Parents of Skaters or Skaters that started young....

[jlspink22]

Ok some background JUST to give you an idea of where we are at. Daughter (just turned 5 two weeks ago) started skating in February, on public for fun only - self taught through Snowplow Sam 3. Her first group coach held her at Snowplow Sam 3 pretty much for age and needing more work on "perfecting" said skills. Later we switched to a different rink, and eventually got a private coach 1x/week on top of groups.  Ironically, her group coach is also coached by my daughters private coach, which is great because they can both chat and know what she needs work on.

Anyways - coaches and I tossed around the idea of doing a basic skills competition, depending on how well she was doing. She knows her skills up to a Basic 4/5 and she does them well for just turning 5. BUT she's not "competition ready" just yet. Again, she is 5 so to her, she's not interested in "perfecting" things right now, she just wants to learn and skate and dance on the ice. She likes performing so we think it would be better to do the club ice shows first, get her feet wet, and then revisit the competition thing later.


So now here's my dilemma - In the group lessons, they don't expect the kids to be perfect to pass, as long as they demonstrate the skills fairly ok. That being said, she can pass Basic 4 easily, probably even Basic 5 at this point. But her current program is Basic 2, so they want to hold her back on paper or she won't be able to compete at Basic 2. My daughter is not going to understand how the kids who are not even as close to as good as she is are getting badges and she's not. I'm trying to prep her for it, explaining her they want her to practice more. In private they work on everything from Basic 2-8. The coaches are going to talk but I really would rather hold her back in Basic 5/6 until she is ready to compete than Basic 4 since she will probably get a higher level routine in the spring. I know this sounds ridiculous but I'm not sure if I should push for her to be passed so she can work with the older girls or let them hold her back because of a competition that may or may not happen.

[twinskaters]

I'm a little confused, but it sounds like you need to decide whether you and she want to compete now or later. Is she actually interested in competing or not? I know kids who are more advanced/better skaters than my kids and they're just not really into competing. My kids got their whole introduction to figure skating by watching a friend's competition (Snowplow Sam 2 - she could barely move but OMG so cute) and for both of them, the goal has always been to compete. Even so, it takes some pointed conversations to get them to understand that good enough to pass the level isn't the same as good enough to do well in competition. And they're 8! 

If it were my child and she wasn't particularly fired up to compete, I would let her continue learning and progressing through the levels as they come. Her private coach should be working with her on refining all her skills, so when she is mentally ready to compete she will be skills-ready, too.

[jlspink22]

Yes, my daughter wants to be Gracie Gold when she is older, but right now she could give two hoots about competing and I think its because she hasn't even been to one yet to know what its about.

And her coach does work on refining what she knows, and as time goes on, she starts doing those things naturally. But I don't want to overstep the coaches by telling them I want her passed to keep her motivation up until she is a bit older to understand that not everything comes in one 6 week session. I expect that when she gets to Basic 7/8 and early freestyle that she not pass in one 6 week session, but who knows.

[jlspink22]

And I also do not understand why they basically pass every kid up through the basic skills level until about 5/6 when they start to repeat when I guarantee you most of these kids are barely passing.... in her swim lessons the guy has handouts that say "DO NOT EXPECT YOUR KID TO PASS AFTER ONE SESSION!!!!" Drives me nutty.

[sarahspins]

And I also do not understand why they basically pass every kid up through the basic skills level until about 5/6 when they start to repeat when I guarantee you most of these kids are barely passing.... in her swim lessons the guy has handouts that say "DO NOT EXPECT YOUR KID TO PASS AFTER ONE SESSION!!!!" Drives me nutty.

I can tell you as an instructor, the skills start to get much harder around B5 - the backward crossovers and overall edge control on backwards edges (or rather, lack of) are really what hold a majority of kids up.  It's not that our criteria for evaluating really changes (however, I do have to say that EVERY coach does their evals a little differently - some look for more mastery than others), it's that the skills really are that much harder than what they encountered previously. 

