An ineffective coach or no coach at all?

[sampaguita]

I once had a coach with whom I worked really, really well. I learn the logical way, step-by-step, which is what my other coaches were not able to address. You can't tell me to do progressives just by "crossing the feet together" -- this is what I've struggled with for a looooong time until my favorite coach taught me how to do it right. He taught me in 2 days what I've asked others to do for months.

Aside from that, one of my pet peeves is the attitude that "there is no other way but my way". I've met some coaches like that, and it really turned me off -- especially if they had no reason other than that's the style they grew up with. (For example, I had one coach who insisted that a bent free leg before a waltz jump is wrong -- outdated, I believe?). What is worse is that with the coaches I've met like that, no one really had the technical prowess to gain my admiration...

Ever since I met my favorite coach (who has since left the rink), I've been more picky with coaches whom I want to train under. The ones whom I might work well with are usually booked during my free time.

So I guess...I just want to ask you guys. Would you hire a coach whom you know you wouldn't work well with?

[Matsumoto]

That is an interesting question.  My thought is that you can try to work with a coach that you think you may clash with.  If it turns out that it isn't working, you can always part ways and there is a chance that you may also learn something new along the way.

I guess that's a wordy way of saying "nothing ventured, nothing gained."   

[Feebee]

This is such a great question. I'm curious to hear what others say, but here's my experience:

I had a wonderful coach when I was starting out, but she left town soon after and I struggled to find a good coach after that. I found someone who initially seemed good, but over time I found that my skills had stalled and she wasn't very effective at pushing them forward. I was stuck on things like 3-turns, I wanted to improve my crossovers, and none of those things were happening. I started feeling like I was just paying someone to watch me practice, especially the last few lessons when she started coaching from the boards. After that, I chose to part ways. I don't regret it, but I will say that not having a coach (I'm down to just weekly LTS) I am finding it harder and harder to motivate myself to practice. On the other hand, I wasn't learning much with her either. So it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

My advice to you would be to try out different coaches. Ask other adult skaters for recommendations, and make it clear to the coaches you try that it's on a trial basis.

The good thing is you already know what works for you, but don't get too hung up on trying to find someone like your old coach. You may need to compromise on some things, but as long as you find someone who's coaching style is effective (and it may be different than your old coach), it's worth it IMHO.

[Query]

What is worse is that with the coaches I've met like that, no one really had the technical prowess to gain my admiration...

You have remarkably high standards, for someone who just learned progressives!

Almost any coach who can teach to your style of learning can be helpful.

Sometimes people closer to my own athletic level have had the best insights into how I can improve.

[riley876]

I thought I have constantly, is if a coach was skating better than me when they were 4, how can they possibly relate to/remember the common issues with learning a low level skill?

It's probably an unfair thought, but I have it nevertheless.

[icedancer]

I thought I have constantly, is if a coach was skating better than me when they were 4, how can they possibly relate to/remember the common issues with learning a low level skill?

It's probably an unfair thought, but I have it nevertheless.

I don't think that is an unfair thought at all - I think a lot of coaches who skated at a very high level have no idea how to break it down for a beginner at all much less a beginner adult!  (And I am using the term beginner very loosely here - not that I think Sampugita is a beginning skater!) -

I think it is good to have a coach because a good coach will push you to practice - but you have to be careful that they are letting you progress - it is a fine line for sure - you also will have many plateaus and peaks and valleys no matter what level you are at.

[riley876]

I guess there is always their "rubber duck" value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging 

Though some might argue that a "cardboard cutout dog" is more cost effective 

http://www.sjbaker.org/humor/cardboard_dog.html

[AgnesNitt]

People who are natural skaters, who never had to think their way through a problem, don't always make a great coach.

I've had some really good coaches, but I had some physical issues that good coaching couldn't solve because the coach couldn't see what was happening in my hips. It wasn't until I watched some Chris Conte, and Joan Orvis videos on Icoachskating that I was able to get past some subtle issues in my free hip when I skated. After I realized I had one open and one closed hip, that I was finally able to really get to grips with what I needed to do. Nick Perna's videos on icoachskating were good too.

If it wasn't for Joan Orvis' videos I would not be doing waltz jumps.

