Kaitlyn Weaver wearing Skate Science blades?

[Loops]

hopefully their marketing strategy changes and they realize that if they want to claim they are the only ones to use science behind their blades, they need to back it up.

Hear hear!

[ls99]

Seems this guy copied his answers from MK/wilson. About four years ago I asked MK about "specific differences" of their marketed blades, other than the obvious of synchro and dance blade lengths. Their answer was roughly along the lines of this guy. Essentially a load of rubbish. Oh, did suggest I talk to my coach. From my observation and discussions  coaches tend to have biases, and unlikely to have specific inside info on technical/engineering aspects of blades, save for maybe experience based opinion. BTW I don't and never have had a coach. But am on first name bases with several.

FWIW I used professionals for a while then found a set of Gold Seals on fleabay for a really good (cheap) price, at my current rate they should last until I am 70.

I do thank PhysicsOnIce for making the effort at getting useful answers.

[Query]

>Most new blades are being made of a carbon fiber and stainless steel combination.

No. AFAIK, only Mk and Wilson (HD Sports) "Revolution" blades - their most expensive blades - use Carbon Fiber, and only in the chassis (if you call it that) that holds the runner.

Also, some stainless steel alloys are called "high carbon stainless steel".

I would guess that all of the major blade makers use a lot of "metallurgical science" in making their blades.

"Sports science" is harder to quantify, and has to vary from skater to skater.

The truth is, for the most part, all figure skating blades beyond beginner level are about the same shape, within a very small number of mm, and have been for several decades, so that approximate shape must be fairly optimal for what figure skaters currently do. The fact that adding a mm there, subtracting a mm there, or unbalancing the edges by .001" or so, can be such a point of disagreement among different skaters, just emphasizes that point. (OK, you might also have as much as a .5" difference in the length of the tail between a Freestyle, Dance or Synchro blade - but they are doing different things with their blades.)

[PhysicsOnIce]

I'm sorry to revive this topic and that is is HORRIBLY long.

Since I was bored at home and  had nothing better to do today I gave Warren Maxwell from SkateScience a call. I spent slightly over an hour on the phone with him discussing the blades (The guy likes to talk). He was actually incredibly knowledgeable about our sport and the physical demands it puts on the body. The reason why he started SkateScience was because he was tired of seeing skaters struggle and most of all get injured. He believes that while our sport has matured or equipment has not. He truly believes that the ever rising injury rates in our sport are due to the this fact. He apparently was asked to consult for MK and when he proposed to research into blade more geared to the current demands of our sport, MK told him they were not willing to do that because their blades were selling fine. So, he walked out the door and started SkateScience. 

While he did not give me specifics details on the exact shape or measurements, I as able to coax a bit more information out of him on the phone than the website states and actually even offered skating related advise.

So here is a summary of what we spoke about:

1) Blade Profile and Shape:

• The blades are designed to be slightly wider than your standard MK/Wilson blades. This apparently was done in order to help the skater have more noticeable edges and changes of edges as well as the edges be stronger and more stable.


• There is 3 Rockers. The front, the middle and the tail. In comparison to MK/Wilson blades the middle section is much flatter (sorry he was not willing to give me the exact numbers), and the front rocker is actually smaller. The extended middle section was drawn from figure blades if I understood him right in order to provide the skater with an easier stroking and pushing experience and more stability while the front section was shorten to provide the skater with a faster transition to and from the toe picks for a more explosive jump take off and an easier transition to the middle section of the blade on landing.  This should also help with consistency and stability of jump take offs.  However the transition point between the two rockers (i.e our spin point, or sweet spot) is actually bigger making finding the sweet spot easier. Spins as a result should be more center and retain their speed for longer. 