As far as the competing at B2 when she has skills from B5, that's pretty simple - it takes time and a lot of work to prepare a program for competition.  Most coaches want to give a kid adequate time to master that program before a competition rather than chasing a moving target by constantly changing the skills they are doing in that program.  If you aren't worried about her competing then there's really no reason to hold her back - talk to her coach about that and make sure that you are both on the same page. 

[fsk8r]

Do you think it might be worthwhile for you and your daughter to go watch a basic skills competition to see if watching other people inspires her to want to do that? Also seeing the standard of a B2 and a B5 skater who competes will give her an understanding that what passes tests isn't what wins competitions. Then again, she might be more into the show aspect of the competition than the winning so starting at a higher level might suit her.

[twinskaters]

I can tell you as an instructor, the skills start to get much harder around B5 - the backward crossovers and overall edge control on backwards edges (or rather, lack of) are really what hold a majority of kids up.  It's not that our criteria for evaluating really changes (however, I do have to say that EVERY coach does their evals a little differently - some look for more mastery than others), it's that the skills really are that much harder than what they encountered previously. 

As far as the competing at B2 when she has skills from B5, that's pretty simple - it takes time and a lot of work to prepare a program for competition.  Most coaches want to give a kid adequate time to master that program before a competition rather than chasing a moving target by constantly changing the skills they are doing in that program.  If you aren't worried about her competing then there's really no reason to hold her back - talk to her coach about that and make sure that you are both on the same page.

Definitely agree all around here. My kids were working on Basic 5-6 skills but competed at Basic 3 because they definitely had not mastered those backwards edges and crossovers.

[jlspink22]

I agree there, especially stopping the tendency to dig the toe picks or lean forward! But some of these kids would fair better to repeat even B2/B3. I figured out early on that the more ice time my kid got the better she was, and the more consistent she became. Some of the other parents don't realize this though and blame the coaches when their kid isn't moving along quickly OR the kids don't get it and quit when it gets harder.




I can tell you as an instructor, the skills start to get much harder around B5 - the backward crossovers and overall edge control on backwards edges (or rather, lack of) are really what hold a majority of kids up.  It's not that our criteria for evaluating really changes (however, I do have to say that EVERY coach does their evals a little differently - some look for more mastery than others), it's that the skills really are that much harder than what they encountered previously. 

As far as the competing at B2 when she has skills from B5, that's pretty simple - it takes time and a lot of work to prepare a program for competition.  Most coaches want to give a kid adequate time to master that program before a competition rather than chasing a moving target by constantly changing the skills they are doing in that program.  If you aren't worried about her competing then there's really no reason to hold her back - talk to her coach about that and make sure that you are both on the same page.

[jlspink22]

I totally totally get that, but HOW do you explain to a 5 year old why she has to be held back on paper. You can only compete 1 level down from what is registered as passed is what I was told.

Definitely agree all around here. My kids were working on Basic 5-6 skills but competed at Basic 3 because they definitely had not mastered those backwards edges and crossovers.

[DressmakingMomma]

My daughter also zoomed through basic skills levels - until we decided to switch rinks. Then she slowed waayy down.

She went from basic 1-8 in less then a year. That rink passed kids up as soon as they could complete a skill, but did not require refinement - even when working with private coaches. It is a good rink for recreational skaters and they put on a fabulous ice show each spring. She did a competition while in B5 and placed last.

She became serious about skating, wanted to compete more, wanted to win, and was willing to work hard. We found a coach that stood out, started private lessons at a different rink, and dropped group lessons. She has a lesson 1-2x a week, practices 2-4x, plus takes an off-ice class. Since we switched a year ago, she has moved up one level - working on Freestyle 2 now. Her coach wants perfection and also doesn't just work on skills of a level but all sorts of exercises to develop beautiful skating. It was an adjustment for dd who was used to passing up levels quickly and her coach made her go back to relearn skills so she was skating cleanly. DD did one competition last year with our new coach and placed third and can't wait for her next competition.

