New Skate Design

[johnallocca]

Those who have followed my thread on "Follow Up on Bad Experience with Riedell" Know that I have sent my boots back to them because of a foot problem with high heels.

Below is a design of what I want them to do. Do you think it will make me lean backward? I haven't skated in 14 years, so I'm not used to any type of skate at this point.

http://skatingforhealth.com/papers/new_skate_design.pdf

John

[FigureSpins]

I would never use a low-heeled skate.  It makes no sense whatsoever for a freestyle skater because the higher heel facilitates balance over the ball of the foot for turns and spins.  That's one of the reasons that rec skaters' spins suddenly improve when they start wearing a higher-heeled freestyle boot/skate.  You'd need to redesign a blade as well because the balance point shifts backward on the blade if you lower the heel - it would be under the arch, not the ball of the foot. 

I don't think this would be good for anyone other than a pond or rec skater.  I would expect some hamstring issues to occur with low-heeled ice skates if they were used for anything other than skating forward and backward.

You should hang out with Query - he proposed making skates out of duct tape, lol.  This is just as "out there." (no offense)

Just a word to the wise: when you look at Edea skates, they appear to have very-low heels, but that's not the case.  Those skates are designed with the sole and high heel as well, but their "upper" comes down over part of the sole/heel so it appears to be very low when in reality, the thickness/height is comparable to that of a Reidell boot.

Reidells have slightly lower heels than Jacksons and Klingbeils.  I think my SP-Teri heels are around the same height as my Jacksons.

[johnallocca]

It is either low heel or no ice skating for me because of a problem with my right foot. Today, I skated with my inline skates without any problems. Inline skates don't have a high heel.

I've been hanging out with Query on another post about my problem. Basically, he said do whatever works for you.

John

[icedancer]

Does anyone remember the "coplanar" fad of the 90s?  I'm not sure but I think they had a lower heal with a blade to match (coplanar blades?) - I know some people who tried them but ended up going back to a more normal configuration.

You might want to ask the people at Reidel about that - I don't remember who made the boots/blades.  Maybe I will google it...

[fsk8r]

What sort of skating are you aiming to do?
I can understand where FigureSpins is coming from, but I think the real question is what you're aiming to do in your skates. Are you aiming to test and compete or are you wanting this to be a recreational activity to do when you can't get outside on your inlines?

Speed skates from my understanding are very flat and are more like shoes. To get over the ball of their feet they need to bend their ankles a lot more than figure skaters do. Figure skates by the nature of the boots prevent that. The design of the figure skating boot used today is based on the design the late Victorians used when the modern figure skating moves and techniques were developed. That doesn't mean that it's the only design which works for skating. Modern blades may be better suited to the boots they're being attached to, but if you're not aiming for tests and competitions, there's no reason why you can't mess around and work out what is possible on your modified boot and blade combo. It might be harder to do things like three turns, but if your goal is lap skating and the odd little challenge like learning to three turn, then if your feet are happier and you go into it understanding that skating coaches are unwilling to recommend this approach to their boots, I don't see why you shouldn't perform the experiment.

[johnallocca]

I competed in the past. Now, I'm 65 years old and I'm just looking to skate and have fun on the ice, if I can overcome the limitations of my right foot.

John

[icedancer]

Does anyone remember the "coplanar" fad of the 90s?  I'm not sure but I think they had a lower heal with a blade to match (coplanar blades?) - I know some people who tried them but ended up going back to a more normal configuration.

You might want to ask the people at Reidel about that - I don't remember who made the boots/blades.  Maybe I will google it...

I found what I was looking for - not sure it answers any of your questions but maybe if this person is still around and making boots you could inquire about your ideas for having a shorter heel but having a blade that would still function as a "normal" blade with respect to where the rocker is, etc.

http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/COPLANAR_SKATEBLADES.html

Good luck with your quest.  I bet you will come up with a good result in any case!

[johnallocca]

icedancer, Riedell said they will do whatever I need them to do, to get me boots that fit. I shipped the boots off yesterday. I didn't send them the design, just a request for a flatter bottom. I will talk to them when they get the boots.

John

[fsk8r]

I competed in the past. Now, I'm 65 years old and I'm just looking to skate and have fun on the ice, if I can overcome the limitations of my right foot.

John

Then I think if I were in your boots, I would do whatever I can to keep my feet happy so I can keep skating and having fun.
And you might learn more about the mechanics of skating by trying the experiment.

It might be worth talking to the guy behind the co-planar blades as it sounds like he understands something about the mechanics of skating so he might be able to give you an understanding of what might happen with your experiment.

[johnallocca]

fsk8r, I will call him on Monday.

Thanks for the idea.

John

[Bill_S]

I'm all for experiments that expand knowledge.

Lowering of the heel is different than the co-planar concept - which was a great idea up against a deeply-established manufacturing and distribution system. (Anyone remember the push to get the USA into the metric system? Same problem.) Co-planar blades and boots were made to simplify and strengthen the mounting interface, but from what I see, didn't change the skating position of the foot.

I'll be watching to see what happens here. John's gambling a bit, but that's what makes it interesting.

[Query]

You should hang out with Query - he proposed making skates out of duct tape, lol.  This is just as "out there."

Please don't imply that I currently advocate making boots out of duct tape.

It was a preliminary design, which did not pan out at all.

BTW low boots have a definite, even dominate place in the racing community, as do low athletic shoes for runners and XC skiers who race. But I think figure skates probably need more ankle support because the sideways forces are greater.

