Coaching an element beyond one's own level

[jjane45]

Just curious what happens when skaters grow out of the coach's own skating level. I guess it happens frequently at elite level on specific elements, say not every elite coach landed a triple axel or quad himself or herself.

What happens in other levels? If a coach is tested up to novice, will parents trust a junior or senior skater with him or her or they move on to another coach with more technical credentials? I mean, the best coaches are often not the best competitors / test takers, but do they usually have to be skating at some equivalent or higher levels in the past compared to their students?

Just a question in general, of course there will always be exceptions!

[Sk8tmum]

You don't need to be able do a jump to teach it; many female skaters never land a triple axel or a triple lutz, but, they are certainly coaching at the international level regardless.

Great skaters may not be able to teach technique; people who can teach technique have a unique skill.  Funnily enough, one of the best coaches I know - and widely respected, highly qualified, successful at the top level, etc tcetc etc., never landed a lutz.

You do see parents "chasing" coaches based on qualifications without looking at what they've produced in terms of skaters. Doesn't always end happily.

[blue111moon]

A lot of coaches teach beyond their own test level.  The trick is to be certain that the skill is taught correctly, which generally means that the coach has to do some learning herself - through seminars, or through working with a higher level coach to learn how to TEACH the elements. 

I see this more with MIF than with freestyle.  Coaches who never did figures are having issues with some of the newer and higher-test moves.  The good coaches are basically going back to school themselves.  You may not need to know what doing a triple or a quad feels like to teach it, but I personally think that it helps a whole lot to know how to do a twizzle or a back loop in order to teach it.  You don't need to be able to do it WELL, but how are you going to explain the weight shifts and muscle control if you've never tried it yourself?

I would hope that if a coach found herself totally over her head in terms of teaching skills she's never done, she'd either get help - or pass the skater on to a more knowledgeable coach voluntarily.

[jumpingbeansmom]

One of my dd's coaches is a Russian Ice Dancer.   I have to say, she has brought her along to do all her double jumps and others up to double axel.  She and her partner coach (who was a pairs skater) have coached several kids to junior nationals already even though neither were freestyle competitors.

[techskater]

As long as the coach can explain how to do the element, there should be no problems.  My female coach did up to 2Lz but she has been working with skaters who landed 2A and triples because it's technique, not demonstration.  My male coach, OTOH, landed triple jumps. 

[Sk8Dreams]

Teaching and skating are two very different things.  I teach through Juv MIF and will most likely never pass Preliminary myself.  My students do lots of things I can't do and never will.  I think jumps are the hardest thing to teach without being able to do.  I have videos of demo jumps on my phone, as the bunny hop and side toe hops are the only jumps I will do.  There are definitely some people who cannot learn without being shown, and I am not the right coach for them, but for those who need to understand what they are doing, I am it.  I do think there are some moves that need a demo, such as cross overs, cross strokes, pivots, and mohawks.  Three turns are generally taught on two feet first anyway, so if you know how to teach them, you don't have to do them yourself.  I do turn slightly green when my students surpass me, but it's my job and I love it.

To give an example of the opposite, I recently saw a child fail Juv MIF because his coach, who competed in the Olympics, didn't have a clue how the moves should be done and put the kid out there very prematurely.  I've seen this same coach teach LTS, and now my opinion of that coach as a teacher has been reinforced.  I felt really bad for the kid, who is quite a good skater and could pass easily, given proper instruction and time to get it right.

[ferelu]

I honestly think that all coaches teach above their skating level. For example, a basic element is a spread eagle, some people are not capable of doing them, so if a coach cannot do a spread eagle, then can still teach it to other skaters since they would know how it is supposed to be done since they would have tried it too. Most good coaches in my area actually stopped skating at the Junior level, some have gone to the Junior worlds, but I do not know many senior level coaches (that have been coaching for several years, 20 + years) who competed at the senior level, yet they have skaters competing at the senior level. It is important that the coach continues to get informed about skating skills through seminars and sometimes lessons with other coaches. All those level 4 spins we are seeing, the coaches of the senior skaters have never done those spins however they know enough about biomechanics and through seminars to teach a skater how to do them.

[SillyAdultSkater]

Just curious what happens when skaters grow out of the coach's own skating level. I guess it happens frequently at elite level on specific elements, say not every elite coach landed a triple axel or quad himself or herself.

Mishin has never jumped over doubles I think? yet he's got three (or is it four now?) olympic skaters like Plushenko, who does quads, and a lot of national champions at his seminars and what not. He's written a thesis on the biomechanics of skating though.

So depends on the coach. If they've an eye for errors, if they don't...

[Query]

Some people would say that some of the judges must never have skated... 

[FigureSpins]

I don't know whether or not that's a requirement for the USFSA.  They just have to recognize, not teach or perform, so maybe not.  In the ISI, the coaches are usually the judges, although other professional members can also qualify.

What does the US Figure Skating rulebook say about judges' skating background?