DD gets frustrated, but we discuss why it takes so long to pass. "Do you want to place?" usually works because she does. That desire comes from her, not me, otherwise that conversation would be meaningless. I don't think it would work for dd to be in group classes with one coach passing her while another wouldn't - that would be confusing to her. But each kid is different and a 5 year old thinks differently then an 11 year old. Maybe competing at a higher level would be more satisfying to your dd right now then competing at a lower level and placing well. I know of another skater who is younger and loves to jump but doesn't care about winning. She doesn't always place well, but she sure loves to compete. Finding a coach who can take into account long term goals was important to us, and maintaining a love for skating was our first priority. Placing last wouldn't help that goal so we plan accordingly. That's what works for our dd and I'm glad to have a coach who is flexible.

[jlspink22]

This is exactly what I am feeling - except the 2 coaches know each other well and group coach will follow lead of private coach - so that is a win. I asked her randomly one day if she learned anything new, and this is AFTER we had the discussion that to learn big things we have to do little things REALLY well first, and she responded with - no I am making sure I do my best at the regular stuff so I can get really good. I'm telling you.... the things she shows me while we skate in public about foot position, knees bending, blade edges means my money is well spent with the private coach.

I am an ex-dancer, so we dance and pretend skate at home on the hardwood, and I explain the arms/graceful movements, point toes, etc to her. She also dances/goes to gymnastics (both non-competitive) 1X week each and she tells me she wants to keep going because it makes her a better skater (probably overheard me talking to hubby but she believes it really helps her).

The kid has heart, she is soooo happy when she is skating and I want to keep it that way for now - my husband thinks I should just drop the groups but I'd like her to stay in through B8.

My daughter also zoomed through basic skills levels - until we decided to switch rinks. Then she slowed waayy down.

She went from basic 1-8 in less then a year. That rink passed kids up as soon as they could complete a skill, but did not require refinement - even when working with private coaches. It is a good rink for recreational skaters and they put on a fabulous ice show each spring. She did a competition while in B5 and placed last.

She became serious about skating, wanted to compete more, wanted to win, and was willing to work hard. We found a coach that stood out, started private lessons at a different rink, and dropped group lessons. She has a lesson 1-2x a week, practices 2-4x, plus takes an off-ice class. Since we switched a year ago, she has moved up one level - working on Freestyle 2 now. Her coach wants perfection and also doesn't just work on skills of a level but all sorts of exercises to develop beautiful skating. It was an adjustment for dd who was used to passing up levels quickly and her coach made her go back to relearn skills so she was skating cleanly. DD did one competition last year with our new coach and placed third and can't wait for her next competition.

DD gets frustrated, but we discuss why it takes so long to pass. "Do you want to place?" usually works because she does. That desire comes from her, not me, otherwise that conversation would be meaningless. I don't think it would work for dd to be in group classes with one coach passing her while another wouldn't - that would be confusing to her. But each kid is different and a 5 year old thinks differently then an 11 year old. Maybe competing at a higher level would be more satisfying to your dd right now then competing at a lower level and placing well. I know of another skater who is younger and loves to jump but doesn't care about winning. She doesn't always place well, but she sure loves to compete. Finding a coach who can take into account long term goals was important to us, and maintaining a love for skating was our first priority. Placing last wouldn't help that goal so we plan accordingly. That's what works for our dd and I'm glad to have a coach who is flexible.

[jlspink22]

And the other problem with groups now is that most of the other kids are there to socialize and learn some, and have fun.

My kid is there to skate (this is her not me) and then during practice time she wants to practice while the other kids play around or goof around which leads to 5 yr old drama. 

[PinkLaces]

Have you paid the money for the competition? I am a parent of a skater (who is now a coach) and basic skills coach myself. If you feel her not getting a pass due to the competition is going to wreck her love of skating than don't do it. Believe me, plenty more opportunities for competitions in the future. My DD didn't do any competitions until FS2. Lots and lots of competitions after that first one.

