Training for the Olympics?

[twokidsskatemom]

The difference, though, is little Johnny's family isn't going to split up so he and mom go live in FL to play Pop Warner football because that's where the best athletes are.  Little Johnny is going to play football in whatever town his family lives in.  He may show some affinity for football and his parents may decide to enroll him in the Catholic HS in the area because they have a better football program and he would be in a better position to get a D1 scholarship playing there than at the HS three block from home.  Little Susie in this case, who has struggled with Prejuvenile MIF, has a family that is going to go through some separation pain and strain and a lot of expense so she can go train with a coach who says she's going to the Olympics. 

I am all for parents supporting their kids dreams and I am grateful every day for what my parents did for me while I was growing up to enable me to become involved in skating, dance, softball, etc. but I think parents need to use some common sense and temper their "excitment" in approaching supporting dreams.   Supporting two households is very stressful.  Many families look for the best possible coach in their own area for their skater to progress and don't move to an Olympic-type coach until the child can take care of him/herself on their own.  Mirai Nagasu is lucky because her family already lived near Frank C's training center.  Evan Lysacek didn't go work with Frank until he graduated from HS.  Kimmie Miessner didn't go to FL until she was done with HS. 

I agree with you, but there are always going to be parents that go off the deep end and think their skater is the best.They dont care if it rips the famiy apart.I know of a family that sent their 10 year old to Japan for a year, she came back and hates it now.They thought this would help her get to JR nats, like that is the end all  be all of skating.
I just looked at the juv results of Mid Atlantics, as its a big comp.The scores were all over the place.Someone had a 48, I am sure she will get to Jr nats this year. Someof them had half that number, and I am sure some of those parents are over the top as well.I have seen prelim and pre juv skaters with higher points.
I have heard of tennis kids moving for better coaching, and I know hockey boys here stay with families in other places . But I think those kids are much older than 11!
Have to feel sorry for the kids, alot of stress!

[jumpingbeansmom]

II just looked at the juv results of Mid Atlantics, as its a big comp.The scores were all over the place.Someone had a 48, I am sure she will get to Jr nats this year. Someof them had half that number, and I am sure some of those parents are over the top as well.I have seen prelim and pre juv skaters with higher points.

The girls with 48, she is from our rink and I am sure she is going to Jr. Nationals this year...she is really good and works exceptionally hard.  My kid was one of the kids with half the points-  of course, she is new to juvie and the girl with 48 is not-- so you can't really read much into those points right now-- nobody expects a lot of the kids with half the points to do anything right now-- alot were new to juv.  Of course, I don't think my kid is going to the Olympics either-- at this point, she'd be happy to break 30 points -- little goals.   How could you see prelim and pre juv skaters with higher points, how would you know- they don't get points?  

[jumpingbeansmom]

The difference, though, is little Johnny's family isn't going to split up so he and mom go live in FL to play Pop Warner football because that's where the best athletes are.  Little Johnny is going to play football in whatever town his family lives in.  He may show some affinity for football and his parents may decide to enroll him in the Catholic HS in the area because they have a better football program and he would be in a better position to get a D1 scholarship playing there than at the HS three block from home.  Little Susie in this case, who has struggled with Prejuvenile MIF, has a family that is going to go through some separation pain and strain and a lot of expense so she can go train with a coach who says she's going to the Olympics. 

I am all for parents supporting their kids dreams and I am grateful every day for what my parents did for me while I was growing up to enable me to become involved in skating, dance, softball, etc. but I think parents need to use some common sense and temper their "excitment" in approaching supporting dreams.   Supporting two households is very stressful.  Many families look for the best possible coach in their own area for their skater to progress and don't move to an Olympic-type coach until the child can take care of him/herself on their own.  Mirai Nagasu is lucky because her family already lived near Frank C's training center.  Evan Lysacek didn't go work with Frank until he graduated from HS.  Kimmie Miessner didn't go to FL until she was done with HS. 

This is true- not only that, I'd bet the chances of making the NFL is better than the Olympics as a figure skater-- more spots. 

