Natural Talent vs Hard Work

jlspink22 · July 23, 2014, 12:34:51 PM

So I'm watching my daughter skate in her private lesson today working on crossovers (she's 4) and other basic skills and there's a little girl no older than 8 (maybe, I am guessing here) that is doing double jumps and crazy spins. But then someone once told me that young talent like that can blossom or it can become tough once puberty hits, etc.

But I'm sitting here and wondering if we are totally out of our league!My daughter met some Olympians today (her rink director skated at the Olympics too years ago....) I mean she just started this year (wants to compete eventually) and she is getting leaps and bounds better each week but I'm not going to put an almost 5 year old on the ice 20 hours a week.

Please tell me that if this is something she's really into that she can still compete even though I'm not some crazy foreign training camp mom here!

twinskaters · July 23, 2014, 04:01:36 PM

I'm not a crazy pushy skating mom and my girls are doing their first basic skills competition next month. Most of the parents at our rink are not driving their kids towards the Olympics, and are simply giving their kids the chance to work at a sport they truly enjoy.

There are some kids who skate once or twice a week (like mine at the moment) and some who are there nearly every day. Obviously the every day kids will advance more quickly, but I believe there's room in this sport for varying levels of commitment. Let your little girl enjoy herself and skate as much as you and she are comfortable with, and let the rest fall into place as you go!

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jlspink22 · July 23, 2014, 04:17:07 PM

We just joined the skating club so she has more opportunities to do things like perform as well. She wants to be a pairs skater lol. She likes when the girls are thrown across the ice and watch out if you hold her hand, she will slide down into death spiral position. LOL.

DressmakingMomma · July 23, 2014, 04:30:04 PM

My dd started skating late at 91/2 years old, and I sometimes feel like her opportunities to be truly competitive have passed. BUT, she does have some natural talent and a drive to be on the ice all the time. I figure she'll get to whatever level she gets to and I am just not going to worry about what that means in terms of competition. The lessons she learns on the ice, like overcoming challenge, continuing after you fail (and fall

), and working hard for something you want, will help her in all other avenues of life. I also love that there is an adult skating community that will be available for her to be a part of if she sticks with it for the long haul. To me, these are the benefits of having a child in this sport, more so then accomplishing a certain jump or spin by X age. My goal for her isn't the olympics or even a regional championship because I think that would rob her of the joy she experiences when skating. If at one point those things become her goals, then I will fully support her. For now I'm trying to keep a balanced approach to a sport that is really easy to feel a lot of pressure to push and get crazy competitive in.

twokidsskatemom · July 23, 2014, 05:19:09 PM

My kids started young. They have both had to work hard for things that might come easy for those who are more flexible or smaller . We have watched alot of kids who were better for lack of a word when my daughter was younger stop when things got too tough. Its took her 2 years for a fully rotated axle, and its taking that long for her D/A. The kids who beat her time wise in jumps, all have stopped.My kids still love to skate and know the hurdles have only made them better both as skaters and people. . I know of skaters who started late and have done well so age really isn't a factor.
I do feel hard work is more important than natural talent.

jlspink22 · July 23, 2014, 05:25:37 PM

This is the first thing we have put her in that no matter how many times she falls, she just keeps going. I would have loved to been able to take lessons when I was little but now I have the "fear" of breaking something! And yes, there are a lot of adult skaters that her coach also coaches. One is trying out for Disney on Ice and there's a few that do collegiate skating. I think its important to have something besides school (she's pretty smart, so not worried about that) that she can be good at.

And yes, some of those little kids look miserable. Too serious so young.

Clarice · July 23, 2014, 06:16:18 PM

One of my daughter's coaches believed that kids with loads of natural talent often lost interest when they got to the point where they really had to work to continue to improve, and that kids who had to work a little harder at the beginning more often had the gumption to go the distance.

My mother often said that no matter how hard you work at something, there was always going to be somebody who was just plain better than you without having to put in nearly as much effort.

I think the lesson in the end is to just enjoy the journey; the outcome will take care of itself.

AgnesNitt · July 23, 2014, 08:04:18 PM

I don't have kids, but I'm going to weigh in anyway.

She's four. It's a little early to be worrying about her being 'competitive'. You've got the stages where she wants to be a vet, doctor, nurse, policeman, ninja assassin, Santa's elf, and/or princess to go through. I wanted to be a ninja assassin princess with an undercover identity of an elf in the vet's office for Santa's reindeer when I was 4.

