Toe pick scraping/catching and shin pain?

[Andrea.Spencer-Kemler]

First time post so forgive me if I do not articulate well!!

First time adult figure skater, (started 2 months ago) and have been on Jackson Elle's with the pre-mounted Mirage blade since day one. Since that first skate, I have had a difficult time with toe pick scraping on forward and backwards skating/crossovers and cannot spin on foot to save my life. I pronate, (I'm a runner so I knew that beforehand), and after a visit with a reputable fitter, I have since learned that the my skates are half-size too big. Currently I have a Waltz jump, toe loop, a pretty unpredictable half flip and working on a Salchow. Jumping has always been my specialty, but spinning I cannot find that rocker to spin to save my life. I toe pick scrape,  and cannot hold the edge, (which the fitter thinks is my pronation and put me in Jackson Ckmpetitors with inserts and wedging). She also ordered me a Coronation ace blade because she feels that my rocker is too flat, hence the toe pick scraping and the lack of spinning ability. Any thoughts? Could the crazy spinning and scraping simply be a combination of skating in wrong everything? (Rocker, size and lack of bio mechanical support). Thank you!!

[davincisop]

Did you skate as a kid or did you just pick it up for the first time as an adult? And do you have a coach?

[Andrea.Spencer-Kemler]

Hi, Davincishop!! Yes, I do have a coach and she has been very helpful. She wasn't sure about which direction to go so she made the recommendation to see this particular fitter who has a very renowned reputation.

[Andrea.Spencer-Kemler]

And yes, I started skating, (as in, put on my first pair of skates ever!!), as an adult two months ago!! Hence, the general naïveté!! ☺️

[aussieskater]

In two months - starting as an adult - you have fwd and back crossovers, waltz, toe loop, half flip (yes I know you said it's unreliable), and you're working on a salchow?

In two months??  And you never put skates on before???

Respect!!      

In answer to your question - given your lack of experience with fitting boots, I'd be trusting the fitter your coach has recommended.  I thought that the Elles would have been the correct stiffness for your level, and that Competitors would be too stiff, but your rate of progress indicates that you're more likely to break down softer boots more quickly, so the Competitor is probably a good call.  Cor Ace blades are a very well regarded intro freestyle blade, and should take you into doubles, as for that matter should the Competitors (although that will obviously depend on progress, ice time, and your weight among other things).  The Mirage has an 8' general rocker, compared to the Cor Ace 7', so the Cor Ace will in theory be "rounder". 

Re the pronation - if the blade setting and shimming hasn't helped, you might have to look into orthotics in your boots to correct the pronation.  However, given that you haven't been skating very long, you might benefit from regular basic edge drills from your coach if she hasn't already given these to you, which will help your body to strengthen the muscles needed to hold all 8 edges.  You'll really notice how much strength and control you need when you start to learn turns.

[twinskaters]

Wow, that is amazing progress for two months! Or two years!

That said, I would be more likely to attribute your scratchy/troublesome spin to it being a developing skill rather than a problem with your blades. I would figure that with more practice, you'll find the sweet spot on any blade, considering how much you've already achieved in skating!

[Loops]

I agree with the others that it's a learning curve thing, and with patience it will come.  Spinning is harder than most people appreciate, and getting a centered spin is a bow-worthy achievement.  I think you'll like the new blades.  CorAce (and the MK equivalent, the Professional) have been the industry standard for beginning serious skaters for ages.  I think the Mark IV is a good blade too, don't get me wrong, but you're going a step up.

I suspect you'll find that having boots that are the correct legnth will also help with finding the sweet spot. Having skates that fit more snugly will also help you to control them better.

Also, a scratch spin is called "scratch" because the drag pick (that very first, and uber-important tooth just after the blade) is in contact with the ice. I suspect you're catching more than just that though.

And congratulations on having progressed so much in such a short time!  Sounds like you're really enjoying yourself, too.

[nicklaszlo]

Also, a scratch spin is called "scratch" because the drag pick (that very first, and uber-important tooth just after the blade) is in contact with the ice.

In theory it is not but in practice it usually is.