[Doubletoe]

I agree with the suggestion of taking a few trial lessons with several different coaches, preferably coaches who have experience working with adults.  By letting the coach know up front that these are just trial lessons, you don't get into any sort of perceived obligation and you don't have to "quit" any of the coaches.  I have done this myself and found it to be a great way of finding a new coach and experiencing different coaching styles.

[ChristyRN]

You have remarkably high standards, for someone who just learned progressives!

I've been skating since 2002 and just learned progressives two weeks ago as a dance step in bridge class.  It was not taught in the LTS curriculum I took.

My coach is my age. She seems to have the knack to know when to push me and when to back off. It's an awesome skill for someone teaching me scary skills to have. She knows how to tell me I'm doing something wrong, and knows when I need to hear something positive. The coach before her seemed to only be able to tell me what I was doing wrong. She was a great person, but just not the coach for me. I went a couple of years without a coach (and skated a lot less due to other factors) before I was introduced to my current coach in homeschool LTS (we had a pretty good adult group going mid week).

My answer is: no, I would not hire a coach I can't learn with. The frustration just isn't worth it.

[amy1984]

I have had about half a dozen coaches.  Not one of them would I say wasn't worth it.  Some were better than others though I've been lucky and none of them were 'bad' coaches.  Lots of what you get out of a coach is impacted by what you put in.  I listen to what they say, try it out, and if I like it better than what I've learned previously, I keep it.  I think when you are getting info on certain things, the wording or something might stick better when it comes to one person vs. another, but in essence, they're all teaching you the same thing (aside from some minor technical differences they may prefer, but it's still a waltz jump, or progressives, etc.).

You can work with a coach who isn't your first pick.  Listen to what they have to say.  If something doesn't make sense to you, re-word it in your head a few times to try and sort it out yourself.  Pick and keep pieces of advice that work for you but if you learned it somewhere else first and that worked better for you, you don't have to be married to the new coaches info.  Be open minded, respectful, work hard,  listen, etc.  You are paying good money to be coached and while it might seem like you're getting the most of your money by insisting on having everything your way, it can have the exact opposite effect.

[sampaguita]

So many have been suggesting trial lessons - but what if the trials don't work for, say, all the coaches in your rink? Would you settle for any coach? Or would you rather practice on your own and wait until your preferred coach becomes available?

That may seem absurd, but in places where skating isn't popular, the good coaches are few - and usually fully booked.

[FigureSpins]

I think the OP will be unhappy with any of the available coaches, based on her previous posts.  She really does need a coach who can focus on her needs and her learning style and be the perfect coach or else the OP will be very frustrated and discouraged.  Just mho based on history.

Every coach has something that they excel at teaching.  My first coach taught spins really well but not jumps.  She was into ballet-like artistry which was not natural to me but I tried to emulate her choreography with mixed results.  My second (and favorite) coach "got me" right away - our skating styles and choreography preferences jived and we collaborated well.  She taught jumps so very well - small wonder since she was an Olympian herself.  My spins improved but more importantly, my jumps caught up with my spins. 

I would suggest online video sites in lieu of coaching, but that's one-way communication that doesn't address the skater's real-life errors.  Videos can help, but they can't replace, a coach.  There are some online coaching offers, but they're expensive.  Would your former coach be willing to provide such a service, since s/he seems to be your one and only option?

I think the only option if you want a live coach is to suck it up and settle for one of the available coaches but go  into it with a positive, open attitude.  If you have to, pretend that you're someone else or try to adapt a new learning style.  There's no evidence that everyone learns the same way all the time.  I taught myself to crochet and knit using books, I learned skating from coaches and use videos to do plumbing.  Go into it determined to try a new method and maybe you'll succeed. 

I second the trial lessons though - you wear your heart on your sleeve, so if you're miserable, stop ASAP.  It was painful to read the posts where you were so unhappy and frustrated.

[PinkLaces]

Honestly, I would take the best of the coaches available over none at all. Practicing on your own could lead to bad habits. Bad habits are hard to break. I think you really do need a coach to give you feedback as you can't see your own skating.

I have my coach whom I love, but I also take group lessons. Over the course of 2 years, I've worked with every coach at the rink at least once or twice. They all have different styles, but all had good advice. Some even surprised me with how good they were on the one on one with me versus what I saw them do with the kids. If our communication styles are different or I don't get what they are saying, I ask them to clarify or repeat back what I think they are saying.