FWIW, Gustave Lussi was a ski jumper, not a skater.  (He did know how to skate, though) 
He coached many elite skaters.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_Lussi

[drskater]

Hmmmm-- the USFS website says that a skating background is helpful but not necessary to be a judge. The also say (paraphrase) "some excellent judges were very poor skaters." 

[techskater]

I would say a good coach is one with a great eye for detail more than anything and who is a good communicator

[Sk8tmum]

Skate Canada requires a skating background for all judges and evaluators.  Plus, training and evaluations to progress up the ladder.

[fsk8r]

Skate Canada requires a skating background for all judges and evaluators.  Plus, training and evaluations to progress up the ladder.

NISA requires a skating background, but that doesn't mean that they've ever landed all their doubles. And equally to become a coach. I know a former judge (she's returned to adult skating) and several adults who've learnt high enough to learn to coach none of whom have skated even at novice level.

[FigureSpins]

I wonder if anyone's ever challenged those skater-to-coach rules with Skate Canada or NISA? 

In the US, they'd have to prove that those requirements were relevant to the job of (as one of our members put it) teaching tots to lick the ice, lol.

That's especially true since there really were no requirements for the longest time.  The USFSA's latest attempts at coaches' registrations and education requirements aren't being well-received.

[Query]

Now you will all get mad at me again. But we all believe that which we believe.

I personally find it hard to believe that a coach can do a very good job of teaching something that said coach has never worked on doing themselves.

A good coach can push things a little bit, simply by getting them better physically conditioned, reading books, attending seminars, and comparing the skater's motions to those of someone better. Showing the kid videos of someone doing the move right, or asking a better skater to demonstrate, helps too.

After all, someone develop the new moves without someone teaching them.

Likewise, a coach can help someone with a little less or a little greater flexibility, if they understand well the issues involved.

But how can a coach figure out what is happening when they have no idea internally what it should feel like to do the move?

Besides, many of us need a coach who can show and tell.

I think a good coach would explain to the student (and parent, where applicable) the potential benefits of moving to a coach with all the right skills. Then the student (and possibly parent) can make their own decisions. Some students feel guilty about leaving their current coach - they need to understand there will be no hard feelings if they make that decision. (If there would be hard feelings, you shouldn't be a coach.)

A good coach always puts the student first.

Likewise - a well trained judge can grade moves that said judge has never done. But that judges's comments won't be as useful to the skater.

[FigureSpins]

As I said before: Gus Lussi wasn't a figure skater.  In your estimation, he had no business coaching, lol.
Am I correct in remembering that you are a low-level skater who doesn't take lessons, Query?


It's truthfully a waste of lesson time to have the coach demonstrate every maneuver at full speed, especially high-level elements that are intricate.  There's too much to see without narration.  That takes repeated demonstrations and runs down the lesson time clock with the skater standing around watching.

Even those coaches that can do, usually don't.  You'll see them walk through the movements explain what is expected and then walk the skater through the element step-by-step.  Far better than saying "watch me!"  The worst coaches are the ones that can't break down the element and explain what each step is, resorting to doing it over and over at full speed.  Even the most visual learners won't benefit from watching; they need feedback and correction  to master the element themselves.  A coach can always have another skater demonstrate it while he/she describes a particular step of the element.  (Like the snap into a backspin position for the double toe loop.)

While I agree that it helps to know what it "feels like" to explain it, there are often more than one ways to describe how something feels and a coach can always learn those from others.  Example: In a camel, I feel like someone's pulling my free foot back when I do it correctly.  Another person said it feels like their whole body is being stretched like an elastic band.  Still another said it feels like she's formed a "T" with her body and skating leg.  So, without ever having done a camel, a well-educated coach can relay that information if s/he understands the biomechanics and the correctness.

Not all coaches want to be primary coach of a competitive skater, some are happy just teaching moves or jumps.  I absolutely agree (and have told my parents/skaters) that changing coaches is their perogative.  They don't because I'm a really good coach that understands and works around their limitations and restrictions, plus I really do care about my students and their families.  They're not just a lesson payment. 

Adding a jump, moves or spin coach to the team resolves your concern about doing what's right for the student.  Those specialty coaches may not be particularly good at being a primary coach for the student in question: just because a recreational skater is ready to work on Axels, doesn't mean they have to change to a competitive coach.  That's not in the skater's best interest if it destroys their confidence and self-esteem.

Another reason why there's a difference between "teaching" and "coaching."

[SillyAdultSkater]

By Query's standards, Mishin has no business having done coaching and giving lessons to the world's top skaters and yet four of his students went to the olympics and three won?


I do agree though that at the very low level it's vital for a coach to be able to show something though. I had a coach who couldn't do a toeloop and it was an absolute nightmare to try to learn jumps from her. For one, you know how you're supposed to kind of kick through on the sal, and swing around on the spin? Well her sal and spin looked identical, guess the consequences for the students.

