skates for beginner adult and coaching

[MARIATREK]

Hello!

I am new to the sport and i would like your advice on the skates i should purchase and on the coach i should chose. First of all, the options where i live are limited,both for skates and coaches.Concerning the skates there are only Jacksons and the Wifa Primaset. I wouldn't buy a pair because i am a beginner, i do not even do crossovers, but after getting blisters like burns in my feet from the rentals (i glide on ice rather fast for about 4 hours), then i don't have another option. I really like the Jackson Freestyle with the Mirage blade, but i don't think that they are suitable for beginners ...these are for jumps e.t.c There are also the glacier, mistique and artist. The artists come with the Mark 4 blade. Do you think that this blade is not suitable for beginners?

As for the coaches, there are 3 or 4 most of them occupied with high level athlets. There is one who works with adult beginners and HE approached me one day. He told me that i am working only the one leg and i am going to have problems with that ,leaving the other one weaker and he gave me his card. Was his approach good? What do you think? Later on, i took the courage to approach a high level female figure skater (she is amazing!)who is also a coach. I asked if she had time to show me some basic things. She didn't seem VEEERY willing but she was very kind and she gave me her phone number. But really, i feel but to use her valuable time for me....

Ah! I am a female 34 years old ,cyclist, doing martial arts , i have a strong body and i am not light.My feet are not very flat but they don't have the perfect arch.  I am 1.72cm and about 65-67 kilos. 

Thank you very much

[Query]

Most coaches will be happy to assist you if you pay their usual rates.

See if you can watch them teach other adults, and see if their teaching style appeals to you. Do you learn better from words than wordless demos? Some coaches are better at one than the other.

If the high level coach isn't particularly eager for lower level adult students, she may not give you much priority on lesson times - but if you can deal with that and afford her rates, she may be very inspiring nonetheless. I did take away a lot stylistically from a high level coach I took from for a while, even if his teaching style was frustrating for me, and I could rarely meet his standards.

It sounds like a few lessons - or group lessons if you want to economize and you don't have high aspirations - will help you more than fancy skates at this time.

[blue111moon]

You cannot judge skate brands by rentals.  You need to get skates that fit your feet and are not too stiff to keep your ankles from bending at all but are still strong enough to give support.  A good skate shop guy will be able to advise you. 

As for coaches, check into group lessons first or ask the skating director at the rink what coaches might be available and willing.  You don't need a high-level coach to teach you the very basics, but you do need someone who is able to teach adults, who learn differently than children.  Then ask about trial lessons to see how well you work with each coach.  You will have to pay them for their time and expertise so ask about fees as well.

Start slow and take your time. 

[MARIATREK]

Thank you very much for your replies! There is only one coach who teaches adult groups and the man who works in the icerink recommended her to me.I tried to contact her but she did not answer. So i guess i will  call the coach who gave me his card and after all was willing to correct me and dedicate some of his time.

[AgnesNitt]

I think a conscientious coach would advise you to take group lessons first. You should take those and you'll be exposed to other skaters and coaches. It will save you money too.

[littlerain]

I agree, start with the adult groups, which would be much cheaper than taking a lesson privately. (Not sure if you are aware, but it seems like on average private lessons cost about a dollar a minute, if not more! Then you also have to pay for the ice time, which may have to be on freestyle ice depending on your rink rules)

Group lessons are also a great opportunity to see how you prefer to learn. I for one learned a lot of lessons about myself when it comes to learning something like skating, having never been very active as a kid! And then if you like the coach, you can also take lessons from them!

[MARIATREK]

Tomorrow i will go to the ice rink and fing the coach for group lessons, i hope i will find her because she is not answering the phone...As for the skates, do you think that Jackson mistique or artist are more appropriate for a beginner adult?

Thank you very much for your responses!

[Query]

At most rinks you sign up for group lessons through the front desk - you don't need to reach the coach by phone.

[blue111moon]

Don't worry so much about the brand of skates.  Get the ones that fit your feet best.

[Neverdull44]

Ask the skating director/coaches who is good in the area to fit skating boots.   Because you are an adult, you will take a stiffer boot because you weigh more.  But, too stiff of a boot is going to hurt your tendons.   Depending on how your foot is made (wide, narrow, both), will determine which brand you fit best into.  Your own skating boots are key.   Most people who go to a not-so-good fitter, end up getting too big of a boot.   It's very important that the boot fit snug, with little room in the toes or heels.   Room = loss of control & rubbing.  There are various get sleeves that are usually also sold to help pad/fill in areas, and skate shops can punch out a boot in most places.