Do trial lessons. At least 2-3 with each coach. I don't think you really get a feel for someone after 1 lesson. Go in with an open mind. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[Query]

In all fairness - Some coaches who are high class athletes can teach very well, even to people like me who aren't anything like that.

E.g., I took kayak lessons from a world class competitive kayaker, possibly the best teacher I have had in any subject. He was very disciplined, superbly organized, and very good at analyzing what a student was doing wrong.

OTOH, I've gotten great tips from non-coach skaters who were just a little better than me at something, and were struggling with the same things. Some of the best tips have been at skatingforums.com, from people who have never seen me skate.

I haven't had all that much luck with any of the books and videos on skating I have tried to read or watch - they are poorly organized, and/or they explain the gross motions without talking about the detailed little things that make the bigger things possible. That's a problem for me - I tend to learn best from books, and my approach is very analytical. The best teacher so far for me was someone who understood the analytical approach.

And some things I may never get. E.g., good, well controlled spins, or well controlled rotational jumps.

I've got (ice dance) progressives down pretty well. That's because one of my first instructors (who was an extremely good skater) drilled me on it in a very disciplined way, lesson after lesson. He had a set of standardized drills (similar to Annie's Edges, I think) that he made his students practice forever and ever. He emphasized the basics - posture ("sit"), very deeply bent knees while I was over them, deep edges, and going so low that each leg fully extended straight on the ice at the end of pushing outwards. But I often couldn't understand him (or him, me - he barely spoke English) on many more complicated issues, which was extremely frustrating. He did much better with students who already knew the basics - including elite skaters, and most of the coaches I tried after him.

Incidentally, the idea you mentioned, of learning each skill progressively, building each skill on prior skill's foundation, in an order that makes it easiest to master, is something that PSIA - a ski instruction organization - has down to a tee. I don't know of anything or anyone comparable to that in the skating field. You might love taking ski lessons from a good PSIA instructor. Now that I think of it, those were also important elements of the teaching style of the great kayak instructor I mentioned.

I guess I do best with a strongly disciplined and organized coach, with strong analytic skills, and lots of repetition, including a sequence of drills he/she keeps coming back to, and I can keep working on. (But that is specific to me, not you.)

Many coaches can adapt somewhat. If you understand what teaching style you need, it is extremely important to communicate that to the coach, from the start.

(Also, unlike that first ice dance coach for me, you should pick someone of the opposite gender, so you can dance with them.)

[sampaguita]

I would suggest online video sites in lieu of coaching, but that's one-way communication that doesn't address the skater's real-life errors.  Videos can help, but they can't replace, a coach.  There are some online coaching offers, but they're expensive.  Would your former coach be willing to provide such a service, since s/he seems to be your one and only option?

I still send videos to my former coach, to which he replies with his suggestions. It pales in comparison to him being physically there, of course -- real-time correction is always better.

Perhaps this is a business opportunity...supplemental, long-distance two-way coaching? With technology, it could even be live...

You have remarkably high standards, for someone who just learned progressives!

I don't expect coaches to do double jumps (age is a big factor), but if someone is going to be an authoritarian coach to me, he or she should have the skating skills (edges) to back it up, or at least the passion to learn about new developments in the field.

[amy1984]

I wish I could remember who said this... and I may even be thinking of several high level coaches who have said things like this... I seem to think it might have been Brian Orser but I can't quite remember.  Basically, what he (probably Brian) said was that he liked working with kids (ie: lower level skaters) and had no problems with it if parents wanted to pay for it, but at the same time, he also implied that it was a little silly for someone to pay an Olympian to teach their kid cross cuts.  I really wish I could remember enough for google to have this quote pop up in full, but like I said, I might be taking bits and pieces of it from different people.

I think what I can further extrapolate from that is that at such a low level, most coaches would be sufficient.  Sure, there will be coaches that are better at teaching, and sure, there will be coaches a skater likes better than others, but at the point of learning basic skills like stroking, progressives, crosscuts, even basic single jumps and simple spins, it's not rocket science.

From your posting history, you seem to take skating seriously and you're picky with how you learn things and how perfect your skills are.  And for a coach, it seems like you also have very high standards.  Most of the options available to you, at this level, would work.  It's all about what you bring to the rink at this point.  Perhaps if you put some thought into how you function as a skater, you'll be able to get the most out of any coach you hire to teach you this level of skating.

