off ice Ina Bauer and Spread Eagle

[drskater]

My coach watches me do the Ina bauer and Spread Eagle (easy) off ice, on skates, and asserts, "If you can do 'em off ice you should be able to do 'em on ice."

But I can't do them on ice--the blades get in the way! Does anyone else have this problem? Is it really true that off-ice abiality translates on the ice. I feel like an idiot.

[FigureSpins]

The blades make a difference, plus the body lean needed feels different on the ice than off.
I think the fact that you're not moving off-ice also makes a big difference.  As you glide on the ice, you need to keep your legs from slipping apart and wishboning you.  (Adductor/Abductor muscles I think?  rsk8d would know for certain.)

Keep working on it and I'm sure you'll get them down pat.  I have two students who weren't doing these particularly well at the start.  They now look really good, I'm hoping to include it in their programs.

[jjane45]

Before I had a consistent spread eagle on ice, I waited for buses in that position. It did translate nicely for me without being in skates.

The only time I did off-ice eagle in skates it felt harder to balance (lack of speed), but bauers were usually fine - using them to stretch the back while waiting at the boards for zamboni to finish.

[spiralina]

Friction will hold your feet in turnout off ice, but on ice you need muscle strength too to keep them turned out as blades will go path of least resistance! I had/still just have 170-180 as a dancer, but my spread eagles and bauers are *horrible*

[Doubletoe]

You need both flexibility and technique for the outside spread eagle on the ice.  For flexibility, do plies at the boards on the ice, with your feet turned out and pushed up against the base of the boards and the insides of your knees pressed against the boards.  As you very slowly straighten your legs, push your pelvis forward against the boards and lean back.  I still do these for a few minutes before doing Ina Bauers or spread eagles and it makes it much easier to get into the position and hold it properly.

As for actually getting into the spread eagle position and holding it on the ice, here's the technique that was the breakthrough for me:  Holding onto the boards, turn your leading foot out, with knee bent and leaning a little on the outside of the blade.  Now turn your other foot out at a 45-degree angle, point the toes and bring that foot down so that the heel slides right into the instep of the other foot.  Notice how that foot slides right into 180-degree spread eagle position and turns out all by itself.  Now try it on the ice away from the wall, while moving.  To stay on an outside edge, pull your leading shoulder back and look over your leading shoulder in the direction of travel.  When you feel secure enough, push your pelvis forward and squeeze your butt cheeks together so your body is straight and you aren't sticking your butt out.

[drskater]

Wow!! What great insights and advice. Thank you everyone! Doubletoe--I'm going to try those exercises right away.

[Doubletoe]

Wow!! What great insights and advice. Thank you everyone! Doubletoe--I'm going to try those exercises right away.

So how did it go?  Any progress yet?

[drskater]

YES! You give such great advice (hint hint to other people reading this). I worked by the wall and was able to get the position fairly easily. I'm now at the scoot-along-the wall stage. It's great practice because it's making me feel more confident. Working up my nerve right now to  try it away from the wall.

[sk8Joyful]

You need both flexibility and technique for the outside spread eagle on the ice.  
For flexibility, do plies at the boards on the ice, with your feet turned out and pushed up against the base of the boards and the insides of your knees pressed against the boards.  
As you very slowly straighten your legs, push your pelvis forward against the boards and lean back.  I still do these for a few minutes before doing Ina Bauers or spread eagles and it makes it much easier to get into the position and hold it properly.

Hi again,
During my 1st. ever Ballet-class (2 yrs. ago), I told the prof. Ballerina that an Outside spread eagle was one of my many ice-goals.
The other skater, knowing me as a beginner, laughed out loud. - The teacher had me demonstrate my position, at the bar by the wall, & I did so with ease,
at slightly over 180-degrees. The teacher said: "Heck, you could do this now. Good! for you" - the other 23 yr. young skater, sans that flexibility now, stopped laughing.

As for actually getting into the spread eagle position and holding it on the ice, here's the technique that was the breakthrough for me:  
Holding onto the boards, turn your leading foot out, with knee bent and leaning a little on the outside of the blade.  
Now turn your other foot out at a 45-degree angle, point the toes and bring that foot down so that the heel slides right into the instep of the other foot.
Notice how that foot slides right into 180-degree spread eagle position and turns out all by itself.

