IJS scoring question - time violations

[axelwylie]

Just got back from AN and received a time violation on my TES. I thought that skaters had a 1-2 second leeway before they penalized? Also, I noticed that my last spin (a level 2) was called a base level spin. Would that be because I ended the spin a second after the music ended? This was my last element before the ending pose.

Thanks for your expertise! I am still learning the IJS scoring system.

Oh, and my entire music track is 2:40 (which is the max allotted time).

[fsk8r]

I've been timekeeping a couple of times now. My instructions from the referree are to time from the moment of the first movement (any movement)  to the last movement. And I'm to flag when it's over the maximum time. One referee said 2.40.01 would be over, and another gave a 1sec leeway (it still said 2.40 and 2.40.99).
My job is solely to time, record the time on the sheet and tell the referee if anyone is over the time limit (over any error margin they apply). The referee applies the deduction.

So if you've music is at the maximum, then you're going to run the risk of a time violation when you run late unless you stand still for a second or two at the start. And standing still is standing in the start pose. If you move your arms, the stop watch starts.

With regards to the spin, I can't comment as to why it was downgraded, but that wasn't because it was after the music ended. The only penalty is for being beyond the maximum time. They don't ding you twice.

What were you trying to do in the spin? That might given an indication as to what when wrong.

[twokidsskatemom]

Did someone tape your program? Then at least you could see if you didnt hold it enough. The spin and the time are two different items. You will see alot of skaters go over in time to get that level 4 spin in.

[JSM]

Most likely, your level 2 spin got called base value because you didn't hold a position long enough - that's the usual culprit.  I've been there!

     Edit to add: if you don't get into the position within 2 revolutions, that's another reason it could be an automatic B.

For time violations, yes, you do need to be below 2:40 from the start to the end of movement.  It doesn't matter how long your music is (to a point), but how long you skate.

[Query]

I wonder if some CD players play a little bit fast or slow?

E.g., see

  http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_cdfaq8.html

Assuming of course your program was on CD.

I'm not actually sure a non-fancy CD player could run slow or fast without skipping, though it's quite common on DJ-style players to have a variable adjustment speed. For example, the outdoor CD player at the rink I've worked at has such an adjustment. If it wasn't placed precisely in the center, it would run a little slow or fast.

If that is possible, you might need a little leeway...

Also, remember that you could have up to a 1/4 second or so delay between what the judges hear, and what you hear, due to the speed of sound, at some rinks, depending a lot on how the sound system is set up. Apparently, that is rarely true at the rinks they pick to do National and International competitions at (which are typically sporting arenas, with very fancy sound systems), but is fairly common at lesser rinks, so a USFS judge told me.

[fsk8r]

I wonder if some CD players play a little bit fast or slow?

E.g., see

  http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_cdfaq8.html

Assuming of course your program was on CD.

I'm not actually sure a non-fancy CD player could run slow or fast without skipping, though it's quite common on DJ-style players to have a variable adjustment speed. For example, the outdoor CD player at the rink I've worked at has such an adjustment. If it wasn't placed precisely in the center, it would run a little slow or fast.

If that is possible, you might need a little leeway...

Also, remember that you could have up to a 1/4 second or so delay between what the judges hear, and what you hear, due to the speed of sound, at some rinks, depending a lot on how the sound system is set up. Apparently, that is rarely true at the rinks they pick to do National and International competitions at (which are typically sporting arenas, with very fancy sound systems), but is fairly common at lesser rinks, so a USFS judge told me.

Time violations have nothing to do with the music. Timing is done based on what the skater does. So the only delay is human reaction for starting and stopping the stopwatch, but that should cancel out.

[axelwylie]

It is strange - I know I have gotten a "V1" comment on my protocols before which indicate that I didn't hold s variation long enough. I had a difficult entry plus a difficult variation in the spin. Still not sure why it was called base level though. I did not get s V1 or V2 error on it.

[fsk8r]

It is strange - I know I have gotten a "V1" comment on my protocols before which indicate that I didn't hold s variation long enough. I had a difficult entry plus a difficult variation in the spin. Still not sure why it was called base level though. I did not get s V1 or V2 error on it.