[SillyAdultSkater]

I was recently in an off ice class, any healthy child could have done it, but many of the kids were crying and faking stomach problems. Why? Because their parents didn't teach them any better.

There's a girl at the rink who was much like that back before my injury (and the ballet teacher hated her guts) and now that I've come back she's not gotten better behaved either. Basically, she only does what she likes and will throw tantrums whenever she has to do something she doesn't like. Today she was crying someone got in the way of her spiral sequence and it distracted her. She wasn't even skating to music. Felt like she just wanted to get off the ice and go home and that's why she was throwing the whole scene. She probably was quite tired too, the parents apparently thought it'd be a good idea to have two consecutive trainings for her in the morning, first hockey then figure skating.

On the other hand, I wonder if figure skating really is her thing at all. She's also doing hockey and her parents want her to stop so she can focus on figure skating... The kid's not exactly a girlie girl though. No grace and no feel for art at all, she just wants to run amok and pull crazy stunts all the time, off ice or on it. I wonder what she's like in hockey training, I've not seen her train, but something tells me it's the mom's dream she becomes a figure skater and not the kid's. (Especially given how the mom likes to dress the kid in exactly the same style of clothing she wears...)

[twokidsskatemom]

The girls with 48, she is from our rink and I am sure she is going to Jr. Nationals this year...she is really good and works exceptionally hard.  My kid was one of the kids with half the points-  of course, she is new to juvie and the girl with 48 is not-- so you can't really read much into those points right now-- nobody expects a lot of the kids with half the points to do anything right now-- alot were new to juv.  Of course, I don't think my kid is going to the Olympics either-- at this point, she'd be happy to break 30 points -- little goals.   How could you see prelim and pre juv skaters with higher points, how would you know- they don't get points?  

Go to comps where IJS is used for those levels..our regionals is using IJS for all levels this year.We have been to comps where we have gotten points for two years  at low levels.Jumps are jumps, spins are spins no matter what level.My son is only prelim and is under IJS.It really doesnt matter if you just moved up or not.A girl in my daughters group from last year just moved up and she competed this am with 35 points.A double lutz has the same number of points, a layback has the same number no matter what level your skater is at.If your skater has doubles and level 3 spins, they show up in the numbers. In fact juvs get more points as below is all level 1. They dont rate them above, just on the GOE.
My point is juv has many levels, just look at the scores and see.I am sure some of the parents who had lower scores think their kids  are all that. You cant control someone who thinks their skater is super talented.The results are the results.The numbers speak and they really are helpful in learning what you need to work on.!!

[kssk8fan]

I like the IJS because points are points.   You can pretty much figure out exactly where your skater is exceeding or lacking based on the points for each element as well as the PCS.  Your top skaters are all pretty much similar in point totals.  In our region,  46-48 for juv is consistant among the top juvs.  There may be no magic formula to tell the rising stars from the not so rising stars but I can certainly say that if a juv is consistently scoring 47 in their program, they have a great shot at succeeding at that level.   Once they move up to Intermediate - if they are hitting in the mid 50's for their FS. they are also pretty good. 

So no, there isn't a magic ball that can pick out the skaters that will be successfull, but I'd say that if a skater is hitting those huge numbers, then the kid has talent.

Also, with the IJS, there's not a "reputation" factor as much so kids that move up a level have a same opportunity to hit big numbers as those that have been at that level for a while.  It all boils down to the drive and determination of the skater. 

[fsk8r]

All IJS results are not the same. There's different multipliers used for the PCS score. The TE score is comparable across levels, but the skating skills are not. At the lower levels they adjust the PCS score and so total points scores can be higher in a lower level but they have a less technically difficult program.

IJS is an improvement as it's meant to be less subjective, but where people are doing single jumps and level 1 spins, it's not that helpful.

[Sk8tmum]

IJS is an improvement as it's meant to be less subjective, but where people are doing single jumps and level 1 spins, it's not that helpful.

Interestingly, in the Canadian competitive track, all spins and step sequences are called L1 in our two lowest levels, regardless of where they would be under the strict application of the rules.