[icepixie]

Perhaps this is a business opportunity...supplemental, long-distance two-way coaching? With technology, it could even be live...

There's a girl (teenager) at my rink who does this.  Her mother stands on the ice, in skates, at the end with a smartphone camera trained on her sending video, and the girl wears a bluetooth earpiece and talks to the coach as she's doing stuff.  I've seen her doing it a lot for the last several months, so it must work for them.

[sampaguita]

Thanks for all the answers! I was rather curious as to how others would handle such a situation, because it is a real dilemma. It seems most would compromise, but a few wouldn't.

In my case, I've pretty much decided to wait for my preferred coaches (not my favorite coach -- at most, he'll just be visiting) to have an available time slot for a trial lesson. They're not exactly great skaters, but I've seen them teach and I can understand why they're fully booked...but we'll see if I can book a slot.

I figured that if the coach will just tell me to "keep practicing and they'll get better" (which some of my previous coaches have told me), there's probably no point in paying someone to watch me practice. The money would be better spent on more ice time.

I've had recent trial lessons with a visiting high-level coach and a low-level coach. The high-level coach was an excellent skater. Though I learned something from her, she doesn't match my learning style. So bottomline...too expensive. On the other hand, I think I would have a personality clash with the low-level coach, but if I do decide to keep jumping and I get bored just practicing, I'd probably get him if I don't get any of the other coaches.

...but at the point of learning basic skills like stroking, progressives, crosscuts, even basic single jumps and simple spins, it's not rocket science.

I disagree. Good basic skills are essential to any higher-order move. If you're a kid, it's easy to unlearn and relearn stuff, but that's more difficult for adults (or for me -- not sure about the others here), so it's best to learn it right the first time. They're only easy if you expect the bare minimum, but good skating skills are a difficult thing to learn and teach.

[FigureSpins]

If you're a kid, it's easy to unlearn and relearn stuff, but that's more difficult for adults (or for me -- not sure about the others here), so it's best to learn it right the first time. They're only easy if you expect the bare minimum, but good skating skills are a difficult thing to learn and teach.

That's why I don't think you'll be happy with any of the coaches.  I don't mind working at a "good enough" level initially and then refining the skill.  For my students, I'm willing to settle for less-than-perfect up front so they have some progress.  You want to be perfect from the very start, which is a very high bar to jump. 

I have had skaters with that "tell me everything up front!" mentality.  Lessons are bogged down by overanalyzing every nuance.  I also have to manage the off-ice relationship because they will expect me to dictate step-by-step notes (with illustrations!) after the lesson is over.  When I realized I had spent an hour sitting on a bench while the skater wrote notes and I was only paid for the 20-minute lesson, I started to put a limit on how accommodating I would be for this learning style.  With that student (who was far and away the most demanding,) I would set the last 5-10 minutes of the lesson time for notes and I insisted she get a book on skating as well as buy videos/apps so she could draft her initial notes from those sources and I could refine her required knowledge.

I've accommodated students with this "everything up front" obsession.  Frankly, they rarely progress at a good pace with all the notes and analyses because it's really not a productive learning style for this sport.  It's better to take a few uneven bites and then clean up edges than to nibble away a perfect circle in your sandwich and go hungry. 

It seems that the coaches at your rink can't accommodate your learning style.  Some might not even be willing to arrange trial lessons so the original question of "settle or no lesson" might be a moot point.

That's my honest opinion.

[Query]

It's only fair that any time a coach has to spend off-ice on the student or with a parent should be paid for!

Doesn't ICoachSkating.com or MySkateCoach.com accept and comment on videos? If not, I think one of the other sites does. But there are still things a live present coach can catch or guide you through that a distant coach can't.

Figure skating isn't fully standardized. Don't think that you need a world class skater, on the grounds that that means everything will be done the "right" way. There is no single "right" way. The best ice dancers have very distinctive styles (maybe that's expected?), that don't mesh well with the majority of potential ice dance partners - so using them is not a good idea, as I found. (E.g., look carefully at videos of Davis and White, vs videos of Virtue and Moir. Almost everything is different, often opposite, even things like what portion of the blade is on the ice, how they tilt their bodies, body posture and spacing, how they track each other, etc. And, for a while they had the same coaches!)

