Underbooted?

[Heewonee1103]

I got new boots about 3 weeks ago after returning to skating. I initially had problems with my left foot because my left foot was smaller. I posted it here and using a footbed and etc seems to help somewhat.. Now I don't know if I'm underbooted. I got Jackson competitors because the fitter insisted that I don't need higer level boots at this point and she said I will be way over booted if I go for anything higher. Now like I said I returned to ice recently so people think that I'm pretty much a begginer when I explain what level I am. My coach thought the same until she saw me skate. She thought I was a way lower level skater than what I was and maybe the fitter thought the same when I just "told" her what I do. After fixing the size issue, the boot still feels like not enough support. Even though I'm doing single jumps now, I do it at pretty high speed and whenever I do I feel like I don't have enough support on the ankles like I'm afraid that I'm gonna roll my ankle and my foot gets pretty shaky when I land so I have to put a lot of tension on my ankle area. I never felt like I had to break in the boots at all like at all. Only time I felt pretty secure was when I skated with that for the first time and after that one session, it just doesn't feel like it's secure anymore. Did I break down the boots after one session cuz I was underbooted or what? Oh not to mention I still have to relace the boots a lot while skating even after fixing the size issue. I'm also 5'8" 130lbs. I'm on the taller side as a female skater. Oh and I'm learning pretty fast since I was a skater as a kid and a teenager. I will be working on double jumps soon.. Eeeekk the boot frustration is real!  I feel like the fitter gave me what they had in stock so I can leave with boots the same day since I drove 3 hours there (she probably thought it would work on me too but..) Those were the only boots that they had in stock in my size. what do you guys think? Am I really underbooted or there's a different problem? Any skater sort of my level and weight and height, what boots do you wear?

[tstop4me]

I have a feeling you are underbooted (if not now, then soon).  Jackson has slightly different models for men and women.  I'm an adult male, just about the same size and weight as you.  I skate with the Elite Men Suede; it has a support level of 80, and is rated for double jumps.  I'm concentrating on edge work and spins; I only do half jumps for kicks.  The stiffness is fine with me; I've never felt overbooted. 

The comparable women's boots is the Elite 4200 Women; it has a support level of 75, and is rated for double jumps.  The entry model of the Jackson freestyle line used to be the Freestyle model.  But a year or so ago, it got demoted to their recreational line.  The Competitor Boot Women that you got is now the entry model of the women's freestyle line; it has a support level of 55, and is rated for single jumps.  I don't know how the support ratings scale; that is, how much stiffer a 75 is compared to a 55.  But I think an entry-level freestyle boot won't cut it for you.  Note:  Jackson is in the process of rolling out an entirely new line of boots (5000 series).  So, if you like the fit of a Jackson, you might want to check them out, as well as their traditional models (Elite 4200 or 4500 Women).

I used to have the old Riedell Royal boots (used to be their top of the line).  When I started looking at Jacksons, the first skate tech I spoke to recommended that I go with the then bottom-end Freestyle model.  I walked out and found someone who knew better.  You should too.

[Heewonee1103]

I have a feeling you are underbooted (if not now, then soon).  Jackson has slightly different models for men and women.  I'm an adult male, just about the same size and weight as you.  I skate with the Elite Men Suede; it has a support level of 80, and is rated for double jumps.  I'm concentrating on edge work and spins; I only do half jumps for kicks.  The stiffness is fine with me; I've never felt overbooted. 

The comparable women's boots is the Elite 4200 Women; it has a support level of 75, and is rated for double jumps.  The entry model of the Jackson freestyle line used to be the Freestyle model.  But a year or so ago, it got demoted to their recreational line.  The Competitor Boot Women that you got is now the entry model of the women's freestyle line; it has a support level of 55, and is rated for single jumps.  I don't know how the support ratings scale; that is, how much stiffer a 75 is compared to a 55.  But I think an entry-level freestyle boot won't cut it for you.  Note:  Jackson is in the process of rolling out an entirely new line of boots (5000 series).  So, if you like the fit of a Jackson, you might want to check them out, as well as their traditional models (Elite 4200 or 4500 Women).

I used to have the old Riedell Royal boots (used to be their top of the line).  When I started looking at Jacksons, the first skate tech I spoke to recommended that I go with the then bottom-end Freestyle model.  I walked out and found someone who knew better.  You should too.