Here's the thing about competing - your kid doesn't always win. Even when you and the coach both think they were better than the other skaters. It was a good learning lesson for my DD, but yours is 5 and still pretty young. You know her best.

[jlspink22]

Thankfully no I have not, and its in a month and a half and we are changing the music anyways. Little ones need music that have easy changes in tempo or breaks in the songs (know this from dance classes) and she is having a hard time keeping pace to her current music.


That is why when I see private coach tomorrow I am just going to suggest they pass her. She can do the skills well when you ask her too, but again she doesn't understand enough about competing yet as she has never been exposed - I already told him there is plenty of time to compete later.

Have you paid the money for the competition? I am a parent of a skater (who is now a coach) and basic skills coach myself. If you feel her not getting a pass due to the competition is going to wreck her love of skating than don't do it. Believe me, plenty more opportunities for competitions in the future. My DD didn't do any competitions until FS2. Lots and lots of competitions after that first one.

Here's the thing about competing - your kid doesn't always win. Even when you and the coach both think they were better than the other skaters. It was a good learning lesson for my DD, but yours is 5 and still pretty young. You know her best.

[twinskaters]

If she's having a hard time with the program and she's not asking to compete, I would absolutely sit this one out and let her continue to move up the levels as she gains skills. If you are interested in her competing in the future, bring her to watch the competition and let her tell you if she wants to do it. Some kids (mine) see it and instantly want to be that person out there all alone on the ice. Some kids are just the opposite and say no way, not me! There's way more to competition than skating skill.

[jlspink22]

Even I have trouble following her music and I am going on 31..... begrudgingly, we are using music from Frozen to appease her, but whatever....

That is why he wants to do a show first, to make sure she will get out there and perform. We might go to the competition in late November to watch.

If she's having a hard time with the program and she's not asking to compete, I would absolutely sit this one out and let her continue to move up the levels as she gains skills. If you are interested in her competing in the future, bring her to watch the competition and let her tell you if she wants to do it. Some kids (mine) see it and instantly want to be that person out there all alone on the ice. Some kids are just the opposite and say no way, not me! There's way more to competition than skating skill.

[twinskaters]

The show is a good idea. It's different but gives them an idea of what it feels like out there alone.

I'm curious what music she's having trouble with. You know there are like ten little girls using Frozen at every comp, right?

[jlspink22]

Under the Sea from little mermaid but without words. Most kids you see on YouTube have words to their programs in Basic Skills and again, dance experience over here - little kids are usually coached by the teacher behind a curtain in ballet (where there are typically no words) until they are about 5/6. Its takes some time to get that musicality/timing thing down....She actually is one of the better students for her age group in her dance class as far as coordination and memory for a routine goes....

So current program is fast paced, and the only changes are the addition of a trumpet at some spots, and then its clear difference for about 20 seconds where she does backwards swizzles. Its kind of hard to pace - so if she has 6 swizzles and she does not do them at just the right speed she ends up too fast or too slow.

And yes I "know" that there are ten routines to Frozen which is why we did Under the Sea. However, she wanted to do Frozen for the Christmas show and having a dancers background I was able to mentally figure out a 1:10 slot of music that already fit her current routine with minimal modification on my ride to work.

[jlspink22]

I have a partial video of him teaching it to her on facebook I can probably send it to you somehow if you are curious to see it.

The show is a good idea. It's different but gives them an idea of what it feels like out there alone.

I'm curious what music she's having trouble with. You know there are like ten little girls using Frozen at every comp, right?

[Neverdull44]

Forgive me if I don't understand the Basic levels.   Here are some thoughts.  First, can the program be redone to a Basic 3 or 4 and pass her up a level that way?  It seems to me that a few elements could be changed to make it into a 3 or a 4? That way, she gets both . . . a routine and a test(s) passing?      Or, can she be told that they are going to test her after the competition?   Then, at the beginning of the next group class starting, the coaches test her up levels /group classes then?  I've seen the coaches do this at our rink, moving skaters several levels during just one learn to skate session (in the case of a skater coming back to the ice).