Why do we do that? - Away from the boards? - I'm asking as last Tuesday, a junior-level skater observed me practice them by the barrier, and
she said the same thing the Ballet-teacher earlier observed. But she had me get into the position right away; and add the Lean, which I did, "too far" she said.

Now try it on the ice away from the wall, while moving.  
To stay on an outside edge, pull your leading shoulder back and look over your leading shoulder in the direction of travel.  
When you feel secure enough, push your pelvis forward and squeeze your butt cheeks together so your body is straight and you aren't sticking your butt out.

okay I got the "your body is straight" alright; but as I moved the blades about 6 inches from the barrier, they slipped out from underneath me. Ooops!  
Now obviously I can't command a Freestyle-cut yet! - I have the cut next to it, & yes my blades are sharp, so obviously it's a matter of learning...
1. how much to LEAN, plus
2. how much to dig the blades in, so they behave themselves, are both right? - The skater said: "You've got the Basics down right just keep practicing"

They say that "Practice makes perfect"; but I don't think so. I think it's more like PERFECT-practice makes perfect..., and
as a Beginner, my perfect is likely very different than all you experienced perfects, yet I want to succeed too.

So, what suggestions can you add at this juncture, so the Blades stay where they are supposed to... Thank you!

[Doubletoe]

Don't lean back, just squeeze your butt cheeks together and push your pelvis forward.  The more speed you have, the easier it will be, but of course you need to feel secure on your blades before you try to get into a spread eagle with speed. . .

[sk8Joyful]

Don't lean back, just squeeze your butt cheeks together and push your pelvis forward.

I'm confused, because the Junior-skater, plus 4 Adult-skaters, watching me all said "to Lean back". - which I promptly did,
after which the blades slipped, erm.  

Also I've been told, for 2 other skills "push your pelvis foward": HOW? - are there exercises... for this girl  

The more speed you have, the easier it will be,
but of course you need to feel secure on your blades before you try to get into a spread eagle with speed. . .

Again I'm confused, re this "Speed"-advice, as the Junior-skater, on-ice from a complete stand-still, easily Stepped into the position.

previously assuming it took lots! of speed, I was Pleasantly-surprised witnessing her Simply STEP into her spreadEagle

Course, now the question is: How (sooner than later) can I duplicate this too? - Suggestions?

[fsk8r]

I'm confused, because the Junior-skater, plus 4 Adult-skaters, watching me all said "to Lean back". - which I promptly did,
after which the blades slipped, erm. 

Also I've been told, for 2 other skills "push your pelvis foward": HOW? - are there exercises... for this girl 
Again I'm confused, re this "Speed"-advice, as the Junior-skater, from a complete stand-still, easily Stepped into the Spread-eagle position.

previously assuming it took lots! of speed, I was Pleasantly-surprised to witness her Simply STEP into this position; course she also practices Ballet.

Course, now the question is: How (sooner than later) can I duplicate this too? - Suggestions?

With regards to pushing the pelvis forward versus leaning back, I find that different people will focus on a different part of the body to adjust to get the desired position. I would suggest that both recommendations are right. I would be wanting to lean back as I push my pelvis forward to keep my balance. I would play around with the position in front of the mirror and try adjusting pelvis and back arch and seeing the affects they have on the feel of the spreadeagle.

[sk8Joyful]

With regards to pushing the pelvis forward versus leaning back,
I find that different people will focus on a different part of the body to adjust to get the desired position.
I would suggest that both recommendations are right.
I would be wanting to lean back, as I push my pelvis forward to keep my balance.
I would play around with the position in front of the mirror and
try adjusting pelvis and back arch, and seeing the affects they have on the feel of the spreadeagle.

probably wouldn't help for the rink   to coat 1-3 of the Hockey-panels, with mirror-like substances, as watching then might throw our balance off.

Thanks for your response, about Learning things 1st. in the mirror OFF-ice, better. - I haven't given mirrors much thought, til now.