You should talk to her coach about how much time she should be spending on the ice.

At 4 why not let her just skate on public and have a good time. As she learns new skills she'll use them naturally.

And let's say that it turns out she doesn't have enough talent to be competitive. Why is that so awful? I rode horses from the age of 6 and showed them but I never made it to the A circuit. Does that mean the experience was worthless? That my parents should have cut their losses when I was 8 when it was apparent that I didn't have enough talent (and long enough legs) to go all the way? That they should have analyzed my every move always making a decision about how my life should go, rather than let me enjoy myself?

Finally, you're waaaay too obsessed with jumps. What if your daughter wants to go ice dance? Why are you worried about her jumps when she may go a different route?

Doubletoe · July 23, 2014, 08:40:57 PM

I agree with AgnessNitt!! Also, different kids progress in their skating skills at different rates, just like in everything else. Some are early bloomers and others are late bloomers. I know two girls who are both 13 now who started skating at the same time when they were around 4 or 5. For the longest time Skater A was just shooting ahead of Skater B in the skills. It was so clear who the national level competitor was going to be. . . until all of a sudden Skater B (who had been with a coach who kept pushing basic skills and correct technique instead of letting her move ahead in the jumps) got all her doubles consistent in one year, then got her double axel, and a year later her triple salchow. Skater A got an inconsistent double axel, then started growing and getting injured and is now falling behind.

You never have any guarantee that your kid will make it to the top of the competitive skating world, so the best thing to do is just make sure she's enjoying it and getting good physical fitness and life skills from the process. Even for the top skaters in the world, skating is not a good financial investment for the parents.

fsk8r · July 24, 2014, 08:08:18 AM

Hard work goes a long way in this sport. I've just watched a kid get more and more frustrated that she'd lost a jump. She'd grown, hit puberty and lost it quickly. She now has to work hard to get it back. This is her test as to whether she's got the determination to make it to the next level. She might not do it, but the life lesson of working hard is a good one for her to learn. Something's don't come easy, you've got to work at them.
I was told that Joannie Rochette (medalled at Vancouver Olympics) was the kid that worked hard. She wasn't the top skater growing up, but the one who plugged away at it. She just kept plugging away at it and eventually got that medal. It's not all about talent. Skating is very much a mental game, and at 4 or 5 you just don't know how has that side of it.

jlspink22 · July 24, 2014, 10:38:21 AM

I actually never planned on enrolling her in lessons until she was 6 because no one would believe me that she could do everything they taught in snowplow after a month. I took her to public sessions once a week for 2 months before even deciding to watch a lesson, and that is because I cannot teach her what she wanted to learn. She actually was upset I couldn't sign her up that day. The private lesson came about because she is 4 and can do what 8 year olds can do and was getting pushed aside by big kids.

Now that aside - you never saw a kid that your like wow! Holy crap! They are only X yrs old? I mean we see it in gymnastics, dance (we've taken those lessons too). If you don't have kids then you probably wouldn't be around the sports scenes enough to know that I am actually a relatively tame person. I'm not kidding when I say there are kids who are already on pre-team competitive gymnastics at her age doing tumbling. Its crazy out there.

And actually ice dance is pretty cool, and seems to allow skaters to be older (less about the teen scene) and more mature. She met these folks yesterday: http://pennyandnick.ice-dance.com/

ETA: I know this is freaking expensive. I only have her to worry about so I feel like its worth while to let her do what she wants to do so long as she's also doing well in school.

PinkLaces · July 24, 2014, 11:26:13 AM

Quote from: Clarice on July 23, 2014, 06:16:18 PM
One of my daughter's coaches believed that kids with loads of natural talent often lost interest when they got to the point where they really had to work to continue to improve, and that kids who had to work a little harder at the beginning more often had the gumption to go the distance.

My mother often said that no matter how hard you work at something, there was always going to be somebody who was just plain better than you without having to put in nearly as much effort.

I think the lesson in the end is to just enjoy the journey; the outcome will take care of itself.

I have 2 now college age kids that were involved in different sports and activities. One played soccer and by 9 was on competitive top level travel teams. I get what you are saying about parents being competitive and let me just say in the 20+ years I have been a parent, I totally agree with Clarice. I have seen it first hand. Many kids quitting when it got too hard especially if everything came too easy.