Yes! I just can't get rid of the feeling that she was trying to sell the stock boots that she couldn't sell.. Even though she's supposed to be a good fitter in the area, I'm a little disappointed.. I still drove 3 hours to see her because there is no good fitter at all where I live and no higher level boots I can try on at the pro shop. When I was having a problem with my left foot she offered that she will take it back if it doesn't work with the footbed and we can order something else but I feel like this is whole other problem I didn't let her know about and even if she is going to take the boots back I don't want to go through all the hassels driving there back and forth and waiting to get new boots etc.. I was all ready to pay big money when I went to go see her but I was pretty surprised when she wanted to put me in Jackson competitors which only costed $360 including the blades... Thanks for replying though I will probably have to look for new boots soon. But lI might have to be all on my own. I will definitely check out the jackson's new line.

[ChristyRN]

I was in Competitors for 12 years, starting at 200+ pounds, working down in weight and up to single jumps. I'm a heavy, clunky skater and the Competitors were fine for me. I didn't break down my first pair in more than eight years (unless you count the heel separating).

It sounds to me more like you have a fit problem, not an under/overbooting situation. The Competitors should be plenty of support for your 130 pounds if they were enough for my 180 pounds of clunky skater self.

Get thee to a *good* fitter, not someone that will sell you what is on the shelf. I love my Jacksons, but until I was properly fitted, I was in the wrong size and didn't know it.

[Heewonee1103]

ChristyRN. Thank you for replying. I have no other fitter to go to but her. She's still 3 hours away. Even if I drive further I won't find anybody unless I fly somewhere... Thanks for replying!

[Loops]

You know, height/weight and skating level are important factors when considering boot stiffness, but there are more factors in the equation, I think especially when one is a returning skater. The first is personal preference. I, for example am almost always somewhat overbooted, simply because I like them stiff. I also break in boots very quickly... I don't know if it's just the way I'm built or if it's a strength thing, but I almost always creases skates within the first couple of hours.  This is another reason I tend to go for skates a grade stiffer than I should on paper.

I'm not going to hazard a guess as to whether or not you're underbooted. Given that you're returning to the sport you probably have already developed some leg strength and preferences that someone newer to the sport may not have.  What I will do is share is a tip I took from SarahSpins that I think is very useful. Next time you're trying on skates stand on both feet and bend your knees as far as possible without lifting your heels. If you can easily get your knees over your toes, you might be happier with a stiffer model. If you can't, at least you'll have a basis for judging whether or not the skates are too stiff or just right. Sometimes you just know....one pair I tried on,  I was afraid I'd crease in the store, another the tongue felt like concrete before us even started lacing up.

Make an appt with your skate lady next time and see if she can get some different models in before you get there. If she's as good as everyone says then she should be able to work with you on this.

I'm skate shop challenged too, so I feel your pain. Does your coach have any insights?

Good luck!!!  And honestly better to make the mistake of under booting than over.... stiffer = more $$....

[tstop4me]

You know, height/weight and skating level are important factors when considering boot stiffness, but there are more factors in the equation, I think especially when one is a returning skater. The first is personal preference. I, for example am almost always somewhat overbooted, simply because I like them stiff. I also break in boots very quickly... I don't know if it's just the way I'm built or if it's a strength thing, but I almost always creases skates within the first couple of hours.  This is another reason I tend to go for skates a grade stiffer than I should on paper.

I'm not going to hazard a guess as to whether or not you're underbooted. Given that you're returning to the sport you probably have already developed some leg strength and preferences that someone newer to the sport may not have.  What I will do is share is a tip I took from SarahSpins that I think is very useful. Next time you're trying on skates stand on both feet and bend your knees as far as possible without lifting your heels. If you can easily get your knees over your toes, you might be happier with a stiffer model. If you can't, at least you'll have a basis for judging whether or not the skates are too stiff or just right. Sometimes you just know....one pair I tried on,  I was afraid I'd crease in the store, another the tongue felt like concrete before us even started lacing up.

Make an appt with your skate lady next time and see if she can get some different models in before you get there. If she's as good as everyone says then she should be able to work with you on this.

I'm skate shop challenged too, so I feel your pain. Does your coach have any insights?