So maybe it depends on level too, y'know? That you can actually coach quads if you've one done doubles, but you can't coach singles if you can't do singles even if once upon a time you could?

[MimiG]

I would suggest that a skating coach needs to have a strong understanding of the skills being taught and of how the body moves and the ability to communicate effectively. I don't think it's necessary for a coach to have done the element themselves before, although it certainly helps develop the necessary knowledge base, and I certainly don't think a coach has to still be able to perform an element beyond the basics (stroking, turns, etc...)

If a coach can gain the necessary knowledge through study and observation and has the ability to communicate that knowledge effectively, then I see no reason they can't become a great coach. They might not be the right coach for every skater, but that's true of the elite-skater-turned-coach too.

[phoenix]

I agree that a low level skater really does need a coach who can demonstrate. However, the higher the level of the skater, the less demonstration is needed. And then it becomes a matter of a coach knowing the underlying principles and technique behind the skating.

Of course a coach can teach beyond their own ability, as many others have pointed out. Most of the elite coaches today never did triples, bielman spins, or a lot of the other things that are now done at the senior level.

[Doubletoe]

If coaches could only coach the moves they had done themselves, nobody would be landing quads, or even triples, for that matter.  The most important qualifications for a coach are (1) an understanding of the physics of figure skating, i.e., the relationships between edges, lean, angular momentum, open vs. closed body positions, etc., and (2) the ability to communicate that information to the skater in such a way that the skater is able to implement those techniques and make the necessary corrections.
My coach never landed anything beyond a double axel,  but he has successfully taught the triple axel and even the quad toeloop because he understands the physics and is able to communicate the mechanics to the skater.  Frank Carroll never got beyond Junior level at U.S. Nationals, and that was in 1960, so he has probably never landed a triple jump either.

[Sierra]

So maybe it depends on level too, y'know? That you can actually coach quads if you've one done doubles, but you can't coach singles if you can't do singles even if once upon a time you could?

My coach does not demonstrate singles. She used to do waltz jumps, toe loops and a very tiny salchow, but now she does not jump at all (badly injured herself a couple months ago.) I'd say I learned flip and loop pretty easily.

She has good walkthroughs of all the jumps, simply replacing the actual jump with a backspin. If she feels the need to she has one of her students come over and demonstrate.

She could certainly demonstrate singles and even doubles- she's very young. But she doesn't. -shrug-

[drskater]

I very much appreciate that my coach can demonstrate figures (all the way to Eighth) and I find it helpful that she shows me (and her other students) all the MITF, footwork patterns, dance patterns and etc. However, it's her ability to explain something 55 different ways, her ability to make astute corrections, and her amazing insight into skating techniques that makes her a fabulous coach.

In sum, it is important that she demonstrate certain elements but it isn't vital to her teaching effectiveness.

[Query]

Am I correct in remembering that you are a low-level skater who doesn't take lessons, Query?

Yes. I can't afford it right now, and the coach I like best teaches a few hours away, which adds to the cost. I would like to take lessons again. Upon occasion, I sign up for group lessons (e.g., ice dance clinics).

I did take lessons, groups and privates, for about 10 years, from several coaches. I never took more than one lesson from someone who couldn't show as well as tell, and eventually dropped a coach who could show very well but was frustrating for me because he didn't describe things very well (maybe because English was his second language?). At peak, when I had two coaches, I practiced 20 hours/week, before and after work.

My not being a great skater has nothing to do with my former coaches, one of whom has produced Olympic competitors. I didn't start anything serious athletically until I was about 30, and started skating when I was almost 40. It is hard to become a good athlete in middle age, especially if you have flexibility limits.

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Mishin and Lussi both had a basis for coaching:

Mishin was a Soviet National Champion pairs skater and won a World Silver medal - see

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Mishin

Lussi may not have competed, but had been a very good athlete and took figure skating lessons from a top professional with the specific goal of becoming a world class coach - see what someone else just quoted

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Lussi

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When I volunteered to help at a local rink, I came to realize that most of the kids were largely unable to connect words with actions. Below the middle teens or so, they were pretty much monkey-see monkey-do learners. I honestly don't see how a non-skating coach could teach them anything.

On the other hand, some of the best teachers of beginners I have seen weren't even as good skaters as me, but were school teachers. Clearly teaching is a skill which is not completely correlated with athletic ability. But they were teaching within their own ability levels.

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But let me ask you folks a question: All other things being equal, given a choice between a coach who can show and tell, and a coach who can do only one, who would you choose for yourself?

[techskater]

Which one has a better attention to detail?  You can show and explain what I should do all day long but until they can explain in detail what is incorrect and how to fix it, I will only be frustrated.  Both of my coaches are articulate and can pick out what is wrong with the element that is making it poor/unstable and understand the physics and biomechanics of skating to be able to tell me the correction.  One has the added bonus in that he can typically show me the mistake and correction as well