[nicklaszlo]

(started 2 months ago)

Your post is a pretty good collection of common beginner problems.  Most of your problems need to be addressed by more practice.  The one thing that stood out was you mentioned shin pain, but did not elaborate.  This could be serious and you should do something about it. 

[Andrea.Spencer-Kemler]

Thanks, everyone!! Definitely more practice is in order, which is more than welcome because I really enjoy skating! The shin pain I described usually occurs during my initial 15-20 mins on the ice, usually forward stroking to keep my toe picks from pitching me head over heels. (As in, a conscientious effort to keep the picks pulled up and off the ice, if that helps). As my session wears on, it usually dissipates. The fitter indicated that more than likely what is happening is that when I lace into my boots, I do the requisite "kick back" into the heel but since my current boot is too big, the front is almost floppy and difficult to control. As the lacing loosens a bit, my foot can move forward and I gain control of the front but my heels slip wildly. Hence, the need for a smaller boot. And because my feet are moving around, I have a difficult time finding that spot to spin. (Had a conversation with the fitter last night because she called to say that my boots and blades were in and she was getting ready to do the temp mount).

[icedancer]

I have been skating for a long, long time and experience shin pain even in well-fitting boots.

For me it is not so serious - it is just a matter of stretching out my achilles once I am on the ice.  This has taken care of it almost immediately for years (and years and years).

Welcome to skating!  You will find that it is a life-long pursuit and certainly not something you will "get" right away - there is always more to learn!

[Query]

Since the Mirage was more of a beginner blade than the Coronation Ace, it may well be harder to avoid the toe pick on the new blades...

I will send you my link on making the inside of your boots fit you, using tape, foam, and/or modified insoles.

However, if your boots are too long, or your toes too short, it is quite possible that your foot isn't able to bend well at the point that the boot tries to bend the toe area upwards. I wonder if that could cause shin pain? To some extent, if there is room enough inside, especially if you remove the old insoles, you can put in your own custom insole that bends your foot where it needs to bend, at the ball of your foot.

It is barely possible that problem could also create a toe pick scrape - because your foot doesn't bend enough, the front of the skate MIGHT be forced down. Same solution.

It is also possible that you need to change your foot orientation, pulling the front of the foot back, or that you or leaning forwards as you skate. Most beginning figure skaters are better off more upright, with a bit more weight on the back of the foot than the front while skating forwards. Because of that EVIL toe pick, leaning forwards doesn't work very well in figure skates. But a good coach would be able to figure those things out.

Such fast progress! I'm so jealous! Do you have experience in dance or gymnastics?

[Andrea.Spencer-Kemler]

An update!!

Received my new skates yesterday and tried them out today!! Talk about the Cadillac experience!! Night and day difference, even with the break in factor!! No pick scraping, crossovers are quiet and my nightmare of a spin is becoming more and more like a spin and less of a car wreck!! Even without the orthotics that need to go in, (should be getting those Monday), there is such an improvement!! And my coach and the fitter both are confident that the inserts and wedges should correct even more!! Thank you so much for all your help!! Now, practicing is even more fun because I actually feel like I'm GETTING somewhere and not just stuck in a sort of spin and skate purgatory!! 

[Ethereal Ice]

An update!!

Received my new skates yesterday and tried them out today!! Talk about the Cadillac experience!! Night and day difference, even with the break in factor!! No pick scraping, crossovers are quiet and my nightmare of a spin is becoming more and more like a spin and less of a car wreck!! Even without the orthotics that need to go in, (should be getting those Monday), there is such an improvement!! And my coach and the fitter both are confident that the inserts and wedges should correct even more!! Thank you so much for all your help!! Now, practicing is even more fun because I actually feel like I'm GETTING somewhere and not just stuck in a sort of spin and skate purgatory!! 

Yes, you were really stuck there, learning all those elements in two months!  Glad to hear your new skates made such a difference. I started with some that were like you describe your first ones to be, a bit long. My new Riedell's are very snug and feel like an extension of my foot. I also have been skating about two months. That is where our similarity ends, I am nowhere near what you can do and I did skate briefly as a child! When I changed to my new skates, far from feeling they solved my problems, I  felt like I had taken a few steps back for a couple of weeks while I got used to them and broke them in. Now I love them,  but my progress is nothing like yours.  Jealous!