Fairly new to trying Spread-eagles, gonna keep playing with it, til I'm successful.   dr.Skater, how are yours progressing

[FigureSpins]

I faked an outside spreadeagle on Monday (all my weight was on one foot) and my kids/students went crazy.  "We didn't know you could do one of those!"  I didn't enlighten them that I was faking it, snicker.  "Never mind what I can do - you ladies get to work!"

I'm pushing fifty, it's time for me to teach, not do! roflol!  (At least, not without proper training and stretching. )  Almost every one of my students can do spreadeagles, so I teach them well.  

I have a decent inside spreadeagle, but I don't like doing bauers-they hurt my weak knee and never quite got the hang of an outside spreadeagle myself.  Like I said, I can fake it.

I use the hockey glass mirror all the time for teaching and I *love* the fact that our current rink papers over the glass at one end.  They do it to make the storage/workout spaces more private and the rink more festive, but the reflection is so useful.  It's really important for Bauers - you should be traveling on a straight line, so using a hockey line makes a lot of sense.  If you don't have a glass reflection to focus on in your direction of travel, focus on the wall stripe at the end of the line.  If a skater turns their head, it helps keep the upper body checked properly.

Stretching regularly after you've warmed or skated, is critical.  You have to stretch while your muscles are warm.  Stretch gently and hold the stretches for 30-40 seconds each.

Initially, I have the skaters use the waist-high rink railing as a barre'
They stand in the plie' position and actually do a few slow plie's to get the feeling of turnout in the hips and knees.  
Then I have them practice the leaning - they hold onto the railing, feet splayed, and press their belly-buttons towards the railing.  

We repeat this on the ice using the dasher boards, then try a few pull-alongs.  

They have to also work on inside spreadeagles - it's part of their on-ice cooldown.
The only skaters who can pick up a Bauer or outside eagle easily are those with great natural turnout.
Most skaters have to develop their turnout (which does have a natural limit) and also build the muscles needed to control it.
So, lots of inside spreadeagles are vital.

The next step is to skate in a deeply-bent knee position on as straight a line as possible.  It's not enough to squat, they have to press forward with the hips.  Gradually, as those muscles build, they'll be able to stand up more and more with straighter knees, but it takes a long time.  

It's much easier, in the squatting position, to do the change-edge onto outside edges.

Some skaters never get a pretty outside spreadeagle - they just can't straighten and press forward with their hips and hold the shoulders open to the back.  Some of it is trust in their own edges - they have to be brave enough to lean back into the circle.  Having someone "spot" them (ie. skate behind and provide support or fall protection) helps, but if your hips just can't do that, you'll be stuck in the butt-out position.  

One thing to try off-ice is using a balance ball - lay across it so your hips are raised to the ceiling and your shoulders are pressed back towards the floor.

[fsk8r]

Figurespins thanks for a detailed breakdown of the progression you use for teaching it. I believe I can develop enough natural turnout for an outside spreadeagle but currently don't have the muscle strength to control it on the ice. It's nice to learn that just practicing with bent knees and an inside spreadeagle will help develop that strength and I can keep working on turnout off the ice to aim at a stronger outside spread position or even just a nice ina bauer position.

[FigureSpins]

I have one skater who doesn't practice inside spreadeagles or Bauers.  I really think it's holding her back from progressing on these. 

Just because the skater can travel on an outside edges doesn't mean they're doing an outside spreadeagle; the body line has to be correct as well.  The bent-ankle, knee, waist-break position with the butt sticking out position has very few uses in skating programs than an upright inside spreadeagle or straight-line Bauer.

[drskater]

Fairly new to trying Spread-eagles, gonna keep playing with it, til I'm successful.   dr.Skater, how are yours progressing

Good stuff!!! Right now I'm doing everything that FigureSpins and Doubletoe advise, mainly because my coach tells me to do exactly the same thing! (Hmmm, FigureSpins, are you my coach's long lost twin? )
I'm still at the inside edge stage but am feeling increasingly confident about improving this element. I'd like to put together an artistic program for the spring so I hope to be able to include Bauer by then!