You are not stuck with a coach, if you do pick one.  You can change coaches, but it should be done by telling the first coach beforehand.  I agree with signing up for group lessons at the rink.  They are a money saver, and if you go through a few cycles, you will get to sample alot of the coaching staff.   Some rinks have websites that explain each coach's qualifications..  Most coaches are going to be 101% fine with teaching you the basics of stroking, crossovers, forwards & backwards, three turns, waltz jumps, and beginning spins.  A top coach is so keyed into the specific tricks for doubles and triples, that they forgot/have no patience/don't specialize in beginners. 

I expect that you will rapidly increase in level, because of your fitness and martial arts background.

When you get to the level of doing most/all of the one rotation jumps, then make sure your coach teaches proper technique.  If you learn wrong technique, you will not progress past single jumps before having to unlearn bad habits.  It's very hard to unlearn bad habits.   You will get frustrated and quit, if you don't hurt yourself.  Yes, I have seen coaches who do teach some bad techniques.  One way to see if you have a coach with good technique is to subscribe to www.icoachskating.com .  If your coach is saying alot of these same things that the top Olympic coaches are saying, then you got a good coach.

[MARIATREK]

Thank you very very much! i will check the ''good coach'' characteristics at this website and keep them in mind. Finally, i called the top coach( she is top for my standards..i don't know if she is olympic champion but she has grace, strength, speed, elacticity and doing those triple axels and fast spins, plus she seems very kind and patient ,i saw her teaching to a low level adolescent) and she called me back after 2 days while i was on the ice rink. Even though i thought she wasn't going to call me back, i saw her and to my surprise she told me''I was calling you just few minutes before to set date for the lesson''. So, we have a lesson on Thursday. The problem is that she is very expensive, she charges 15 euros 30 minutes. I also met another coach, the one who gives group lessons and i will try it on Tuesday. She is very good as well (Russian as well) and a lot cheaper, 5 euros 20 minutes.  As for the skates, i realized that they have to fit like gloves, and it is better to give you a little pain on the toes than having room and then getting blisters. I am still recovering from a huge blister. Some other time, i tried some uncomfortably small skates,i was suffering for 2 hours but when i took them off, my feet were ok!   

[MARIATREK]

Don't worry so much about the brand of skates.  Get the ones that fit your feet best.

I tried both mistique and artists and the latter have more padding and they feel better but i am concerned for the blade. The Mark 4 maybe is for more advanced people. I am scared of the toe picks...

[jlspink22]

What is that in USD? A little more than 15 right? My daughter's coach charges $35/30 min twice a week plus ice time.

Thank you very very much! i will check the ''good coach'' characteristics at this website and keep them in mind. Finally, i called the top coach( she is top for my standards..i don't know if she is olympic champion but she has grace, strength, speed, elacticity and doing those triple axels and fast spins, plus she seems very kind and patient ,i saw her teaching to a low level adolescent) and she called me back after 2 days while i was on the ice rink. Even though i thought she wasn't going to call me back, i saw her and to my surprise she told me''I was calling you just few minutes before to set date for the lesson''. So, we have a lesson on Thursday. The problem is that she is very expensive, she charges 15 euros 30 minutes. I also met another coach, the one who gives group lessons and i will try it on Tuesday. She is very good as well (Russian as well) and a lot cheaper, 5 euros 20 minutes.  As for the skates, i realized that they have to fit like gloves, and it is better to give you a little pain on the toes than having room and then getting blisters. I am still recovering from a huge blister. Some other time, i tried some uncomfortably small skates,i was suffering for 2 hours but when i took them off, my feet were ok!   

[davincisop]

I think the Euro is $1.06 to our $1, if I'm not mistaken. So a few more dollars for 30 minutes than it would be here.


When I was in Italy 6 years ago, the Euro was $1 to a US $1.30, so things worked out to be cheaper.

[MARIATREK]

What is that in USD? A little more than 15 right? My daughter's coach charges $35/30 min twice a week plus ice time.

It is about the same with USD.15.8 dollars. Here everything is cheaper than the states because the average income is less.

[Loops]

MariaTrek-

Don't worry about the blade.  You want a good one, and the MarkIV is designed for beginners.  It's not at all too advanced for what you want to be doing, but it's a good quality blade that will take you through the basics, and into jumps.  Many of my fellow adult skaters use them.

Those toe picks may look scary, but really they're great for just starting out.  You do actually want more pick than the recreational blades give you.  If you want to see a "scary" toepick ask to look at a Pattern99 or other elite-level blade, or have a look at the SkateScience website.  That will give you a better idea, I think!  But really, the toepick isn't all that scary once you get skating on it.  You NEED it actually, and the only part that is close to the ice is what's called the "drag pick", that's the very first tooth on the bottom.  The rest come into play for toe jumps and foot work. 

