US Figure Skating Governing Council News

[Nate]

Could this all be in preparation for turning all the categories IJS?

IJS for all levels would actually be an improvement, one that I would welcome.

[techskater]

What is the rationale for this?

It makes scheduling for the chief ref a nightmare with people spread across 3 or 4 events.  Also, some events are very small and according to USFS, not cost effective to hold.  Also, there have been requests for new events and competitor committee said no more new events until others are pared down

[fsk8r]

IJS for all levels would actually be an improvement, one that I would welcome.

Come to Europe! Everything is IJS. It's very difficult to find a 6.0 competition these days.

[ChristyRN]

Could this all be in preparation for turning all the categories IJS?

Good Lord,I hope not! I can see the pre-bronze scores now--Win with a score of 5.2!   

[icedancer]

I was just about to reply to someone else, but your post is quite relevant.

Pretty much the same for me.  I've pretty much surrendered to those spirals.

Bronze is as far as I'll go.

But if I ever compete, I will be phenomenal at Bronze.

If not for those spirals, I can do pretty much everything on Silver and Gold without issue.

But I'm not in this for residual pain.  If I do moves on a session, I'm pretty much guaranteed to have a sore/weak left hip and lower back for the next 4-7 days.  Sorry, no can do.

So why not just test Silver (and presumably Gold) and just have suck-y spirals?  If the rest of the test is that great, maybe you would pass it anyway.

[Nate]

So why not just test Silver (and presumably Gold) and just have suck-y spirals?  If the rest of the test is that great, maybe you would pass it anyway.

I like being able to go through a week without the residual hip and back pain. The tests aren't that important to me at this point. I'm still improving and having fun without them

[icedancer]

I like being able to go through a week without the residual hip and back pain. The tests aren't that important to me at this point. I'm still improving and having fun without them

Oh I thought that it was the spirals that gave you the pain.
My bad.

[Nate]

Oh I thought that it was the spirals that gave you the pain.
My bad.

It is. That's what I meant. I'm not willing to hurt that much for that test. It's not that big of a deal for me, anymore.

Edit: After doing a bit of looking around I think I'll just switch to ISI and take their tests. The test progression seems a lot better than USFS and I'll still be able to compete Bronze or Silver USFS if I wanted, since I'll keep up my membership. There is hope!

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[irenar5]

It makes scheduling for the chief ref a nightmare with people spread across 3 or 4 events.  Also, some events are very small and according to USFS, not cost effective to hold.  Also, there have been requests for new events and competitor committee said no more new events until others are pared down

I wonder what makes them not cost effective.  The rink is rented for a certain price.  Do the judges get paid per event or per day?  What are the variable costs at ANs?   Besides, the more people enter different events, the more money the competition makes.

I personally think the light entertainment event should be held by level and not by level AND age.   After all, the focus is a lot  less technical.  It seems those events are more of an exhibition than a competition.  Same goes for some of the dramatic and interpretive events. 

[Clarice]

USFS judges don't get paid at all.  There's a per diem for expenses, but they don't get paid to judge.

[icedancer]

USFS judges don't get paid at all.  There's a per diem for expenses, but they don't get paid to judge.  Plus don't the IJS events need technical specialists and callers and all of that plus the referrees, etc.

Hotels, transportation and meals - if they have to fly a lot of people in, it definitely costs money.

Plus the IJS system costs something (at least when the clubs put on a competition they have to pay for the use of the equipment) - so yeah, it is expensive to run a competition of that scale.

[fsk8r]

Good Lord,I hope not! I can see the pre-bronze scores now--Win with a score of 5.2!   

Generally the winners in Prebronze get a higher score than I get in bronze. But the lower end of prebronze can be below 5.2...
Basically we all go from competition to competition aiming to get something else called technically (and keeping what we did have). There's kudos in having an IJS sit spin!
It's a great motivator (if you can ignore the demoralising number).

[Nate]

Generally the winners in Prebronze get a higher score than I get in bronze. But the lower end of prebronze can be below 5.2...
Basically we all go from competition to competition aiming to get something else called technically (and keeping what we did have). There's kudos in having an IJS sit spin!
It's a great motivator (if you can ignore the demoralising number).

Agree. The number doesn't matter. The protocol is what matters. But it's nice to actually be rewarded for having full rotation on jumps, correct edge take offs and better element quality or skating skills.

What I seen in the ordinal placements for adult nationals was a joke. IJS solves a lot of issues with the judging, IMO, even at the lowest levels.

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[TreSk8sAZ]

I wonder what makes them not cost effective.  The rink is rented for a certain price.  Do the judges get paid per event or per day?  What are the variable costs at ANs?   Besides, the more people enter different events, the more money the competition makes.

First, you have hourly ice costs. You must rent the ice by the hour, and in some rinks that can be quite expensive. This means you are renting ice for practice ice as well as competition ice. For ANs, this likely means all day for at least 4 days (2 sheets) for competition, plus practice on Tuesday and the practices during the week as well.

Next, you have to fly in officials. This means judges, music, accountants, tech specialists, etc. They have a per diem as well as airfare, hotel, etc. If there is no shuttle service by the hotel, you either need to provide it (which may mean renting a car or van) or they have to get rental cars.