Perhaps you didn't hit position? It doesn't take much to miss the camel or sit position requirements.

[PhysicsOnIce]

Something like this happened to me as well very recently. My last spin was suppose to be an 8 revolutions in a pike position and then a change. I did not do the 8 revolutions because I needed the change before I runout of time, which knocked my spin down to a level 1, but my pike position was also not counted which knocked it down to a base.  I talked to our team technical specialist about it.  Anything that gets executed after the 2:40 mark is no longer counted even if the element was started before the 2:40 mark. That means if you entered your spin with a few seconds to go, but your 8th revolution was after the 2:40 mark only the first 7 revolutions would have been counted making it a  base level. I have to ask what kind of spin was it?

Also, you said that you had a difficult entry into a  difficult variation, if you did not reach the required 2 (or 3) revolutions before the 2:40 mark that would have dropped the value to a level 1, and if the judges did not find the difficult entry actually difficult or if you did not achieve the position correctly, this would have made it a base.   Do you have a video of the spin?

Also, the V1 or V2 comments don't necessarily mean you did not hold the variation position long enough. It could also mean that your spin was not centred properly or looked out of control.

[fsk8r]

Also, you said that you had a difficult entry into a  difficult variation, if you did not reach the required 2 (or 3) revolutions before the 2:40 mark that would have dropped the value to a level 1, and if the judges did not find the difficult entry actually difficult or if you did not achieve the position correctly, this would have made it a base.   Do you have a video of the spin?

Interesting what you said about the tech specs not finding the entry difficult enough. I had been working on a spin which was meant to have a difficult variation in an upright as part of the combination (so aiming at a level 1). A friend executed the same spin in competition and came away with a Base. So apparently what we and the coaches thought was a difficult variation isn't difficult enough. It's just a simple variation and useful when executing a 3 position spin, but otherwise not getting many points at all, as this season a 2 position combination spin with no features is worth the same points as a plain upright spin.

[twokidsskatemom]

Something like this happened to me as well very recently. My last spin was suppose to be an 8 revolutions in a pike position and then a change. I did not do the 8 revolutions because I needed the change before I runout of time, which knocked my spin down to a level 1, but my pike position was also not counted which knocked it down to a base.  I talked to our team technical specialist about it.  Anything that gets executed after the 2:40 mark is no longer counted even if the element was started before the 2:40 mark. That means if you entered your spin with a few seconds to go, but your 8th revolution was after the 2:40 mark only the first 7 revolutions would have been counted making it a  base level. I have to ask what kind of spin was it?

Also, you said that you had a difficult entry into a  difficult variation, if you did not reach the required 2 (or 3) revolutions before the 2:40 mark that would have dropped the value to a level 1, and if the judges did not find the difficult entry actually difficult or if you did not achieve the position correctly, this would have made it a base.   Do you have a video of the spin?

Also, the V1 or V2 comments don't necessarily mean you did not hold the variation position long enough. It could also mean that your spin was not centred properly or looked out of control.

Are you in the Us? Unless there has been a rule change, my impression is you recieved full credit for your spin if you finished it even after the time. I saw alot of novice girls last season get full credit for spin and take the 1.0 deduction for time.

[fsk8r]

Are you in the Us? Unless there has been a rule change, my impression is you recieved full credit for your spin if you finished it even after the time. I saw alot of novice girls last season get full credit for spin and take the 1.0 deduction for time.

It shouldn't matter. IJS is IJS. Everyone should be applying the rules the same way. Unless they've changed the rules betweeen last season and this (I've not read the fine details just the general what gets extra levels).

[PhysicsOnIce]

Are you in the Us? Unless there has been a rule change, my impression is you recieved full credit for your spin if you finished it even after the time. I saw alot of novice girls last season get full credit for spin and take the 1.0 deduction for time.