Good luck!!!  And honestly better to make the mistake of under booting than over.... stiffer = more $$....

Overall, a thoughtful analysis that I agree with for the most part.  I'm a bit surprised at your concluding advice, though.  It would be different for a child whose feet are still growing and who may not be able to fully articulate problems with boots.  Similarly, it would be different for a beginner adult who never skated before, and doesn't know yet whether she will even like skating.  But the OP in this instance is an adult woman who previously skated and is soon to be doing double jumps.  In which case, it makes sense to be overbooted as long as the boots are not so stiff that she can't flex her ankles.  Underbooting can lead to injuries (as can a boot that's way too stiff), and can cost more $$, even in the short term.  For example, if a minimally adequate boot costs $200 and a higher-end boot costs $500, you won't save money if you first buy the $200 boot and then chuck them within a year, and then replace them with $500 boots.

Also, it's not just a matter of stiffness.  Higher-end boots often have more design features that lead to a better, more comfortable fit and requiring less break-in.  And some companies (Jackson, in particular) offer higher-end boots with a choice of different stiffness levels:  you don't necessarily need to get a stiffer boot in order to get an overall better boot.  For the OP, I would recommend that she buy the highest-end boot within her budget, and with the highest stiffness she can tolerate.  This will allow her to keep the same pair of boots for a while as she advances her skill level, rather than upgrading multiple times.  Just going by generic guidelines, I could get by with an entry-level freestyle boot (as recommended by one skate tech), but they were much softer and lower-grade than the old Riedells I already had.  I'm really happy with the Elite Men Suede, but didn't think I would benefit by paying an extra $150 for the Elite Supreme.

[Query]

After fixing the size issue, the boot still feels like not enough support.

I assume you mean around the ankles. When you say you don't have enough support, does it feel fully snug there? Or might changing the fit to make it snugger fix the problem? That is something you might change without getting another pair of boots.

Also, did the dealer heat mold the boots?

[Heewonee1103]

I assume you mean around the ankles. When you say you don't have enough support, does it feel fully snug there? Or might changing the fit to make it snugger fix the problem? That is something you might change without getting another pair of boots.

Also, did the dealer heat mold the boots?

Yes the fitter heat molded them and yea I mean the ankle area when I say not enough support. I have to lace the boots pretty tight to feel secure and feel snug but when I do jumps with a high speed  It just feels like I don't have enough support in the ankle area even when it's snug.. I don't really know how to explain it.. I know when I tried the boots on in the store I already creased the ankle area (close to the hooks) and I asked the fitter if that's okay and dhe said it's fine. ??

[Loops]

I know when I tried the boots on in the store I already creased the ankle area (close to the hooks) and I asked the fitter if that's okay and dhe said it's fine. ??

Imo not fine, it should have been warning flares. I had read the initial post as 3 months, not 3 weeks since you got these boots. I'm not sure what you'll be able to do about it, if anything (besides of course forking over for new boots ).  But it seems to me that you should still be in some sort of satisfaction guarantee window. Have you talked to the dealer about it? Misunderstanding about levels are understandable, and I appreciate a tech not wanting to overboot a client...... but creasing the boot straight out of the box?!!!!!

[Heewonee1103]

Imo not fine, it should have been warning flares. I had read the initial post as 3 months, not 3 weeks since you got these boots. I'm not sure what you'll be able to do about it, if anything (besides of course forking over for new boots ).  But it seems to me that you should still be in some sort of satisfaction guarantee window. Have you talked to the dealer about it? Misunderstanding about levels are understandable, and I appreciate a tech not wanting to overboot a client...... but creasing the boot straight out of the box?!!!!!

She mentioned something about somebody ordering them but didn't want them or something but I hope they weren't a returned product..  The boots had some minor scratches on them too but thought they were from skates moving around in the box or from people trying them on.. Idk I'm starting to doubt this fitter. I don't know what happened... Ugh.. I trusted her when she said the creasing is fine and normal........

[beginner skater]

You need to talk to your fitter and explain the situation. Didnt she already say that she would take the boots back over the sizing issue? That seems pretty decent.

It's conventional wisdom now that boots need to be very stiff for advanced skaters, but that wasnt always the case. There is also a theory that stiff skates leads to weak muscles and more injuries.