Doing an element "a la carte" to pass a level is alot easier than doing it in a program where one is flowing from one move to the next.  I can do all my best moves "a la carte" and look impressive, but adding them all into a single routine is going to require a few months of everyday, hard practice.   A time will soon come when the testing turns into doing all the elements in a routine to music at a set time.  I think the small rink competition is going to give her and you a little glimpse for the demanding physical and mental nature of skating a routine.

Most little ones don't understand competitions.  They understand a pretty dress, parents making a fuss over them, and them having to try hard.  But, it's still play.  And, that's how it should be.  Let the kids have fun and be kids.  Even if she does a competition, call it a "dress up show."

The early tests and local competitions at this level are all about encouragement.  And, that's how it should be.   Until they are serious or the required elements turn into being technical for a good reason (solid backwards edges are vital to jumping and landing jumps), then the tests & routines will naturally turn into nitpicking by the judges.  Luckily, the kids are a little older by this time than your daughter, and they begin to understand it.  For now, she's going to get a pretty dress, a stuffed animal, and feel pretty darn special from doing the competition.   You are going to have a memory (and a video) that you will treasure for years.   That's something that Visa can't buy.

[twinskaters]

Under the Sea from little mermaid but without words. Most kids you see on YouTube have words to their programs in Basic Skills and again, dance experience over here - little kids are usually coached by the teacher behind a curtain in ballet (where there are typically no words) until they are about 5/6. Its takes some time to get that musicality/timing thing down....She actually is one of the better students for her age group in her dance class as far as coordination and memory for a routine goes....

So current program is fast paced, and the only changes are the addition of a trumpet at some spots, and then its clear difference for about 20 seconds where she does backwards swizzles. Its kind of hard to pace - so if she has 6 swizzles and she does not do them at just the right speed she ends up too fast or too slow.

And yes I "know" that there are ten routines to Frozen which is why we did Under the Sea. However, she wanted to do Frozen for the Christmas show and having a dancers background I was able to mentally figure out a 1:10 slot of music that already fit her current routine with minimal modification on my ride to work.

I can imagine "Under the Sea" being a little tough at 5. Honestly I am amazed when I see any of those really little kids compete precisely because it's so hard to learn and remember the whole routine. I can also imagine how hard it is to say no to Frozen at age 5. My grizzled 8-year-olds took it a lot better and settled for other Disney songs (Spoonful of sugar and A Whole New World, instrumental). ;-)

[jlspink22]

I can imagine "Under the Sea" being a little tough at 5. Honestly I am amazed when I see any of those really little kids compete precisely because it's so hard to learn and remember the whole routine. I can also imagine how hard it is to say no to Frozen at age 5. My grizzled 8-year-olds took it a lot better and settled for other Disney songs (Spoonful of sugar and A Whole New World, instrumental). ;-)

Luckily its just for the Christmas Show... LOL.

[Neverdull44]

I don't mind hearing Frozen and seeing another little girl skate to it.   It's her music and what she relates to.  It's a pretty soundtrack.   It's us who has the problem, not her.     Just keep exposing her to different types of music and dance.

[skategeek]

We got tickets a while back to Disney's Frozen On Ice, figuring we'd surprise our daughter (10) with it in November as a pre-Christmas treat.  Now she tells us she's tired of Frozen.  Oops.

[jlspink22]

We got tickets a while back to Disney's Frozen On Ice, figuring we'd surprise our daughter (10) with it in November as a pre-Christmas treat.  Now she tells us she's tired of Frozen.  Oops.

She has seen it enough times to memorize it (but kid has a crazy good memory), but not so much that she is tired of it. We spend too much time running to skating and dance class to actually sit and watch movies lol.

We are leaving for Disney World the day after the show and we have fast passes to meet Anna and Elsa... She better be interested still because I stayed up til midnight to get them.