No, I am not in the U.S., but we skate IJS in Belgium. 
Rule 502, paragraph  4
" If the Skater/Pair/Couple  fails  to  finish  his/their  Short  Dance,  Free  Skating  or  Free Dance program within the allowed range of time, there should be a  deduction (see Rule 353, paragraph 1.n ) for up to every  five  (5) seconds lacking or in excess. Any element in Short Dance, Free Skating or Free Dance started after the required  time (plus the ten (10) seconds allowed) must not be identified by the Technical
Panel and will have  no value. " http://static.isu.org/media/166717/2014-special-regulation-sandp-and-ice-dance-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_14-09-16.pdf

The way our team technical specialist reads this is that after the 2:30+10 whatever you do is no longer counted.

Interesting what you said about the tech specs not finding the entry difficult enough. I had been working on a spin which was meant to have a difficult variation in an upright as part of the combination (so aiming at a level 1). A friend executed the same spin in competition and came away with a Base. So apparently what we and the coaches thought was a difficult variation isn't difficult enough. It's just a simple variation and useful when executing a 3 position spin, but otherwise not getting many points at all, as this season a 2 position combination spin with no features is worth the same points as a plain upright spin.

Yeah, the technical panel covered their bums on that.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2014-15%20Tech%20Panel%20Handbook%20Singles%20updated%209-25-14.pdf
"Entrance into a spin"
is defined as the preparation immediately preceding a spin and may include the beginning phase of a spin.  The entrance must have a significant impact on the balance, control and execution of the spin. The
intended spin position must be reached without hesitation or delay and must be held for 2 revolutions.
This position can be basic or (for spin  combinations only) non -basic. A regular backward
entry is no longer considered as a difficult entry.If the entrance of a spin is not considered by the Technical Panel as  "difficult",  it is considered as a transition and the "difficult entrance" feature  can still be awarded in a later spin."

Not that it really matters, but in Belgium Rolling threes are not being considered a "difficult" entrance.

[Doubletoe]

It is strange - I know I have gotten a "V1" comment on my protocols before which indicate that I didn't hold s variation long enough. I had a difficult entry plus a difficult variation in the spin. Still not sure why it was called base level though. I did not get s V1 or V2 error on it.

What was the difficult entry and what were the position and difficult variation?

[axelwylie]

My spin is a sit spin with an illusion entrance (difficult entry) with a back tuck position (variation). I actually had this exact spin called as a Level 3 at Sectionals a month ago. I moved the spin to the end of my program and it was called a base level spin. I will see if I can link my video so you can see.

Thanks for everyone's responses so far - it has been really educational!

[axelwylie]

Ok - I hope this works! The spin in question is at the very end.

Mods - should this be moved to the Video & Test Results board?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOLPCjQYjNc

[Query]

Time violations have nothing to do with the music. Timing is done based on what the skater does. So the only delay is human reaction for starting and stopping the stopwatch, but that should cancel out.

But skaters usually time their programs according to the music. The time delay varies with your position on the rink. So, for the simplest case, in which the rink has one speaker, if you start your program close to that speaker, and end your program far from the speaker, it will lengthen your program. Likewise, if the CD player plays slow or fast, that will slow you down or speed you up.

In a somewhat similar case, I heard one parent (who is also a judge) complain that the parent's child had been marked down with a comment that the child was ahead of the music, though the video showed that the child and the partner/coach were in sync. The parent said the judge was a high level judge, who was unaccustomed to the timing problems affecting many rinks, because the high level competitions are held at arenas where the acoustic engineers work hard to produce more consistent timing. (So that half time dance shows are in sync with the music.) The parent said that lower level judges, like the parent, compensate for inconsistent timing, and mostly look for consistency between the two partners.

I bet many skaters and coaches have never thought through these types of problem. And it probably isn't practical to expect people who run lower level tests and competitions to worry about acoustics - there are already a lot of annoying details for them to handle. In fact I know that many don't - because you frequently can't make out the words or music very clearly, a separate issue, at many rinks, which also has the potential to affect scores. Sometimes kids can't even tell that their name has been called. I guess everyone could move to MP3 players and jump drives - but that would be an added expense for rinks that already have CD players.

I'm too lazy to time the video, to see if there is a problem - and I'm not sure how consistent the timing is on video recorders.

[nicklaszlo]

I guess everyone could move to MP3 players and jump drives - but that would be an added expense for rinks that already have CD players.