Coaching is cheaper over here than in the US, but still the prices you quote may be relatively expensive for things where you are.  I don't know what the going rate is in Greece- in France we do the "continental" system, i.e. group lessons for everyone on the session, even though we do often get one-on-one coaching.  I'd go with the coach with whom you mesh the best, and you feel the most comfortable working with.  It's very much OK and accepted to do trial lessons (at least in the US) to get a feel for how things might work out.  Do you have the option for group lessons?  I do agree, that's the way to go at the beginning.

But YAY on the coaches getting back to you and you organising some lessons!!!!!  Very exciting!!!!!

[Query]

Since you are new, it really doesn't matter that you get a top coach at first. You want to learn the basics of
1. Falling safely (as a martial artist, you can, though you may want to practice the sliding falls along with rolling falls, because they are often more gentle on the ice).
2. Balancing on one edge of one foot while gliding forwards and backwards, by shifting all your weigh to be over that balance point with every stroke.
3. Using the edges of your blades (and by extension, feet) to push and pull with those edges
4. Pushing more outwards than back on basic strokes. Don't touch your toe pick to the ice on basic strokes.
5. Keep your back reasonably straight, looking ahead or slightly up, and generally having an attractive posture. The forwards lean that bike racers use is very efficient (though it may eventually give you a sore back), but doesn't meet the artistic standards of figure skating.
6. Keeping things aligned in such a way as to avoid damaging the body.
7. Using your muscles efficiently. A lot of people think they don't have the strength to push and pull sideways against edges - but that is mostly because they are so scared of losing their balance that they tighten all their muscles at once to make themselves stand completely still. That means they use muscles which pull the leg one way at the same time as muscles which pull it the opposite way - and they also tighten the "stabilizing muscles" which try to stop all motion. It takes more strength to stand perfectly still than to do basic skating motions. Once you learn to selectively loosen the muscles that prevent the desired motions, while keeping enough muscle tension elsewhere to maintain good posture and avoid uncontrolled oscillations, the basic skating motions are almost effortless. For many people, this idea of using muscles selectively is very hard to learn, because most people are mostly unaware of what muscles they use. But I bet it will be easy for a martial artist like you, if the movies that show martial artists doing elaborate exercises to gain perfect control of their bodies are anything like reality.

Any figure skater could teach these things, if they understand how to teach to your style of learning. Until you can do these things, there is going to be very little difference between the styles that high and low level coaches teach, and it is a waste of the high level coach's time and your money to use a high level coach.

As for the skates, i realized that they have to fit like gloves, and it is better to give you a little pain on the toes than having room and then getting blisters. I am still recovering from a huge blister. Some other time, i tried some uncomfortably small skates,i was suffering for 2 hours but when i took them off, my feet were ok!   

I disagree! Boots need to support your feet, whereas gloves only need to look nice and keep you warm.

Boots shouldn't create pain anywhere. A good fit mostly means uniformly firm pressure almost everywhere. For most people, there are three exceptions:

1. You want lessened pressure around your toes. Your toes are possibly the worst places to squish, because it can create a number of severe medical problems over time.
2. You want no pressure in front of the toes.
3. You want little or no pressure in front of the ankle or behind the ankle - so the boot doesn't cut or press hard against the leg when you point your toes or flex your ankle the opposite way.

Blisters happen when somewhere on the boot is too loose against your foot, and rubs against the skin. Instead of getting a small boot that squishes your toes, get one that is larger - or better yet, one with wider space for the toes - and add tape or moleskin to the boot to fill the voids where it is loose, to try to make everything right. Also, cover the blister with a bandage, so the boot can't rub against your skin there, or it will get worse.

>My feet are not very flat but they don't have the perfect arch

There is no "perfect arch", and unless you have feet that are extreme, there are no "flat feet" or "high arches". But there are shoes and boots which happen to don't fit your particular feet. When people say they have "bad arches", "flat feet" or "high arches" they just mean that most shoes and boots in stores near them don't happen to fit the shapes of their feet. But you can fix that very easily. If the insole is soft and removable (most are), you can put tape or moleskin underneath it so it matches the shape of your feet. If you need more detailed instructions, I can send you a link.