I find that CPC is quite useful in the lower levels (we are now using it in test track as well) as it allows the skater, coach and parents to see where strengths and weaknesses lie.  The OBO system doesn't give you an idea of how you are relative to other skaters; it simply means that based on the variety of rankings of the judges, you happened to work out to be 1st, 2nd, etc. Since we've been getting detail reports, I've seen skaters able to identify that their skating skills were above/below standard; that their lutz is/isn't a flutz; that their spins do/do not count; that they are indeed doing a difficult entry and excellent technique; etc.  With OBO, you couldn't tell.

We are also seeing some shifts in placements. With the visible score given to the PCS, it means that skaters with strong skating skills and good interpretation are seeing that aspect being rewarded, and there is less "sole emphasis" on landing jumps at any cost. The kids who were cleaning up with the jumps are now finding that they have to have a more complete package, and it is also lessening the "SHE was in FIRST! But, I LANDED MY DOUBLE LOOP and SHE didn't have any doubles" debates, as the skaters can see exactly why such and such came first.

[Sk8tmum]

So no, there isn't a magic ball that can pick out the skaters that will be successfull, but I'd say that if a skater is hitting those huge numbers, then the kid has talent.

The big numbers early on are great, however, as we all have seen, many of the younger kids meet the "puberty monster" and start to falter.  The tiny ones who were able to pop jumps and bend into amazing spins are now having to cope with different dynamics. Or, the cute little girl who wows the judges with a sparkly routine full of life and bouncy jumps and spins matures into a young lady who can no longer sell cute and who can't simply bounce the jumps off the ice anymore. Mental shifts in performance focus occur as hormones and adolescent pressures come into play. 

I've seen quite a few "tortoise" kids begin to pass the "hares" as ages increase, particularly if they were "tortoise-ing" due to early growth spurts, later entry, or simply learning in a different way than other skaters.

[kssk8fan]

sk8tmum.....I ABSOLUTELY agree with you on this!  growth spurts can be wicked and the hormones that go along with that can wreck havoc on the mental state of the skater.   Selling cute doesn't work for long.   

[jumpingbeansmom]

Go to comps where IJS is used for those levels..our regionals is using IJS for all levels this year.We have been to comps where we have gotten points for two years  at low levels.Jumps are jumps, spins are spins no matter what level.My son is only prelim and is under IJS.It really doesnt matter if you just moved up or not.A girl in my daughters group from last year just moved up and she competed this am with 35 points.A double lutz has the same number of points, a layback has the same number no matter what level your skater is at.If your skater has doubles and level 3 spins, they show up in the numbers. In fact juvs get more points as below is all level 1. They dont rate them above, just on the GOE.
My point is juv has many levels, just look at the scores and see.I am sure some of the parents who had lower scores think their kids  are all that. You cant control someone who thinks their skater is super talented.The results are the results.The numbers speak and they really are helpful in learning what you need to work on.!!

Well yes..that is why we like it, and why we didn't wait until she could make 40 points to move up.  She is learning alot about what she has to work on- I agree.  So I guess it depends when you decide to move up too.  I guess my point was that most of those parents didn't have high expectations yet of the placings and that even the girl who had 48 didn't have that last year when she just moved up and was a year younger or the year before the first couple of times out at Juvie.   If we waited until spring, my dd and some of the others too probably could have gotten 35 points the first time out too.    Of course, I do also think there were a few girls who were getting to an age where it was now or never.   

I have never seen IJS scores in lower than juvenile-  I think it would be a good thing myself.

[jumpingbeansmom]

The big numbers early on are great, however, as we all have seen, many of the younger kids meet the "puberty monster" and start to falter.  The tiny ones who were able to pop jumps and bend into amazing spins are now having to cope with different dynamics. Or, the cute little girl who wows the judges with a sparkly routine full of life and bouncy jumps and spins matures into a young lady who can no longer sell cute and who can't simply bounce the jumps off the ice anymore. Mental shifts in performance focus occur as hormones and adolescent pressures come into play. 