[Loops]

She mentioned something about somebody ordering them but didn't want them or something but I hope they weren't a returned product..  The boots had some minor scratches on them too but thought they were from skates moving around in the box or from people trying them on.. Idk I'm starting to doubt this fitter. I don't know what happened... Ugh.. I trusted her when she said the creasing is fine and normal........

Call her. Asap.

[tstop4me]

It's conventional wisdom now that boots need to be very stiff for advanced skaters, but that wasnt always the case. There is also a theory that stiff skates leads to weak muscles and more injuries.

Actually, it's the other way around.  Prior to the early 2000's, if you wanted a more advanced boot in terms of design features, you also ended up with a stiffer boot.  I remember one boot in the '80s or 90's that was pulled from the market in less than a year because most skaters couldn't break them in.  Then there were some studies (geared towards high-level competitive skaters) questioning whether overly stiff boots could be harmful.  In 2003, a USFSA committee recommended that boot manufacturers back off from the stiffer is better philosophy.  All of this is a bit iffy, of course, because there are no standardized tests for measuring stiffness.

But you see more manufacturers these days offering at least a few models of advanced boots emphasizing flexibility, along with traditional models.  And as I mentioned above, Jackson at least offers their high-end models in a choice of different stiffness ratings.

[beginner skater]

Actually, it's the other way around.  Prior to the early 2000's, if you wanted a more advanced boot in terms of design features, you also ended up with a stiffer boot. 

But you see more manufacturers these days offering at least a few models of advanced boots emphasizing flexibility, along with traditional models.  And as I mentioned above, Jackson at least offers their high-end models in a choice of different stiffness ratings.

Interesting, I guess it depends what time period is being looked at. Kristi Yamaguchi wrote in the 90s some coaches recommend lighter more flexible boots. 
But looking at the Kinzies Closet guide, the stiffness levels just go up  with the weight and increased skills of the skater

[Query]

I want to make it clear that you are a higher level skater than me. That said, I can't imagine that a boot should crease right of the box.

I sometimes work at a rink, handing out rental skates. Immediate creasing is what happens with rental boots when they are substantially oversized, or the laces aren't tied tight enough. Which tends to destroy the boots in a few minutes to an hour.

Note: There might be 5 to 10 really well known, recognized top notch figure boot technicians (which includes boot fitting, sharpening, etc.) in the whole world, who really know their stuff.

A few of them work privately. Most of those specialize in certain brands.

Some work for a boot manufacturer (some travel to scheduled locations, BTW), including former master custom boot makers, and people trained by them. They are often specifically good at one brand.

For the most part, the rest of the skate technicians aren't very good. Most are absolutely awful. They create a lot of pain and injuries, and destroy a lot of blades that they mount or sharpen, discourage a lot of skaters who could have been better and happier, and so on.

So, if you just go to the pro shop associated with your favorate rink, and are fitted by whoever happens to be on duty, the chances of getting one of the really good ones is microscopically small. If you weren't very careful to pick a good technician, it is nearly certain that your skate technician isn't one of the best, and is probably one of the really bad ones.

That's why a lot of people ask around from the best skaters and coaches at their rink, and nearby rinks, to see where those people go. Don't be discouraged, if it means driving all day to see the good ones. For some people, it means flying out to see one of the really great ones, sometimes out of country.

(That said, I probably don't know anything about your particular skate technician. I'm also not saying anything bad about Jackson skates. The upper level ones with plush linings look very good to me.)

I've talked elsewhere about how to modify or replace your insole, and do other things to and inside your boot, to make the fit more uniformly snug, and some other things. If it isn't snug enough at the ankles, or the boot only touches one part of your ankles, that might solve the problem. But with a boot this new, you should first try going through the fitter, and if that doesn't work (which it argueably hasn't in this case), the boot manufacturer. As soon as possible. Only if they can't make you happy should you consider modifying your boots - and only if you think it is worth the time, money and effort to try.

If you were underbooted, that isn't the boot makers fault. Nonetheless, I suggest you talk to them. Now. At the very least, you may get suggestions about skate technicians with better rates of success.

I'm curious: what blades did they put you in?

Jackson describes their boots at

  http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?category=7YlE13ayhuTPjN/sMIYMxg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

Apparently your boots are at the bottom of the line of women's freestyle boots in terms of support. 