• The Toe Rack and Front Rocker are designed to allow and help with pre-rotation on the toe or on the front rocker before take off. In order to see if this was needed they worked with DarthFish for some indepth analysis. He wasn't too specific on what analysis or how they were performed but he did mentioned that the blades allow for a more vertical take off where you pull in on the way up instead of the  old-fashion long delayed rotation jumps. This should allow the skater to use more of his/her energy in the vertical component, meaning more airtime, assuming all other variables remain the same.  It will still be a parabolic motion, just much more narrow. If you take a look at most Elite skates with clean Triples and Quads most are pre-rotating by as much as 98deg (i.e the allowed but unspoken and 'invisible' quarter of a turn). [\li]
  
  
  • The blades do not require special sharpening methodologies or equipment they can be sharpened just like MK/Wilson blades with the exception that because they are stainless steel which makes them harder, they will need a few extra passes on the first sharpening. They do no come pre-sharpened. They should maintain there sharpening longer. His example was if you sharpen your blades every 4 to 5 weeks, you can easily go  6 to 8 weeks at minimum (I don't sharpen mine that often...) [\li]
    
    
    • The area were least improvement is likely to be seen , although improvement non the less, should be toe jumps according to Maxwell. My guess is that this is due to the fact that the toe rack seems to have been relatively unchanged, or at least he did not mention any changes. However he mentioned that while the improvement would not be huge, a skater would definitively see improvement in the stability of the skating foot and weight transfer should be smoother. I wasn't able to ask him exactly how or why but this probably has to do with the back rocker. [\li]
      
      
    Customer Service
    
    
    
    • Apparently there has been approximately 3,500 pairs of SkateScience blades Sold. Of those only two customers have complained, and those two customers were extremely overbladed. They had purchased the TripleQuad blade, when the skater was hardly working on their doubles....However according to Maxwell they happily exchanged them for the DoublePlus and made all appropriate refunds. This was a point he was extremely proud of.
    • There is no  return policy in place. The company has only 5 employees and he heads the customer service department and the company. He likes to talk to all his customers before they purchase the blades directly, and as such there is no return policy in place. If you have any problems with the blades, the best thing to do is to call him and speak with him directly. He reassured me that he would do his best to resolve the problem or exchange or possibly even refund the blades. [\li]
      
      • Apparently, in the last two years 6 World Medals have been won (3 in Dance and 3 in Freestyle) and a few in juniors. He was unable to give the skaters names since they are currently not sponsored by him. Releasing the names would require him to paid the skaters and they are not under contract. He did hint that Ashley Cain and Katilyn Weaver has just visited him recently, however he is a Risport manufacturing consultant as well and he also talked about boots, so it is hard to say if he was referring to the boots or the blades.
      • Also, there is apparently a club in NJ in which the dance coach was so delighted to with the results that the whole dance team ( 9 teams) switched blades. He has heard no complains. Anyone skate in NJ?
      
      So there you guys have it. I am still not 100% sold on these, mainly because of the price tag, but I do know that there is one of the Belgium Junior girls with them and she loves them. Overall the man seems really nice and wants to help. He also is incredibly knowledgeable with the bio and physical mechanism involved in skating. If anyone is in Dallas, Tx , he lives, works and is based out of Dallas and would love to talk to people. Had I known this... I might have gone to see him last time I was there.
      
      Just so we are clear, I do not work for nor am affiliated with SkateScience in anyway other than being a possible consumer.

[Query]

Cool! Very nice that you got such a complete description.

>The blades are designed to be slightly wider than your standard MK/Wilson blades.

Do you think they do that on their Dance blades? Most Dance blades are actually milled thinner at the bottom, which possibly makes for quicker edge changes. For me it is also easier to twizzle on (thin) Dance blades. Thinner is also faster.

Maybe wider would also make them better (after toe pick removal) for school figures, because that is the way school figure blades used to be, something he probably didn't mention.

>...3 Rockers. The front, the middle and the tail.

Did the skate science guy explain why and how the tail is different?

>the middle section is much flatter

I bet he didn't mention that that would make them more like a hockey blade, or like a beginner figure skating blade.

>The Toe Rack and Front Rocker are designed to allow and help with pre-rotation on the toe or on the front rocker before take off.