If you pick an elite coach with a very distinctive style, your chance of finding a partner is even less than is true for most of us. It would be better to find a coach with a more generic local style - e.g., most American ice dancers usually pre-rotate the upper body into the new direction as they switch lobes, whereas some elite ice dancers usually counter-rotate. Again, most ordinary American ice dancers want a good deal of space between the partners, but most elite ice dancers dance extremely close, often with body contact, which implies different movement styles. Besides, as a novice male dancer, it isn't polite to accidentally bump into or trip your partner. So you must change the way you move as you advance.

Also, there is a huge difference between dancing with a partner and dancing alone, in ways you won't expect without experience. If you only practice alone, you WILL have to relearn almost everything when and if you find a partner. At least with a coach as your partner, you won't pick up too many bad habbits, though when and if you find a partner, you will have to compromise on styles regardless. Also, matching the motions of your coach or other partner(s), side by side and while opposite, is not only a big part of learning, it is the dominant part of performing almost any dance form.

Even if your heart is set on the elite coach, you may need to demonstrate to them your dedication by taking lessons with others first. (Ask!)

So I suggest you find a "normal" coach with virtually no distinctive style, rather than the flashiest one there - and that you do find a coach.

[Christy]

If you want to develop skills and learn new stuff it's usually better to have someone who can watch you and see what you're doing right / wrong, and there's not always a large selection of coaches so sometimes you just have to work with what's available. Can you discuss your learning style with a potential coach, explaining how you prefer to learn, then see if you can work together?
I'd also say that a great coach doesn't have to be someone who excels at every skill, but is someone who can explain how to do the skill, spot errors and correct them.

[sampaguita]

Don't think that you need a world class skater, on the grounds that that means everything will be done the "right" way. There is no single "right" way.

I totally agree with this! And this is one of the reasons I disagreed with a former longtime coach. I stayed with him because he was the best available and I wanted to take lessons. At the same time, I wished he was less dogmatic. He firmly believed that there was only one "right" way, for the only reason that that's how he does it. I do as he tells me, but in my head, I really wished he'd take the time to watch videos from ICoachSkating and MySkateCoach, just so he'd see that there are several possible approaches.

I don't require elite coaches either. (If I can get someone cheaper for the same learning curve, why not?) I've had a trial lesson with an elite coach, and she gave more general than specific tips. Her fees were expensive, as expected, but given what I get from the lesson, I couldn't justify the expense.

Can you discuss your learning style with a potential coach, explaining how you prefer to learn, then see if you can work together?
I'd also say that a great coach doesn't have to be someone who excels at every skill, but is someone who can explain how to do the skill, spot errors and correct them.

Thank you! I really hadn't approached the problem from this point of view. It was always me adapting to the coach's teaching style, rather than the coach adapting to my learning style. It's worth a try.

Some might not even be willing to arrange trial lessons so the original question of "settle or no lesson" might be a moot point.

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. As I mentioned earlier, I wanted to know what others would do in such a situation, not necessarily what they think I should do. (I guess I wasn't clear from the start.)

Please understand that the skating culture here is different from that in the US (I know that firsthand, and have had other skaters here tell me the same). Your experience with skating (yes, it's that general) differs from what we have. For one, the tuition depends not on the coach, but on the student's skating level. Coaches here can't set their own fees (unless they're visiting coaches).

[Query]

Please understand that the skating culture here is different from that in the US (I know that firsthand, and have had other skaters here tell me the same). Your experience with skating (yes, it's that general) differs from what we have. For one, the tuition depends not on the coach, but on the student's skating level. Coaches here can't set their own fees (unless they're visiting coaches).

Where are you?

Are you talking about private or group lessons?

Are you in one of the places that everything is taught in group lessons instead of privates?

BTW, if I hire an instructor, I don't want them to imitate another instructor's style. I want their skating and teaching style. As true in skating as it is in dance or any artistic form. But that's me, maybe not you.

[sampaguita]

Are you talking about private or group lessons?

Are you in one of the places that everything is taught in group lessons instead of privates?

I'm talking about private lessons. Group lessons are only available at the very basic levels, and private lessons are the norm. To the coaches' credit, I haven't seen them passing students just so the students can go up a tuition level.

Skating here is mainly recreational, and we have very few coaches nationwide. Everyone's a singles skater -- we don't have pair skaters or ice dancers.