At

  http://www.northerniceanddance.com

your boots are listed at $300 without blades, and $360 with them (what you paid!). That's only $60 for blades - from a discount store. So that says something, both in terms of what that store thinks goes well with those boots, and in terms of the quality of the blades they included with them. That store sells Ultima Protege Blades for $160/pair, and lists them as able to handle double jumps (but not more). Most of the others in that approximate category are more expensive. E.g., MK Professional at $219. Remember, that is a discount store. Very few pro shops are discount stores. AFAIK, none of the pro shops with top notch skate technicians are. In theory you are better off ordering your blades from a top notch boot technician, in case there is a problem, and to get a good mount.

[Heewonee1103]

These are the skates. The left one worse than the right one.

[Query]

I'd say they were shot. You'd have trouble selling those used, with such a crease.

[Heewonee1103]

I want to make it clear that you are a higher level skater than me. That said, I can't imagine that a boot should crease right of the box.

I sometimes work at a rink, handing out rental skates. Immediate creasing is what happens with rental boots when they are substantially oversized, or the laces aren't tied tight enough. Which tends to destroy the boots in a few minutes to an hour.

Note: There might be 5 to 10 really well known, recognized top notch figure boot technicians (which includes boot fitting, sharpening, etc.) in the whole world, who really know their stuff.

A few of them work privately. Most of those specialize in certain brands.

Some work for a boot manufacturer (some travel to scheduled locations, BTW), including former master custom boot makers, and people trained by them. They are often specifically good at one brand.

For the most part, the rest of the skate technicians aren't very good. Most are absolutely awful. They create a lot of pain and injuries, and destroy a lot of blades that they mount or sharpen, discourage a lot of skaters who could have been better and happier, and so on.

So, if you just go to the pro shop associated with your favorate rink, and are fitted by whoever happens to be on duty, the chances of getting one of the really good ones is microscopically small. If you weren't very careful to pick a good technician, it is nearly certain that your skate technician isn't one of the best, and is probably one of the really bad ones.

That's why a lot of people ask around from the best skaters and coaches at their rink, and nearby rinks, to see where those people go. Don't be discouraged, if it means driving all day to see the good ones. For some people, it means flying out to see one of the really great ones, sometimes out of country.

(That said, I probably don't know anything about your particular skate technician. I'm also not saying anything bad about Jackson skates. The upper level ones with plush linings look very good to me.)

I've talked elsewhere about how to modify or replace your insole, and do other things to and inside your boot, to make the fit more uniformly snug, and some other things. If it isn't snug enough at the ankles, or the boot only touches one part of your ankles, that might solve the problem. But with a boot this new, you should first try going through the fitter, and if that doesn't work (which it argueably hasn't in this case), the boot manufacturer. As soon as possible. Only if they can't make you happy should you consider modifying your boots - and only if you think it is worth the time, money and effort to try.

If you were underbooted, that isn't the boot makers fault. Nonetheless, I suggest you talk to them. Now. At the very least, you may get suggestions about skate technicians with better rates of success.

I'm curious: what blades did they put you in?

Jackson describes their boots at

  http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?category=7YlE13ayhuTPjN/sMIYMxg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

Apparently your boots are at the bottom of the line of women's freestyle boots in terms of support. 

At

  http://www.northerniceanddance.com

your boots are listed at $300 without blades, and $360 with them (what you paid!). That's only $60 for blades - from a discount store. So that says something, both in terms of what that store thinks goes well with those boots, and in terms of the quality of the blades they included with them. That store sells Ultima Protege Blades for $160/pair, and lists them as able to handle double jumps (but not more). Most of the others in that approximate category are more expensive. E.g., MK Professional at $219. Remember, that is a discount store. Very few pro shops are discount stores. AFAIK, none of the pro shops with top notch skate technicians are. In theory you are better off ordering your blades from a top notch boot technician, in case there is a problem, and to get a good mount.

I actually called one of the pro shops and the fitter there referred me to her because all the high leveled skaters in the area go to her.
So, from my understanding, she is a reputable fitter in the area. I live where figure skating is not very popular like the whole state.
So even though she might be a good fitter in the area, she's probably not the best one considering there are lots of good ones out there. I'm going to call her on Monday when they are open and see what she can do. I just don't want to waste my time and go through all the hassles with these boots but I want to make
sure I at least get the right pair for my next one. I'll post again how it goes after I talk to her. Thanks very much!