[Doubletoe]

FigureSpins, you make a good point.  Inside spread eagles can be just as impressive as outside spread eagles when done well!  In fact, I think I've gotten more compliments on my inside one, just because so few people do them and really highlight them.  The more you can push your pelvis forward while leaning back, the more beautiful your inside spread eagle will be (and the more turnout you will need to have).  Check out Jonathan Cassar's famous inside spread eagle at 2:35 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL0ma82TCwA

[kayskate]

IMO, part of what makes this spread eagle in the vid so impressive is his position leaning forward w arms overhead. He also hold the position for a long time and the move progresses on a wide arc, so is hips are very open. Many ppl will do an inside eagle w/o hips so open so the circle is very small.

Kay

[FigureSpins]

That is a beautiful inside spreadeagle - note that he's pushing his bellybutton forward, lol.
I use that cue to teach "open your hips" for spreadeagles.

[Doubletoe]

IMO, part of what makes this spread eagle in the vid so impressive is his position leaning forward w arms overhead. He also hold the position for a long time and the move progresses on a wide arc, so is hips are very open. Many ppl will do an inside eagle w/o hips so open so the circle is very small.

Kay

If you look closely, you'll see he's actually leaning back with his torso to counterbalance the forward lean from the pelvis down.

[jjane45]

Is there any off-ice exercise for stepping into an ina bauer from back crossovers? (left leading leg) This entry is such a speed killer...

[sk8Joyful]

I faked an outside spreadeagle on Monday (all my weight was on one foot) and my kids/students went crazy.  "We didn't know you could do one of those!"  
I didn't enlighten them that I was faking it, snicker.  "Never mind what I can do - you ladies get to work!"

I'm pushing fifty, it's time for me to teach, not do! roflol!  (At least, not without proper training and stretching. )  Almost every one of my students can do spreadeagles, so I teach them well.  

I have a decent inside spreadeagle, but I don't like doing bauers-they hurt my weak knee and never quite got the hang of an outside spreadeagle myself.  Like I said, I can fake it.

Hi there,
THANK you so much for your detailed... explanations, & kind suggestions; and I'm sorry you hurt your knee - from your injury, isn't it possible? to heal...
Also when you said you're 'pushing 50'; where does that leave us?, a few days further down the road. - Are you saying it's no longer possible? - Lord, I have all these goals
Well,
I'm just gonna keep telling myself, I'm a beautiful 23 yr. young kid, lol

for Bauers - you should be traveling on a straight line, so using a hockey line makes a lot of sense. 
If you don't have a glass reflection to focus on in your direction of travel, focus on the wall stripe at the end of the line.  If a skater turns their head, it helps keep the upper body checked properly.

I can't quite get myself, to WANT to skate a 'Bauer'; don't get me wrong, they LOOK splendid on other skaters; but it just don't lick me on the nose, maybe later.

Stretching regularly after you've warmed or skated, is critical.  You have to stretch while your muscles are warm.  Stretch gently and hold the stretches for 30-40 seconds each.

Don't laugh now; but I used to wonder - What are these little girls: Running...around the rink for?, & twirling-around fast...?, and
Jump-roping?, and why are they Skipping, so High...? - I asked my daughter, who skated before me: isn't that a waste of ICEtime, Sweety?
um, she said:
"No mom, they are Warming-up, so they can skate their beautiful Spirals, & Spins, & Jumps; that you can & will learn someday too What a sweetest & Inspirational kid she was.

Well, I am just getting into this idea... of Stretching..., or Warming-UP, before the ice, let alone after practice.

Initially, I have the skaters use the waist-high rink railing as a barre'
They stand in the plie' position and actually do a few slow plie's to get the feeling of turnout in the hips and knees.  
Then I have them practice the leaning - they hold onto the railing, feet splayed, and press their belly-buttons towards the railing.

So far, so good. - Except, I just get on the ice, "hold onto the railing, feet splayed, and press belly-button towards the railing."  

We repeat this on the ice using the dasher boards, then try a few pull-alongs.  

I'm confused: isn't the waist-high rink railing, & the yellow dasher-boards, the SAME thing? - And yes, I can pull myself along just fine.

My challenge comes, when I let go... LOL - How do we get our Blades to STAY-put underneath?? us

They have to also work on inside spreadeagles - it's part of their on-ice cooldown.