One of the reasons, I loved skating for my daughter was it didn't come as easy as many things in her life - academics, music, soccer. It was good for her to struggle some. While she had trouble with some skills - 2.5 years to land an axel - she had great musicality and performing skills.

It's easy to either be overly encouraged or discouraged by your kid's abilities. Yes, we all want to give them the best opportunities we can in life, but as parents we can over do it. I wouldn't worry about being competitive. There are competitions for all levels. My daughter was never competitive in a regionals/sectionals/nationals way, but she gained so much from skating. She enjoyed the group numbers in the ice show as much as her solos.

Follow your child's lead as how much she wants to skate. In a couple years her interests could totally change and that's okay, too.

jlspink22 · July 24, 2014, 11:31:15 AM

I danced for 14 years, since my mom put me in at age 4. So I know she may end up doing something else but I don't particularly see her stopping just yet. I just want to know that there are sane parents out there too.

WaltzJump413 · July 24, 2014, 08:07:25 PM

Quote from: fsk8r on July 24, 2014, 08:08:18 AM
Hard work goes a long way in this sport. I've just watched a kid get more and more frustrated that she'd lost a jump. She'd grown, hit puberty and lost it quickly. She now has to work hard to get it back. This is her test as to whether she's got the determination to make it to the next level. She might not do it, but the life lesson of working hard is a good one for her to learn. Something's don't come easy, you've got to work at them.
I was told that Joannie Rochette (medalled at Vancouver Olympics) was the kid that worked hard. She wasn't the top skater growing up, but the one who plugged away at it. She just kept plugging away at it and eventually got that medal. It's not all about talent. Skating is very much a mental game, and at 4 or 5 you just don't know how has that side of it.

Great thoughts, fsk8r! One of the reasons I love skating is the character and perseverance it teaches...

dlbritton · July 25, 2014, 03:41:54 PM

Quote from: jlspink22 on July 24, 2014, 11:31:15 AM
I danced for 14 years, since my mom put me in at age 4. So I know she may end up doing something else but I don't particularly see her stopping just yet. I just want to know that there are sane parents out there too.

Please do try to be a sane parent. I am going a little off topic but this still related to kids and overly pushy parents.

I was in a sailing regatta once and there were 2 teenagers, a boy and a girl, on Sunfish's (single person boats). Their father was also on a Sunfish and he spent the entire race hollering and shrieking at them about everything they were doing wrong. After a while I was tempted to just ram his boat to see if he would shut up. I figure those kids never set foot on a boat again once they left home.

I had a friend from high school who's son, when he was 8 or so, decided he liked a particular sport. The parents didn't push him in the sport but did support his efforts, traveling to meets, etc. Ultimately he took home several Olympic medals so all the work and sacrifice paid off.

Kids will ultimately decide what they really want and striving for something may pay off in many areas. I teach kids to ski and one of the programs is to prep the kids for the race development team. Besides basic skiing skills they also have to have a certain level of self discipline. I had one girl that was a constant discipline problem. She would just take off where and when she wanted, leaving the group and I would have to chase her down. Several "timeouts" resulted from those episodes. Then she decided she wanted to try out for the race team. All of the race coaches were very skeptical because her reputation was widely known. As it turned out she knew she had to behave to stay on the race team, buckled down and became a great racer. I was at a slight disadvantage because we had decided not to "ban" her from lessons, but would give her timeouts whenever she did misbehave.

irenar5 · July 25, 2014, 05:13:27 PM

I think it is very hard to say, looking at a 4 year old, what their future in figure skating would be. Talent is one thing, but then comes the discipline, and ability to take criticism and to work hard despite failures. There are competitions at every level (even basic skills), so she can participate in those, when she is ready!

I would let her skate as much as you are willing/able to take her and balance that with what the coach recommends. At this age and skill level, realistically, potential for injuries is minimal, so why not let her become very comfortable with the ice?
It is a slippery slope, though- when she becomes better, she has to practice more, because there are simply more things to practice! Next thing you know, you are sitting with the other moms every day for two hours at 5 am watching the kid jump and spin :-)

EricaDer · August 25, 2014, 05:28:33 PM

My daughter started skating when she was 5. We started with learn to skate lessons once a week. After about a year, when I saw that she had natural ability and loved the sport, we added on 1 private lesson per week. Over the years (she's now 9) we just increased her coaching, ice time, caliber of skates, competition participation, etc. as her interest and skills grew. She now skates 4 days a week, with 2 coaches and does 4-5 competitions per year (will be moving up to pre-pre next season).