I've seen quite a few "tortoise" kids begin to pass the "hares" as ages increase, particularly if they were "tortoise-ing" due to early growth spurts, later entry, or simply learning in a different way than other skaters.

This is true, my dd is very tall for her age, and she hates it...but in my mind, being as tall as the 11-12 year olds now at not even 10 means she HAS to learn to skate-- she cannot win on cute, she cannot bounce off the ice- as she doesn't LOOK little or young even though she is-- I think in the end it is better for her skating.

[dak_rbb]

Some comps here do IJS at the lower levels. My dd has one coming up this weekend.  It's really nice to get some indication of what the judges did or didn't like and a heads-up on things that should be changed or improved.  This is her first IJS with dbl jumps--it will be interesting to see what happens.

[twokidsskatemom]

All IJS results are not the same. There's different multipliers used for the PCS score. The TE score is comparable across levels, but the skating skills are not. At the lower levels they adjust the PCS score and so total points scores can be higher in a lower level but they have a less technically difficult program.

IJS is an improvement as it's meant to be less subjective, but where people are doing single jumps and level 1 spins, it's not that helpful.

Yes, you are right about the lower PCS score but the tech score is the same. The pre juv my dd skates with run close numbers with juv skaters and basically have the same jumps and spins.The only difference is that juv time forprogram is 15  sec more.5 Jumps is 5 jumps is 5 jumps. 3 spins is the same is both levels.
Here the competive kids dont move to juv till they have a d lutz  double toe..Unless you are going to age out,no need to move up sooner.
Its very helpful for the score, the ones who think they have clean doubles find out they dont.

[twokidsskatemom]

Interestingly, in the Canadian competitive track, all spins and step sequences are called L1 in our two lowest levels, regardless of where they would be under the strict application of the rules.

I find that CPC is quite useful in the lower levels (we are now using it in test track as well) as it allows the skater, coach and parents to see where strengths and weaknesses lie.  The OBO system doesn't give you an idea of how you are relative to other skaters; it simply means that based on the variety of rankings of the judges, you happened to work out to be 1st, 2nd, etc. Since we've been getting detail reports, I've seen skaters able to identify that their skating skills were above/below standard; that their lutz is/isn't a flutz; that their spins do/do not count; that they are indeed doing a difficult entry and excellent technique; etc.  With OBO, you couldn't tell.

We are also seeing some shifts in placements. With the visible score given to the PCS, it means that skaters with strong skating skills and good interpretation are seeing that aspect being rewarded, and there is less "sole emphasis" on landing jumps at any cost. The kids who were cleaning up with the jumps are now finding that they have to have a more complete package, and it is also lessening the "SHE was in FIRST! But, I LANDED MY DOUBLE LOOP and SHE didn't have any doubles" debates, as the skaters can see exactly why such and such came first.

In pre juv and below, its also level 1 here as well. They can be marked up on the  GOE.Its doesnt mean that they really are all level one spins.
Its hard to  take the score and think in 6 months it will be ten points higher.To do that the jumps must be clean, the spins must be held enough.It really does take time for jumpsto  be 100 percent clean.That is why this sport really favors those that take their time, more the hare than the fox!

[isakswings]

The big numbers early on are great, however, as we all have seen, many of the younger kids meet the "puberty monster" and start to falter.  The tiny ones who were able to pop jumps and bend into amazing spins are now having to cope with different dynamics. Or, the cute little girl who wows the judges with a sparkly routine full of life and bouncy jumps and spins matures into a young lady who can no longer sell cute and who can't simply bounce the jumps off the ice anymore. Mental shifts in performance focus occur as hormones and adolescent pressures come into play. 

I've seen quite a few "tortoise" kids begin to pass the "hares" as ages increase, particularly if they were "tortoise-ing" due to early growth spurts, later entry, or simply learning in a different way than other skaters.