[MARIATREK]

Since you are new, it really doesn't matter that you get a top coach at first. You want to learn the basics of
1. Falling safely (as a martial artist, you can, though you may want to practice the sliding falls along with rolling falls, because they are often more gentle on the ice).
2. Balancing on one edge of one foot while gliding forwards and backwards, by shifting all your weigh to be over that balance point with every stroke.
3. Using the edges of your blades (and by extension, feet) to push and pull with those edges
4. Pushing more outwards than back on basic strokes. Don't touch your toe pick to the ice on basic strokes.
5. Keep your back reasonably straight, looking ahead or slightly up, and generally having an attractive posture. The forwards lean that bike racers use is very efficient (though it may eventually give you a sore back), but doesn't meet the artistic standards of figure skating.
6. Keeping things aligned in such a way as to avoid damaging the body.
7. Using your muscles efficiently. A lot of people think they don't have the strength to push and pull sideways against edges - but that is mostly because they are so scared of losing their balance that they tighten all their muscles at once to make themselves stand completely still. That means they use muscles which pull the leg one way at the same time as muscles which pull it the opposite way - and they also tighten the "stabilizing muscles" which try to stop all motion. It takes more strength to stand perfectly still than to do basic skating motions. Once you learn to selectively loosen the muscles that prevent the desired motions, while keeping enough muscle tension elsewhere to maintain good posture and avoid uncontrolled oscillations, the basic skating motions are almost effortless. For many people, this idea of using muscles selectively is very hard to learn, because most people are mostly unaware of what muscles they use. But I bet it will be easy for a martial artist like you, if the movies that show martial artists doing elaborate exercises to gain perfect control of their bodies are anything like reality.

Any figure skater could teach these things, if they understand how to teach to your style of learning. Until you can do these things, there is going to be very little difference between the styles that high and low level coaches teach, and it is a waste of the high level coach's time and your money to use a high level coach.

I disagree! Boots need to support your feet, whereas gloves only need to look nice and keep you warm.

Boots shouldn't create pain anywhere. A good fit mostly means uniformly firm pressure almost everywhere. For most people, there are three exceptions:

1. You want lessened pressure around your toes. Your toes are possibly the worst places to squish, because it can create a number of severe medical problems over time.
2. You want no pressure in front of the toes.
3. You want little or no pressure in front of the ankle or behind the ankle - so the boot doesn't cut or press hard against the leg when you point your toes or flex your ankle the opposite way.

Blisters happen when somewhere on the boot is too loose against your foot, and rubs against the skin. Instead of getting a small boot that squishes your toes, get one that is larger - or better yet, one with wider space for the toes - and add tape or moleskin to the boot to fill the voids where it is loose, to try to make everything right. Also, cover the blister with a bandage, so the boot can't rub against your skin there, or it will get worse.

>My feet are not very flat but they don't have the perfect arch

There is no "perfect arch", and unless you have feet that are extreme, there are no "flat feet" or "high arches". But there are shoes and boots which happen to don't fit your particular feet. When people say they have "bad arches", "flat feet" or "high arches" they just mean that most shoes and boots in stores near them don't happen to fit the shapes of their feet. But you can fix that very easily. If the insole is soft and removable (most are), you can put tape or moleskin underneath it so it matches the shape of your feet. If you need more detailed instructions, I can send you a link.

i totally agree with you,  these are the skills i need to develop now and especially how to fall ...i am scared of falling with the face or the back on the ice. Most of falls on my bike are-luckily- harmless because i fall on my sides and i just get bruises .I am already working on my posture, i always take care of skating with the back srtaight tightening my abdominal and back muscles and pressing the shoulder blades down. This posture gives me stability but it is a bit tiring. I have noticed that there is a slight lordosis in figure skaters in contrast to ballet dancers (i did some ballet when i was young)who tighten the muscles in the bottom and flatten their back. This is also something i want to discover in ice skating, the role of the bottom, does it have to be tighten all the time like ballet? The role of the upper body, i think is similar with ballet (shoulders down, back straight and abdominals pulling upwards). The shaolin kung fu i do helps in terms of strength and flexibility but it doesn't include falling as there is no body contact like kick boxing e.t.c. We are practicing forms like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXNByYRPmbk .The training includes jumping on two and one leg, jumping on the stairs with one leg, running in four (with feet and hands on the floor,like an animal) and standing for long periods with legs bent 90 degrees, standing on the hands against the wall. All these exersices build strong body but are very tiring as well, That's why i am taking a break now...i had a back strain 6 months ago from a forceful  back hyperextention and i felt like taking a break from kung fu but i already miss it..In the meanwhile i am doing pole dancing and i love it! it helps core strength and stability. Please give me more info on the padding and taping of the skates! Do you place the tape on the foot or inside the skate?