How? There are several obvious ways to do that...

>because they are stainless steel which makes them harder

Any material science or metallurgy textbook disagrees.

There are also several trade-offs associated with harder and softer steels. If Skate Science really hardens the edge more, it is hard to guess whether it is the right choice, for a given skater.

(For me, stainless steel Ultima Matrix blade edges do last much longer than high carbon steel MK and Wilson edges - probably because stainless steel doesn't rust as quickly.)

If you get these blades, I would love to know how well you think they live up to the hype, and whether it helps your skating.

[beginner skater]

Thanks for a really interesting post PhysicsonIce. I would be interested in hearing his views on boots too. A while back when browsing I found some articles blaming the stiffness of modern boots for injuries to skaters limbs and feet, and suggesting more flexible boots but then the topic seemed to peter out. Anyone know what happened there?

[tstop4me]

Here is one isolated observation on Skate Science blades.  The shop I go for sharpening has a display of their products.  While I was waiting for my blades to be sharpened, I picked up the Skate Science blades to look them over.  What struck me immediately was the spotty appearance of the braze joints between the stanchions and the mounting plates.  (1) I don't know whether this is typical.  (2) I don't know whether this is purely cosmetic or has an impact on the integrity of the joints.  (3) The joints on all the MK and Wilson blades I've seen (including lower end models, MK One Star and Wilson Majestic) have been flawless upon casual visual inspection.  If you buy Skate Science, I recommend that you inspect the joints closely.

[AgnesNitt]

3 rockers? Sounds like classic Pattern 99s to me.

[PhysicsOnIce]

Like I said I'm not associated with them at all, but:

1) He did mention that wider makes the middle rocker more similar to old figure blades and mentioned that they did this for stability. He actually went a on a long side tangent of the necessity of school figures.
2) He did not mention making them like hockey skates or beginner skaters. He did however use the speed skating blades, which are completely flat, as an example, as to why they wanted a flatter middle section.
3) He did not mention how or why the tail was different. But from our conversation the layout of the rockers seemed to be dissimilar to the Pattern 99. The way he explained it to me was that middle rocker is the flattest and longest of all. I got the impression that we might be looking at something more like 12, 8-9, ? . But he was keeping that info pretty close to heart.
4) I have no knowledge  of material science or metallurgy so I can't speak to how or why these would be harder or softer.

I sorry I can't be more useful, but I would love to get my hands on a pair of these and breakdown the radius...sorry that sounds like I'm trying to steal his design, but I just really want to know If they are truly different. I'm actually leaning toward Phantoms anyway.

Thanks for a really interesting post PhysicsonIce. I would be interested in hearing his views on boots too. A while back when browsing I found some articles blaming the stiffness of modern boots for injuries to skaters limbs and feet, and suggesting more flexible boots but then the topic seemed to peter out. Anyone know what happened there?

From personal experience, the wrong boot can and WILL destroy your feet, or in my case my ankle. I was overbooted and in way too small boots, which caused me to have surgery on my right ankle. He was very quick to promote Risport, but I'm sure if you want he will be willing to talk to you about it. His email is on the website of SS. 

[Loops]

Brilliant update, thanks!  I too am super curious about these blades.  I'm not at a level to take advantage of most of their features, especially given that they seem to be designed to optimize jumping, which I am not doing these days.  Under other circumstances, that wouldn't stop me, but at that price point......

Query, you should ring him up, and see what you can glean from him.  I bet you two would have a fantastic conversation!!!!

My old patch blades (MK Silver test) are noticeably wider than my free blades.  They have a 7'radius though, and I couldn't tell you what the spin rocker is like.  Given that I have a 1.5 roh on them, it's not something I'd try anyway, even if they were mounted.  Gotta say, I agree with him on figures.  Among other things, they helped strengthen feet and ankles.  I think the hyper-stiff boots today are in part to compensate for that loss (well, plus the greater number of 3's and now 4's that skaters are doing)......