Aren't them INside spreadeagles even harder? - No? - I keep falling towards the circle, trying to skate them. Hm, another thing to learn...

The only skaters who can pick up a Bauer or outside eagle easily are those with great natural turnout.

Most skaters have to develop their turnout (which does have a natural limit) and also build the muscles needed to control it.
So, lots of inside spreadeagles are vital.

So you are saying, that INside spreadeagles, are Vital? - to learning OUTside spreadeagles, did I get that right?

The next step is to skate in a deeply-bent knee position on as straight a line as possible.  It's not enough to squat, they have to press forward with the hips.  Gradually,
as those muscles build, they'll be able to stand up more and more with straighter knees, but it takes a long time.  

It's much easier, in the squatting position, to do the change-edge onto outside edges.

Oooh, I am so GLAD you said this: as last month, (the 2nd. week) I had 4 Adult-skating friends observe me do this: as I start INSTINCTively in the Squatting-position,
as I have, since the last time I hurt my Right-knee, doing this. - So, I think it's really important that I respect my mind's/body Messages...
but
this one lady (who's competed at AN for years) told me to "STRAIGHTEN knees, right now" - Erm, yes I CAN, & DO Straighten my knees WHEN they are ready,
which they were NOT, at that very moment. ..........but I aim to PLEASE, so I Forced  my R-knee (which said: You'll live to regret! this);
and sure enough! - it moaned, it whined, and then I limped in no uncertain, sheer PAIN, for the last 3 weeks. - Um, apparently what my body tells me, is more important.

so, Thank you for saying, that it's quite Alright, to Momentarily start-out in the Squatting-position; But yes, Normally I CAN, & DO Straighten my knees in this OUTside spreadeagle position.

Some skaters never get a pretty outside spreadeagle - they just can't straighten, and press forward with their hips, and hold the shoulders open to the back.
Some of it is trust in their own edges -
they have to be brave enough to lean back into the circle.  Having someone "spot" them (ie. skate behind and provide support or fall protection) helps, but if your hips just can't do that, you'll be stuck in the butt-out position.  

One thing to try off-ice is using a balance ball - lay across it so your hips are raised to the ceiling and your shoulders are pressed back towards the floor.

OK, so I leaned BACK alright; so far that my blades went flying... but I know, that I also have Posture-issues, bad: & I'm doing all I can to Correct that too.

I take great Encouragement... from my daughter, + the Ballet-teacher who enjoyed helping me (however briefly), + my Skating-friends, + my own enthusiasm as I choose
Believing that Yes, I can & will learn a "pretty outside spreadeagle: - And when you have more suggestion for me, please FEEL FREE to share them. -
I don't want to hog dr.Skater's thread here, so you can share them in my Skating Joyfully thread... THANK you so much!

[Sierra]

As for actually getting into the spread eagle position and holding it on the ice, here's the technique that was the breakthrough for me:  Holding onto the boards, turn your leading foot out, with knee bent and leaning a little on the outside of the blade.  Now turn your other foot out at a 45-degree angle, point the toes and bring that foot down so that the heel slides right into the instep of the other foot.  Notice how that foot slides right into 180-degree spread eagle position and turns out all by itself.  Now try it on the ice away from the wall, while moving. 

I tried this- I don't think I did it right, because it didn't seem to work. I can do outside spreadeagles and Ina Bauers while holding onto the wall, but can't seem to figure out how to do them while moving.

[Doubletoe]

OK, so I leaned BACK alright; so far that my blades went flying... but I know, that I also have Posture-issues, bad: & I'm doing all I can to Correct that too.

You don't *really* lean back.  What you do is push your pelvis or belly button forward while also squeezing your butt cheeks together and squeezing your shoulder blades together.  This will create a stiff, straight body that supports you as you are in your inside or outside spread eagle (it's the same body position for each one; it's just the edge that makes you look like you're leaning back or leaning forward).

I tried this- I don't think I did it right, because it didn't seem to work. I can do outside spreadeagles and Ina Bauers while holding onto the wall, but can't seem to figure out how to do them while moving.

Are you looking in the direction of travel or are you looking down at your feet?  In order to stay on an outside edge, it really helps to pull your leading shoulder back and look over that shoulder in the direction you're headed.