Interesting. I think my daughter will be a tortoise. Part of that is the fact that she IS hitting puberty and the fact that we simply cannot afford extra lessons with a bunch of different coaches. There is a former olympian who often works on jumps with many of the kids in our area. I would LOVE to have him work with my daughter, but the fact is, we can't afford regular lessons with him. I could probably find a way to finance 2 lessons a month with him, but I am not sure how beneficial it would be to go every other week. Anyway, my point is, my daughter WILL get there, but her progress will be slower since we cannot afford some of the coaching others can. it isn't a bad thing, it's just reality. We aren't shooting for the stars, just for my daughter's own goals.

[twokidsskatemom]

Interesting. I think my daughter will be a tortoise. Part of that is the fact that she IS hitting puberty and the fact that we simply cannot afford extra lessons with a bunch of different coaches. There is a former olympian who often works on jumps with many of the kids in our area. I would LOVE to have him work with my daughter, but the fact is, we can't afford regular lessons with him. I could probably find a way to finance 2 lessons a month with him, but I am not sure how beneficial it would be to go every other week. Anyway, my point is, my daughter WILL get there, but her progress will be slower since we cannot afford some of the coaching others can. it isn't a bad thing, it's just reality. We aren't shooting for the stars, just for my daughter's own goals.

I think that is a good thing. Not the cant afford lesson part, the whole its not a race part.Everyone doesnt need to be the  8, 9 year old in Juv with doubles. Those really arent for the MOST part, they ones you will see at 15 or 16.
Like I said my daughter skates with a 10 year old that just spent a whole year in japan. Girl jumped jumped jumped for a year. Comes back with back issues,burnt out, cheated jumps.She just competed, they told her jumps were cheated and she didnt hold her spins long enough. Needless to say, she isnt going to regionals, even though she is registered.

[Sierra]

Interesting. I think my daughter will be a tortoise. Part of that is the fact that she IS hitting puberty and the fact that we simply cannot afford extra lessons with a bunch of different coaches. There is a former olympian who often works on jumps with many of the kids in our area. I would LOVE to have him work with my daughter, but the fact is, we can't afford regular lessons with him. I could probably find a way to finance 2 lessons a month with him, but I am not sure how beneficial it would be to go every other week. Anyway, my point is, my daughter WILL get there, but her progress will be slower since we cannot afford some of the coaching others can. it isn't a bad thing, it's just reality. We aren't shooting for the stars, just for my daughter's own goals.

I like your attitude! Remember, that practice is very important too, not just the coaching. The general rule of thumb is to practice twice the amount of lesson time, though the more the better.
I was a 'tortoise' for the first year and a half, and I have remarkably improved in the last five months or so, especially considering that I only skate a few hours a week. I think most tortoises, if they have good skates and sufficient practice time, will eventually become hares, even if only for a few months. It all balances out in the end.

[isakswings]

My daughter competed this weekend. It was her first time in pre-pre. It was quite evident to me that the kids I know who recieve extra coaching, fared much better then my daughter(who psyched herself out in a BIG way!). Didn't help she was landing her axel 50% of the time that day and the day before. She'll get there...it'll just take more time! I've seen her skate a nearly flawless program yet that day... it just was not there.

[isakswings]

I like your attitude! Remember, that practice is very important too, not just the coaching. The general rule of thumb is to practice twice the amount of lesson time, though the more the better.
I was a 'tortoise' for the first year and a half, and I have remarkably improved in the last five months or so, especially considering that I only skate a few hours a week. I think most tortoises, if they have good skates and sufficient practice time, will eventually become hares, even if only for a few months. It all balances out in the end.

I have to be honest, I have my moments...believe me I do. Ask her coach and my husband! They both know how guilty I feel at times that I cannot provide her with more lesson time. I will say tho, she does have a fair amount of ice time. She skates 4-5 days a week and 3 of those days, she skates for 2 hours at a time.

Her biggest issue rigbht now, is confidence. She CAN land an axel and she CAN skate a clean program, but she psyches herself out and then has trouble landing her axels. All in due time.   Our finacial situation is looking up, so I am hoping in a few months time, I can afford to add in a few lessons with the jump coach the other kids have used. Still don't know if I will be able to afford him regularly but maybe even a few lessons will help. Hard to say.