[Loops]

Good luck! Looking forward to your update, and hoping it's positive news.

Fwiw those look like perfect candidates for patch boots. Anyone at your rink coaching figures?

[Heewonee1103]

Good luck! Looking forward to your update, and hoping it's positive news.

Fwiw those look like perfect candidates for patch boots. Anyone at your rink coaching figures?

Thanks very much !  yea we have a few coaches at our rink !

[Query]

So (school) figures boots don't need to provide much ankle support? I would think you need that support to give precise control over edges. Do I have that wrong?

Is there some skating technique that gives good edge control, without bending the boot much?

I've noticed that a lot of boots from the first half of the 20th century, or even into the 1970's, were extremely thin and soft - even glove soft, though some of that may be because the ones I saw had been used a long time. They were mostly also more or less mid-calf-high, like some western boots, much higher than modern figure skates. I've watched a couple people skate in them quite gracefully. But I bought a used pair, but destroyed them in a few hours, by doing my low level of skating, with no jumps (but with fairly deep edges). I don't understand how anyone could skate in them long term.

It would be nice if Heewonee1103 doesn't have to just throw away that $360 mistake.

[Loops]

Back in the figures days, we always used our old broken in and broken down boots for patch.  Even today if you look at Harlicks various lines, they promote their softer boots for patch, as well as beginners, iir. Why soft boots? I'm not exactly sure, tbh, but I would hypothesize that it was to help build strength, as well as being part of tradition (?)....case in point, those old boots....Doing figures repeatedly, and with the necessary precision, builds up ankle, leg, and core strength.

When I was researching boots a couple years ago, I found references to the idea that skaters need stiffer boots today, in part because of the lack of school figures and the resulting relative lack of ankle strength. Of course triples and quads are also a factor in boot stiffness. In those days the triple axle was the most difficult jump, only done by men and not all men.

[Heewonee1103]

Okay.. So.. I called the fitter and let her know all the problems that I was having. She was very much willing to work with me. She wanted to see a couple of pictures of me wearing the skates. After that she said she could tell tthat the skates weren't fitting so right since I've been wearing them for a few weeks. I mentioned that I feel like I needed more support though but she said that the competitors are pretty stiff boots and the problem is more with the fit than the stiffness but she said I'm a taller skater so she can put me in one higher level boot which is the premiers. And I'm also going down one size. She said she will order and I will be able to try them on and get them next week. She said she has higher level boots in stock in my size (I'm not sure which but I'm thinking probably 4200 or 4500) but she wouldn't put me in those because they will be way too stiff. I just think she believes stronly in upgrading boots as the person's skill goes up than buying stiffer boots right away. She's just thinks that overbooting will interfere with improving  skills. Oh btw she will take my currents boots back So I will update when I try them on next week. If really think that the premiers are still not stiff enough (I think I'll know better this time ) then i still have an option to try on the stiffer boots that she has in stock. (Even though I don't think she will put me in them lol )  I hope everything works out ! Oh and I'm getting Mk Professional blades with them. I guess coaches in the area prefer MK Prifessional than Wilson Coronation. Anyways I really appreciated that the fitter was very very much willing to help me  Wish me luck and any opinions are welcome!

[Loops]

  

Awesome. Try both the premieres and the boot above, and see how they feel for you. The premiere might be ok. I tried a pair on when I bought 4 yrs ago. I'm in a similar situation to you....I came back after a 25yr break. I only do dance now and really wanted dance boots, but was trying to decipher those stiffness ratings.  I was also trying to avoid overbooting, because I do like my boots stiff. Its a delicate balance and resulted in some injuries for me in the past..... So unlike a previous poster, if there's a doubt, I'd rather get skates that I might break down in a year (and have good patch skates should the opportunity ever arise), and have to rebuy sooner.

She might be right about fit being the bigger issue, but don't be afraid to override the fitter and go stiffer, if your feet/ankles tell you it's ok. Keep in mind though that you are coming back and there will be more skates in your future.

Is her shop in a rink? My US fitter is, and him watching his clients skate helps him immensely when it comes to decisions like this....

So happy for you. She sounds like a good person to have on your team.