[riley876]

re Lordosis.   Back when I had an iCoachSkating subscription, I remember there being at least 3 videos in which coaches critique their (fairly high level) skaters that they "arch their back too much", especially during spins and jump landings.    Never saw any in which they critique anyone for "not enough back arch" or "shoulders slumped too far forward".   I'm sure it happens in some people, but all this leads me to believe that lordosis in skating is a rampant epidemic that is biomechanically rubbish.  That has no place in athletic skating.   Excessive lordosis reduces the ability for the hamstrings to support the knees in a cantilevered way.    Possibly also an epidemic outside of skating too blameable on too much sitting.    Why do coaches etc at low levels insist on this ridiculous "upright figure skating posture"?   Especially when it's clear that top level skaters don't do it (for good reason!).

I wonder if "upright posture" thing is a throwback to victorian "english style" skating, done in corsets.   Trouble with figure skating, is that it's too traditional for it's own good.   As you note Ballet have long since thrown off this rubbish.

Chris Conte had a great little set of vids on iCoachSkating where he suggested teach kids to skate like monkeys!  Clearly he knows a thing or two.

[Query]

I'll send you a link to my page on falling gently, though I thought martial artists were among the real experts.

The most obvious thing about "good" figure skating posture, is that no one thinks you have it unless it hurts. 

One gal with about 190 degree hip turnout told me she did it mostly with her butt muscles. It hurt a lot to do it - but she loved showing off her really extreme spread eagles so much that pain didn't matter.

There is supposed to be a major distinction between muscle use and posture in ballet and modern - that ballet dancers stretch upwards to be taller, while modern dancers are taught to push into the floor. I think the choice is more part of the desired "look" of the particular art than for health, and the same is true of figure skating. Kind of like those pathological looking "balance" moves gymnasts do on balance beams, that I cringe to watch.

A book by  Daniel Arnheim, used by certified physical trainers (which I'm not), said that ballet was second only to football in terms of creating injuries, so obviously ballet isn't altogether healthy either. (The book was old enough that Arnheim might not have treated figure skaters.)

It seems to me that little hockey skaters learn to skate a lot faster than little figure skaters of the same age, which suggests that the way they learn to move is more natural. The rinks I've asked send fewer hockey players to the hospital than figure skaters, though that is mostly for acute injuries, while I think lordosis would lead to more chronic than acute injuries.

[riley876]

I agree, hockey skaters typically use a much more biomechanically sound method of locomotion.   It's distilled to perfection in speed skating.

Speed skating technique shows the benefits to knee bend of having a "cat back" i.e. convex arch in the back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RclRy_eSzVg

(BTW for those that don't get the joke at the beginning:  "Beginner Ice Speed Skater" Joe Mantia, is actually "Top ex Inline Speed Skater" Joe Mantia")

[AgnesNitt]

re Lordosis.   Back when I had an iCoachSkating subscription, I remember there being at least 3 videos in which coaches critique their (fairly high level) skaters that they "arch their back too much", especially during spins and jump landings.    Never saw any in which they critique anyone for "not enough back arch" or "shoulders slumped too far forward".   I'm sure it happens in some people, but all this leads me to believe that lordosis in skating is a rampant epidemic that is biomechanically rubbish.  That has no place in athletic skating.   Excessive lordosis reduces the ability for the hamstrings to support the knees in a cantilevered way.    Possibly also an epidemic outside of skating too blameable on too much sitting.    Why do coaches etc at low levels insist on this ridiculous "upright figure skating posture"?   Especially when it's clear that top level skaters don't do it (for good reason!).

I wonder if "upright posture" thing is a throwback to victorian "english style" skating, done in corsets.   Trouble with figure skating, is that it's too traditional for it's own good.   As you note Ballet have long since thrown off this rubbish.

Chris Conte had a great little set of vids on iCoachSkating where he suggested teach kids to skate like monkeys!  Clearly he knows a thing or two.

Lordosis is not something you can fix without a lot of treatment, it's a painful physical condition not something that a coach can 'just fix' by criticizing.

I agree that an artificial swayback is not attractive and probably bad for the skater, but that's not the same as lordosis.

[Doubletoe]

The rinks I've asked send fewer hockey players to the hospital than figure skaters, though that is mostly for acute injuries, while I think lordosis would lead to more chronic than acute injuries.

If hockey players stopped wearing helmets and pads, I bet that would change, LOL!

Anyway, the best tip I've ever been given on how to avoid falling on the ice is this:  Keep your knees and *ankles* deeply bent so that you feel the front of your ankles pressing into the tongues and laces of your boots.  And, keeping your back a little arched, keep your chest pushed a little forward so that your chest is over your knees and your knees are over your toes.  That will keep you on the balls of your feet so that you won't slip backward.  If skating forward, you'll also want to keep your skating foot a little flexed (never pointed) so you don't catch your toepick.