Did he mention anything about side honing or tapering?  I really want to try a pair of side-honed blades.....

eta- out of curiosity, why phantoms?

[PhysicsOnIce]

Both him and my skate tech here in Belgium are very adamant that neither side honing or tapering nor parabolics are worth it. They both say that the design seems to not have been really researched ( wouldn't surprise me considering the other stories that Maxwell mentioned) nor have they seen  a noticeable improvement in skaters using them.

Last time I spoke with my skate tech, I mentioned that I wanted to possibly switch to Phantoms Parabolics and she was very quick to persuade my otherwise despite there higher price tag. Some people love them, some people hate them, some people think they are not worth it and both Maxwell and her are definitively in the later camp.

As to why Phantoms, there is a few reasons. I have skated all of my life on a 7ft rocker (i.e. MK Profs) and I am comfortable with it. But given all what happened last year and the fact that I have been off the ice for several months now I figure that if I have to switch blades I might as well do it now. My coach wants me in a more aggressive blade and has recommended that I go with Phantoms and anyone above axel level in our club wears Phantoms. Everytime someone realizes that I am still on Profs they are very surprised. I don't have any particular issues, but for example my footwork is EXTREMELY Slow and my jump consistency is all over the place. All issues that my coach thinks might be resolved by moving me up in a blade. So if I can get a blade that will help with stability mainly on my landings and will help with speed and my footwork, I would love it, regardless what blade it is. However having heard that SS blades are suppose to do all that... my interested spiked. The price difference though is over 100€ , which has me debating is it worth it.

[sarahspins]

As to why Phantoms, there is a few reasons. I have skated all of my life on a 7ft rocker (i.e. MK Profs) and I am comfortable with it. But given all what happened last year and the fact that I have been off the ice for several months now I figure that if I have to switch blades I might as well do it now. My coach wants me in a more aggressive blade and has recommended that I go with Phantoms and anyone above axel level in our club wears Phantoms. Everytime someone realizes that I am still on Profs they are very surprised. I don't have any particular issues, but for example my footwork is EXTREMELY Slow and my jump consistency is all over the place. All issues that my coach thinks might be resolved by moving me up in a blade. So if I can get a blade that will help with stability mainly on my landings and will help with speed and my footwork, I would love it, regardless what blade it is. However having heard that SS blades are suppose to do all that... my interested spiked. The price difference though is over 100€ , which has me debating is it worth it.

Just to throw another option at you - I skate on Phantom profile Paramount blades.  IMO it's the best of "both" for me - I skated on Phantom Specials before, and really liked the pick configuration and blade profile, so moving over to the Paramounts was a very easy transition.  I really like that they're SS - not only do I go much, much longer between sharpening, but there's also zero chance that my blades will rust if I don't dry them off immediately, and I personally think that SS glides a bit different on the ice (in a GOOD way).

My Phantom Specials were dovetailed, not side honed, but I've really noticed no difference going to a straight sided blade.  The paramounts are still tapered from front to back.

[Query]

Query, you should ring him up, and see what you can glean from him.  I bet you two would have a fantastic conversation!!!!

I did, a long time ago. My results were posted on this forum, back then. But I didn't get so many details. I don't need new blades right now, so I won't waste his time again.

BTW "Mr. Edge", an extremely respectable Chicago area skate tech, loves Skate Science blades.

[PhysicsOnIce]

In case anyone wants to know there is a pair of SkateScience Double Plus on Ebay... unfortunately they are not my size...

Am I wrong or do Paramount blades require a set-up to be sharped. I know that there is a set of blades out there that my skate tech can't sharpen and I think that is Paramounts.

[Query]

Paramount and Ultima Matrix blades both have something in the mount that sticks out around where they hold the "runner", which makes them difficult or impossible to mount in some blade holders. But why not contact your pro shop to get a definitive answer. Probably just as easy as posting here.