She's become a gorgeous skater and still shows promise and tons of natural ability. Our latest move was to switch coaches and rinks. Will she go to the Olympics? Probably not, but you never know! But I do see her going very far in this sport. But really, at the end of the day, what matters is that she skates because it's what SHE wants to do, and thankfully we have the means to provide it for her. She's tried other sports, and dance, and every time it just makes her realize how much she prefers the ice. So skating has proven to be her one true love and so I encourage it.

We see lots of parents right where you are - they usually either get more involved over time (like we did), or the kids move on to new sports and the skating fades out. Either way, it's a fun sport and it's awesome that you're giving her access to it!

Now with school starting, I'll be the 5am mom sitting rink-side for early morning ice. Goodbye sleep, it was nice knowing ya.

jlspink22 · August 26, 2014, 11:43:26 AM

Someone said just let her skate and don't worry too much and I'm trying to just go with the flow. I should post a video of her "figure skating". It might give you all a laugh but she's happy right!

Loops · August 26, 2014, 12:13:55 PM

Post away, if your comfortable. I personally love watching little kids skate. They skate with their hearts first, and pure joy. Nothing beats it.

AgnesNitt · August 26, 2014, 12:25:35 PM

Quote from: jlspink22 on August 26, 2014, 11:43:26 AM
Someone said just let her skate and don't worry too much and I'm trying to just go with the flow. I should post a video of her "figure skating". It might give you all a laugh but she's happy right!

Make sure you post it in a private section of the forum, as this section is open to public view.

Loops · August 26, 2014, 12:29:02 PM

Quote from: AgnesNitt on August 26, 2014, 12:25:35 PM
Make sure you post it in a private section of the forum, as this section is open to public view.

Oooh AGREED!!!! I didn't note that this thread was in a public section. If you decide to post, deffo keep it in the private part.

jlspink22 · August 26, 2014, 12:58:22 PM

Under video vault I guess? Or somewhere else?

littlerain · August 26, 2014, 11:55:03 PM

Yes, video vault

Nate · August 27, 2014, 02:08:00 AM

Quote from: fsk8r on July 24, 2014, 08:08:18 AM
Hard work goes a long way in this sport. I've just watched a kid get more and more frustrated that she'd lost a jump. She'd grown, hit puberty and lost it quickly. She now has to work hard to get it back. This is her test as to whether she's got the determination to make it to the next level. She might not do it, but the life lesson of working hard is a good one for her to learn. Something's don't come easy, you've got to work at them.
I was told that Joannie Rochette (medalled at Vancouver Olympics) was the kid that worked hard. She wasn't the top skater growing up, but the one who plugged away at it. She just kept plugging away at it and eventually got that medal. It's not all about talent. Skating is very much a mental game, and at 4 or 5 you just don't know how has that side of it.

Joannie Rochette had 8-10 years to deal with Puberty adjustments, technique issues, and psychological issues with competing. A lot of elite skaters aren't being given that amount of time these days. They'd be out of the picture within 2-3 years of poor performances these days - if they even lasted that long - at least in markets like the US or Russia these days.

People have varying degrees of natural talent, often need more or less work on different things.

Best to just "ignore" the other skaters and focus on getting her type of training she needs to progress decently at her own pace towards the goals you guys have set.

jlspink22 · August 27, 2014, 10:57:33 AM

Right now my biggest challenge is her attention span and trying to talk to an almost 5 year old is like talking to a wall sometimes. IE she's hell bent on backwards crossovers but don't ask her to try forward (even though I've seen her do them). Oh and she prefers one side over, and she's stubborn as he**, but if you just "let her be" she will work on what she was taught and tune you out. Go figure.

Quote from: Nate on August 27, 2014, 02:08:00 AM
Joannie Rochette had 8-10 years to deal with Puberty adjustments, technique issues, and psychological issues with competing. A lot of elite skaters aren't being given that amount of time these days. They'd be out of the picture within 2-3 years of poor performances these days - if they even lasted that long - at least in markets like the US or Russia these days.

People have varying degrees of natural talent, often need more or less work on different things.

Best to just "ignore" the other skaters and focus on getting her type of training she needs to progress decently at her own pace towards the goals you guys have set.

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Natural Talent vs Hard Work