Co-planar boots are merely easier to mount, and easier to shift mount positions, provided that you find co-planar blades. They have little effect on the underlying physics or athletic motion. They are a great idea. But in practice co-planar blades are uncommon in the figure skating world, and are not made by the major manufacturers, so you would have to shim a lot to mount common blades on co-planar boots.

I encourage you to continue to develop your own designs. But if you can't afford mistakes, you may prefer to stay with proven designs, or with gradual evolution rather than radical paradigm shift.

[johnallocca]

Sometimes wrong things continue. An example is during the 1970's I was working on a new ECG machine. The prior technology distorted the ECG waveform in order to keep it on the paper by 0.1 Hz. I developed a technology to keep the waveform stable without distortion. The medical community wouldn't accept it because doctors were used to the distorted waveform. If the waveform standards change, they won't know what to do.

John

[amy1984]

I know you've already invested in the new figure skates, but have you thought of hockey skates?  If you're just looking to skate for fun and not looking to jump, they have a flat foot bed (inline skates use the same system if I'm not mistaken - at least, I had a pair of hockey inlines by CCM as a teen that were identical to my hockey skates except for the blade).  Hockey skates have come a long way... they can be molded (almost more so than figure skates) and the advantage is that they're much more commonly made for men and you could try on/walk around in several sizes and models to see how they feel.

Just a thought.  Hope you find something that works for you!  Certainly don't want to hurt yourself by cramming your foot into something incompatable.

[johnallocca]

Actually, I went to a hockey shop a few days ago. They didn't have anything in my size and said it takes 3 weeks to order something.

I also ordered the Riedell 830 SS Adult Ice Skate to try out.

John

[amy1984]

That's too bad that they didn't have anything you could try on Those soft boots look like they might be a good option.  I know a few people who use them.

[johnallocca]

I removed the diagram and replaced it with a link to a pdf document that provides a full explanation of the old and new design. I also added leg to blade angles, which doesn't change with the new proposed design. I believe this new design will prevent skating injuries. I'm beginning to believe that my current foot problem is related to the jumps I did in the past.

John

[sarahspins]

Does anyone remember the "coplanar" fad of the 90s?  I'm not sure but I think they had a lower heal with a blade to match (coplanar blades?) - I know some people who tried them but ended up going back to a more normal configuration.

I don't know that the heel height was much different with those, the difference was that the sole/heel were both flat (most boots have a curved sole) and on the same "plane".  Regular blades, the heel plate and the sole plate are not perfectly level, nor are they at the same angle.

[taka]

I don't know that the heel height was much different with those, the difference was that the sole/heel were both flat (most boots have a curved sole) and on the same "plane".  Regular blades, the heel plate and the sole plate are not perfectly level, nor are they at the same angle.

I don't think there is any difference in heel height at all. My coach uses the co-planar dance blades on a normal pair of Riedells - the soles/heel were sanded a little (just a mm or so) so they would meet the blade a little better but no other adjustments to her stock boots were needed. One of my friends has just started using the coplanar dance blade too with no adjustments to her boots at all - the blade was a better fit to the shape of her sole than my (non co-planar) blades were to my boots!

[Query]

I don't think there is any difference in heel height at all. My coach uses the co-planar dance blades on a normal pair of Riedells

I think all or most of the custom boot manufacturers let you specify the heel height, and they adjust the bottom of the boot to match.

Out of curiosity alone, who makes co-planar blades?

Skateology discusses them, and some people are selling the used ones, but I can't find them available new.

[taka]

I think all or most of the custom boot manufacturers let you specify the heel height, and they adjust the bottom of the boot to match.

Out of curiosity alone, who makes co-planar blades?

Skateology discusses them, and some people are selling the used ones, but I can't find them available new.

What I meant was that co-planar blades are designed for boots with a flat sole / heel combination rather than the slightly angled soles v heel standard stock skating boots have (as they are based on a walking boot style design). The heel height otherwise is no different. To the best of my knowledge co-planar blades and stock boots to suit them are no longer made. Co-planar blades were made by MK.

My friend got her blades from our rink coaches, who inherited a few of pairs of assorted new blades when a local blade sharpener (who skated at our rink) died a while ago. My coach got hers from the same blade sharpener/tech before he died.

[johnallocca]

Good news for me. Riedell makes low heel figure skating boots upon request. They said low heel vs high heel is a controversial issue. But, if it is requested, they will make a low heel boot. in my case, they will discard my old boots and start new.

John

[TDL]

Have to say that Riedell is impressing me by how hard they are to trying to make this right.

[fsk8r]

Have to say that Riedell is impressing me by how hard they are to trying to make this right.

Yes Riedell are looking like they're very concerned about customer service.

[PhysicsOnIce]

Good news for me. Riedell makes low heel figure skating boots upon request. They said low heel vs high heel is a controversial issue. But, if it is requested, they will make a low heel boot. in my case, they will discard my old boots and start new.

John

It seems that Riedell is doing everything they can to make this work. Have you considered going to their factory and talking directly to your boot maker? I might facilitate the changes, specially if their "low heel" is not exactly low enough for you. I just would hate to see them make another boot for you with a low heel that is not low enough.

Also, one question regarding your diagrams... I am not 100% certain that the weight distribution would remain constant by lowering the heel, ie you are going to have the weight over the wrong part of the blade. I think you will be too far back in the blade.  And the double axels you are seeing in-lines are not hockey skates, but PIC skates. http://www.picskate.com/