[kssk8fan]

isakswings.....please don't feel guilty about not having enough lessons for your daughter.  Practice time is soooo under-rated IMO.  Your daughter will develop her confidence in those times on the ice without a coach, where it's just the axel and your daughter.  I can only speak from our personal experience but when my daughter is learning a new element it finally appears when there's no pressure.  It's at this time that she can really think about what she's been told, put it all together and try. 

As for being a tortoise or a hare.....slow and steady wins the race!  Or in figure skating, develops technique!

[twokidsskatemom]

My daughter competed this weekend. It was her first time in pre-pre. It was quite evident to me that the kids I know who recieve extra coaching, fared much better then my daughter(who psyched herself out in a BIG way!). Didn't help she was landing her axel 50% of the time that day and the day before. She'll get there...it'll just take more time! I've seen her skate a nearly flawless program yet that day... it just was not there.

I know I have said this before, but it isnt always those that have more lessons that do well. Both my kids last year competed at regionals with kids who have lessons daily. My kids have two lessons a week, unless its something special.The both placed higher than the kids who have daily lessons.My Dd also placed better than kids who had higher level jumps.Its not about the jumps and its really not about who can afford more lessons.It can be about the drive and determination of the skater.
Hope she had fun this weekend!

[isakswings]

I know I have said this before, but it isnt always those that have more lessons that do well. Both my kids last year competed at regionals with kids who have lessons daily. My kids have two lessons a week, unless its something special.The both placed higher than the kids who have daily lessons.My Dd also placed better than kids who had higher level jumps.Its not about the jumps and its really not about who can afford more lessons.It can be about the drive and determination of the skater.
Hope she had fun this weekend!

Thanks! Her coach tells me something similar. She knows my frustration. My daughter's coach is great and honestly, part of the reason my daughter is still skating competitively. Dd usually has 2 lessons a week too. She skates 4-5 days a week. Her drive and determination varies but she seems fairly set on improving and has done so. We are adding in some ice dance lessons but mostly to help her with edges and posture. Those lessons will likely be 15 minute lessons weekly or 30 minute lessons every other week. Dd's primary coach said she thinks 15 minute lessons weekly would be better, so if the dance coach agrees, she will have that added into her weekly routine.

I worry now that she is advancing past the LTS levels. She's still getting her layback down in addition to other spins. Her camel-sit-back sit needs work, so she does a camel-sit-back spin for her combo spin. All in due time. Anyway... thanks.

[isakswings]

isakswings.....please don't feel guilty about not having enough lessons for your daughter.  Practice time is soooo under-rated IMO.  Your daughter will develop her confidence in those times on the ice without a coach, where it's just the axel and your daughter.  I can only speak from our personal experience but when my daughter is learning a new element it finally appears when there's no pressure.  It's at this time that she can really think about what she's been told, put it all together and try. 

As for being a tortoise or a hare.....slow and steady wins the race!  Or in figure skating, develops technique!

Thanks! She currently has 2 lessons a week with her primary coach and then this week, we will be adding in dance lessons. Those will be either one every other week or one 15 minute lesson a week. It's funny because her coach said when dd gets it in her head that she WILL land her axel, she does it. When she is waivering, she doesn't land it. She'll also spin it at times... which is what she did yesterday and likely why she didn't land it in her nearly flawless and beautifully skated, artistic program! Oh well.

Thanks again!

[jumpingbeansmom]

I think that is a good thing. Not the cant afford lesson part, the whole its not a race part.Everyone doesnt need to be the  8, 9 year old in Juv with doubles. Those really arent for the MOST part, they ones you will see at 15 or 16.
Like I said my daughter skates with a 10 year old that just spent a whole year in japan. Girl jumped jumped jumped for a year. Comes back with back issues,burnt out, cheated jumps.She just competed, they told her jumps were cheated and she didnt hold her spins long enough. Needless to say, she isnt going to regionals, even though she is registered.

That is a shame for her.  Why Japan?