[tstop4me]

The blades do not require special sharpening methodologies or equipment they can be sharpened just like MK/Wilson blades with the exception that because they are stainless steel which makes them harder, they will need a few extra passes on the first sharpening. They do no come pre-sharpened. They should maintain there sharpening longer. His example was if you sharpen your blades every 4 to 5 weeks, you can easily go  6 to 8 weeks at minimum (I don't sharpen mine that often...)

>because they are stainless steel which makes them harder
Any material science or metallurgy textbook disagrees.
There are also several trade-offs associated with harder and softer steels. If Skate Science really hardens the edge more, it is hard to guess whether it is the right choice, for a given skater.
(For me, stainless steel Ultima Matrix blade edges do last much longer than high carbon steel MK and Wilson edges - probably because stainless steel doesn't rust as quickly.)

4) I have no knowledge  of material science or metallurgy so I can't speak to how or why these would be harder or softer.

Just to expand on Query's comments.  Stainless steel is not inherently harder than carbon steel.  The hardness of carbon steel and the hardness of stainless steel depend on a number of factors, including alloy composition, thermal treatment, and mechanical treatment.  Over the range of hardness suitable for skate blades, the range of hardness for carbon steel and stainless steel overlap:  the hardness of a particular stainless steel can be greater than, equal to, or less than the hardness of a particular carbon steel.  The hardness of both carbon steel and stainless steel can be increased to the point at which the material is no longer serviceable for skate blades:  the edges become too brittle, and crack or shatter upon impact.  Besides hardness, there are other properties that affect durability of an edge under skating conditions.  Query has mentioned corrosion resistance.  Another is a metallurgical property referred to as toughness, which also is a function of alloy composition, thermal treatment, and mechanical treatment.

I've not seen any test data reported by manufacturers or independent test labs on the hardness of various blades.  Many moons ago (in the 70's I believe) Wilson proudly advertised that their top-of-the-line Gold Seals were individually tested for hardness with a diamond indent tester, and the diamond indent mark was left on the final product.  They didn't report the values, however.  They don't advertise the individual diamond indent marks anymore; so I don't know whether they still test every sample of Gold Seals.

[riley876]

I've not seen any test data reported by manufacturers or independent test labs on the hardness of various blades.  Many moons ago (in the 70's I believe) Wilson proudly advertised that their top-of-the-line Gold Seals were individually tested for hardness with a diamond indent tester, and the diamond indent mark was left on the final product.  They didn't report the values, however.  They don't advertise the individual diamond indent marks anymore; so I don't know whether they still test every sample of Gold Seals.

If it's one of the standard indent tests, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_hardness_test the actual hardness number is measured from the size of the indent.   Anyone with one of these blades care to measure the average diagonal of the mark?

[tstop4me]

If it's one of the standard indent tests, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_hardness_test the actual hardness number is measured from the size of the indent.   Anyone with one of these blades care to measure the average diagonal of the mark?

I don't think this would be worthwhile.  There are different diamond indent testers out there, operating on different principles (the common Rockwell tester measures differential depth of indents); and the equipment requires special calibration procedures.  Don't know which one Wilson used.  Raw measurements of the indent by themselves will not provide useful information.  Also, as I mentioned, I'm not sure Wilson even does this anymore.  Does anyone know?

[Query]

Additional info.

Mike Cunningham (a skate tech) had Rockwell hardness - he didn't say which one) measured professionally at a steel heat treatment plant for high end MK (and Wilson?) blades (high carbon steel) - the result was around Rockwell 60, at least when they do things "right".

But the issue is more complicated. On high end MK and Wilson figure skating blades, the rest of the blade is softer than the edge (about Rockwell 40) - on purpose. They start with hardened steel, but temper the whole blade, and re-harden the edge. The hard edge slows wear. The softer body presumably warps, then returns to original shape, to absorb most of the impact, so they break less often than would otherwise be true.

