can dramatically affect how far the pick is from the ice most of the time, by playing with shim. This was made very clear to me when I moved a pair of blades from one pair of boots to another, and it became very hard to keep the toe pick off the ice, until I shimmed the mount. (Which means that forward/backward shim can dramatically affect the way a given pair of blades feels and performs.)

But Riedell didn't say it that way.

[tstop4me]

Here's an informative tutorial video from Paramount.  The discussion is a bit sloppy with terminology, and they also don't define their variables, but it's clear what they're talking about.  Not sure about their conclusions concerning Jackson blades, however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_yaW3SGx3s

[Query]

Given that Jackson Ultima blades are now among the most popular figure skating blades, the video (and Broadbent's Wellness Gauge) can't be completely "right", in judging Jackson blade shapes bad, at least according to some figure skaters.

In particular, the video assume the distance the tail hangs in the air when the toe pick touches matters. It doesn't.

On Jackson blades, there is typically less distance to rock forwards to the toe pick, because the toe pick is (I think) closer to the front of the foot. However, the spin rocker profile is also more curved (shorter spin rocker radius), so the part of your foot that is closest to the ice, and the alignment of your toe, can still be good.

What changes is the amount of foot motion required to roll from the sweet spot to your toe pick. Maybe what distance you want may depend more on your experience than anything else?

As someone who switched from MK (Dance) (and earlier, Wilson Coronation Ace) to Jackson (Dance, Synchro, and Supreme), I would certainly agree it is a huge change. You have to learn to move less, and to control movement more. Whether or not that is good or bad is a matter of opinion. Not surprisingly, as with many types of sport equipment, there is a lot of disagreement.

Given a choice, I would have stayed with MK Dance, which I loved. But cost directed me otherwise (and I like gadgets - the Matrix I blades, with interchangeable relatively cheap runners, appealed to me), and I've sort of gotten used to the Jackson shape, though I hated it for a couple years.

I think that when someone says that one type of very common figure skating blade is much, much better than another type of common figure skating blade, you need to take into account what that person is used to, as well as what other influential people (e.g., coaches, skate techs) that they know say, and recognize that their statement can't always seem true to everyone. For professionals, in which category I place both blade-maker reps like the Jackson rep who made the video, and high level skaters and coaches who get free blades and/or are sponsored by the blade-makers, money would be a factor too. In this case, Paramount chose to imitate the MK and Wilson blade shapes more than the Jackson Ultima blade shapes - so it is not surprising that their video rep would dis the Jackson blade shapes.

But we've travelled far from the Samba Dance blade / heel lift question...

[mnrjpf99]

Another big factor, is if you use a "standard boot", such as Jackson or Riedell and such or Edea boots. With Edea boots, as many of you know, there is more height difference between the heel and ball location of the boot, which changes the skaters center of balance, more forward, to shorten the distance to the spin rocker, making it "more responsive". I would imagine, that some blade with a more shallow spin rocker, would be a nightmare with Edea's and take a lot f getting used to, on top of just adjusting to the boot in itself.

[Query]

That is what Edea says, but looking only at the intereor footbed of the boot, the shape differences Edea claims to exist aren't really there. In particular, my Klingbeil (12 or 13 year old) and Graf boots have about the same shape at the footbed. Perhaps the difference Edea claims exists with some other brands, or existed when compared to 20 or 30 year old boots?

The reality is, most big name brands of boot can be ordered with a variety of heel heights, and a variety of footbed shapes, especially if you go custom. You really can't generalize that well.