Nothing will fix the fact that ice is a terrible acoustic surface.  The playback technology is a small part of it; the ceiling, walls, and boards are important but very expensive to fix.

[karne]

Ok - I hope this works! The spin in question is at the very end.

Okay, I'm not an actual tech spec, and spins are not my forte, but I think I know the problem.

- They may not have awarded the difficult entrance. Your free leg got up, but it could have just been a good camel position, rather than the illusion variation.

- You didn't get down fast enough into the sit position - you're supposed to hit in two revs, and you were still too high at the two-rev mark.

- You change position on the first foot (is that what you were asking?) but you don't hold it long enough

- After the change of foot, you get into the tuck-behind position. I think you got the two revs, but it was a bit wobbly, and a hard tech panel might not have given it.

The timing of the music or program length is irrelevant.

I like your tuck behind position though 

[Doubletoe]

The illusion attempt actually looked like just one revolution in camel position (since the free leg was level with the torso), so it looked like a mistake instead of a feature. The cannonball sit variation wouldn't count because you already did that variation earlier in the program (and the position may not have been clear enough to count as a difficult variation). The tuck sit spin was only low enough for one revolution and it needed to be low enough for two revolutions in order to count.  I've been there with that tuck variation so I understand your pain!

[Query]

Nothing will fix the fact that ice is a terrible acoustic surface.

I'm not an audio engineer, but it seems like a straightforwards physics and geometry problem.

Create a large array of downward facing speakers, with narrow but slightly overlapping directional patterns, mounted above the ice, judges and audience, with sound-absorbing material (e.g., curtains and/or foam) around those speakers. Then the sound would bounce back upwards and be re-absorbed. It's such a simple solution, I don't get why it isn't used.

Bleachers, and the audience, where applicable, represent a more complex problem. Since they are above the plane of the ice surface (as are the judges), you need to produce the sound from those speakers with a timing delay. They and the audience also bounce part of the sound in other than vertical directions. Including into the walls of the rink, and the opposite wall of the building - which would have to absorb the sound, else you will get multiple sound bounces with time delays. Add to that the need for the top of the rink walls to be transparent, yet shatter resistant by hockey pucks, and they might be a more complex and expensive problem.

Nothing would be as good as a nice movie theater, but it could be a lot better than it is in some arenas.

Major sports arenas somehow solve most of the problem in other ways - but they throw a lot of money at it. A lot of ice rinks make little or no money, and can't afford fancy sound systems and qualified people to set them up. But it's hard to imagine being worse than the way some ice rinks do it - putting a single speaker on one side of the ice, sometimes right next to the judges. That gives you both time delays, and multiple sound bounces, to the worst possible degree.

The CD speed thing is easily solvable. If you use an adjustable speed CD, you accidentally might be off by 2 or 3 percent - up to about 5.4 seconds over a 3 minute program, 8.1 seconds over a 4.5 minute program. If you use one whose playback speed is electronically locked, that problem essentially disappears - a lot better than expecting each skater to shorten their program by that amount, just in case. OTOH, if the people who set up the test or comp don't understand the issue, they never think to solve it.

[icedancer]

Nice analysis of the acoustics in herent in an ice rink!

I have been on judging panels where the judges are basically sitting behind the speakers - can't really hear the music at all!

Makes it really hard when the kids are doing Interp programs and they can hear their music but we can't and have NO IDEA what they are skating to or what they are trying to get across.

[Query]

I have been on judging panels where the judges are basically sitting behind the speakers - can't really hear the music at all!

OMG.

[techskater]

The illusion attempt actually looked like just one revolution in camel position (since the free leg was level with the torso), so it looked like a mistake instead of a feature. The cannonball sit variation wouldn't count because you already did that variation earlier in the program (and the position may not have been clear enough to count as a difficult variation). The tuck sit spin was only low enough for one revolution and it needed to be low enough for two revolutions in order to count.  I've been there with that tuck variation so I understand your pain!

You stole the words from my fingers

[Doubletoe]

   You stole the words from my fingers

I actually stole them straight from your brain.  You clearly weren't wearing your aluminum cap!