I can't find which stainless steel alloy Ultima uses on their high end (Matrix) blades. But a stainless steel alloy used by one of their competitors has a maximum achievable hardness of 60. The non-runner part of Matrix blades is aircraft 7000 aluminum alloy. I don't have any data on how Matrix/MK/Wilson blades compare in durability.

So what should we conclude from all this? Your guess is as good as mine.

[tstop4me]

Additional info.

Mike Cunningham (a skate tech) had Rockwell hardness - he didn't say which one) measured professionally at a steel heat treatment plant for high end MK (and Wilson?) blades (high carbon steel) - the result was around Rockwell 60, at least when they do things "right".

But the issue is more complicated. On high end MK and Wilson figure skating blades, the rest of the blade is softer than the edge (about Rockwell 40) - on purpose. They start with hardened steel, but temper the whole blade, and re-harden the edge. The hard edge slows wear. The softer body presumably warps, then returns to original shape, to absorb most of the impact, so they break less often than would otherwise be true.

I can't find which stainless steel alloy Ultima uses on their high end (Matrix) blades. But a stainless steel alloy used by one of their competitors has a maximum achievable hardness of 60. The non-runner part of Matrix blades is aircraft 7000 aluminum alloy. I don't have any data on how Matrix/MK/Wilson blades compare in durability.

So what should we conclude from all this? Your guess is as good as mine.

(1) Do you have any info on the depth of the hardened edge?  That would obviously limit the number of sharpenings that could be done.

(2) Well, if I brought my skate blades to a test lab for hardness tests, and the results were HRC (Hardness Rockwell C scale) 60, I would conclude that the manufacturer got it right, since that is about the optimal value.  I'm also interested in knife blades.  There is info on the hardness of various knife blades and how well the edges of knife blades hold up under particular applications.  Above HRC 60, the edge of a knife blade becomes prone to chipping (other factors besides hardness alone come into play).   A knife blade with an edge hardness greater than HRC 60 is great for sushi chefs filleting fish, but not so great for chopping.  Considering the abuse the edge of a skate blade is subjected to, an edge hardness of about HRC 60 is optimal.

[Query]

(1) Do you have any info on the depth of the hardened edge?  That would obviously limit the number of sharpenings that could be done.

According to info that I got from someone who sharpened for Riedell (before they came out with their own brand of blades), MK and Wilson harden to a greater depth than the ground off nickel and chrome plating - so it is the depth of what they ground off, rather than the hardening depth, that limits how many sharpenings you can do. (Because if you sharpen beyond the depth of the chrome relief facet [as one person names the plating removal], the edges occur in the soft plating metal, making a poor edge that chips off easily, I think.)

You could grind off a little more plating depth yourself, to get more sharpenings. But that is a lot of high precision milling work, that would produce undesirable results if you didn't mill things evenly. I haven't gone that far. I'm not a machinist, and don't have a machine shop.

Anyway, since the guy didn't work for HD Sports (which makes MK and Wilson blades), the info might be wrong. Also - maybe it is only partially hardened at the greatest depths. I'm not a metallurgist, or even an engineer, and don't understand how it all works.

In truth, you often get another limit even before the plating removal depth: The toe pick starts to interfere with skating more. You can trim back the toe pick (as some skate techs eventually do), but that causes the toe pick to start further forward on the blade. Trying to compensate for that (by changing the mounting position and blade shape) is way too much like trying to make your own blade, and would be a lot of work. Sometimes you just have to buy a new blade.

[PhysicsOnIce]

Sorry to keep reviving this thread, but I just spotted The SS quad/triple. Apparently Yuka Nagai ( https://youtu.be/VVADk3UMFCk?t=1625) is actually using them during the Grand Prix. The question becomes if she likes them or not.

[tstop4me]

Sorry to keep reviving this thread, but I just spotted The SS quad/triple. Apparently Yuka Nagai ( https://youtu.be/VVADk3UMFCk?t=1625) is actually using them during the Grand Prix. The question becomes if she likes them or not.

The only really en pointe question is whether any particular pair of blades are right for YOU.