You may have IJS equipment rental costs. You have judges gifts, competitors gifts, and hospitality costs if you can't get that stuff donated. You may need to pay for advertising and publicity. Then there are costs for the competitor's party as well.

If I recall correctly, entry fees generally go to US Figure Skating. I don't know if the host club gets a certain percentage or they get something outright, but I don't think the full entry fee goes to the host club because it's a US Figure Skating event.

[sk8lady]

I personally think the light entertainment event should be held by level and not by level AND age.   After all, the focus is a lot  less technical.  It seems those events are more of an exhibition than a competition.  Same goes for some of the dramatic and interpretive events.

I thought this until I watched several different levels of Bronze and Silver showcase events at AN's this year. While the focus is less technical, the best skaters tend to place extremely high. The oldest group--61 and up--could not have competed with the skaters in the 31 to 40 group.

[techskater]

Agree. The number doesn't matter. The protocol is what matters. But it's nice to actually be rewarded for having full rotation on jumps, correct edge take offs and better element quality or skating skills.

What I seen in the ordinal placements for adult nationals was a joke. IJS solves a lot of issues with the judging, IMO, even at the lowest levels.

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ijs isn't much better, frankly, and if it gets implemented at the lower levels, judges will have to sure through done painful attempts at leveled spins...

[fsk8r]

ijs isn't much better, frankly, and if it gets implemented at the lower levels, judges will have to sure through done painful attempts at leveled spins...

As someone who competes IJS at the lower levels, very few people attempt levels on spins. Most of adults are just delighted to get a basic sit spin called, and we're all struggling to get a camel called (it's very easy to have a marginal leg dip). The only level attempt people go for is the back spin (in any position), and a few broken legs, and possibly holding for the 8 revs. I think in actual fact IJS did away with the painful attempts at spins as no one is going to put a spin in which won't get called. I think there are possibly more painful attempts with the low level kids, but even there, they're disappearing. Skaters are very aware of PCS and GOE.

[Nate]

As someone who competes IJS at the lower levels, very few people attempt levels on spins. Most of adults are just delighted to get a basic sit spin called, and we're all struggling to get a camel called (it's very easy to have a marginal leg dip). The only level attempt people go for is the back spin (in any position), and a few broken legs, and possibly holding for the 8 revs. I think in actual fact IJS did away with the painful attempts at spins as no one is going to put a spin in which won't get called. I think there are possibly more painful attempts with the low level kids, but even there, they're disappearing. Skaters are very aware of PCS and GOE.

This.

I haven't been really enthused with the 6.0 judging I've seen. Will definitely hold out until I'm high enough for IJS or they implement it at Silver level.

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[tazsk8s]

I think there are possibly more painful attempts with the low level kids, but even there, they're disappearing. Skaters are very aware of PCS and GOE.

I think this is one of those things that varies by location. At my rink, none of the kids do a plain-old sit spin anymore, not even the no-test kids who are just learning them. They're all trying these crazy contortions and variations without any concept of the "basic" spin. Same was true of spirals before they changed the rules on those...the skate school kids in FS 1 all thought a spiral had to be done by grabbing the blade. I subbed once for the coach teaching FS 1 and the kids' minds were boggled on how a traditional spiral was done.

I'm kind of glad I'm not competing right now, and am probably Bronze for Life anyway. The feedback of the protocols is nice, but I'd be one of those people who would be completely demoralized by the minus sign in front of my total score. 

[Nate]

I think this is one of those things that varies by location. At my rink, none of the kids do a plain-old sit spin anymore, not even the no-test kids who are just learning them. They're all trying these crazy contortions and variations without any concept of the "basic" spin. Same was true of spirals before they changed the rules on those...the skate school kids in FS 1 all thought a spiral had to be done by grabbing the blade. I subbed once for the coach teaching FS 1 and the kids' minds were boggled on how a traditional spiral was done.

I'm kind of glad I'm not competing right now, and am probably Bronze for Life anyway. The feedback of the protocols is nice, but I'd be one of those people who would be completely demoralized by the minus sign in front of my total score. 

There is no such thing as a negative score....

What minus sign?

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[sarahspins]

ijs isn't much better, frankly, and if it gets implemented at the lower levels, judges will have to sure through done painful attempts at leveled spins...

I don't think so - because if they are poor enough they won't even get called as whatever spin you are doing, and then you gain no points at all from the attempt, then more focus will be placed on getting those spins good enough to get called, and that is NOT a bad thing.  You won't be able to get enough features to even get levels called if you don't have solid basic spins.

I can't tell you how frustrating it is judging a basic skills comp where everyone in the spins competition does weird sit spin variations - it's really hard to judge beyond "are they sitting" (some don't) and "did they hit 3 revolutions" (most actually don't), and honestly one well done PLAIN sit spin (low and fast) would easily help a skater win that event because it would actually look more impressive than what everyone else is doing. 

[Neverdull44]

Great, I'm all confused. 

Back in 2000, I passed Preliminary Moves in the Field and Prepreliminary Freeskate.  Back in 2000, I was next to take pre-Juvenile MIF.   When I came back to skating this past year,  I was told to go back and test for Adult prebronze. I  did and passed prebronze.   Today, I've ben practicing my Adult Bronze MIF!  I think I have it down perfectly, and was hoping to test this month but our club did not have testing. 

Let's see what's up. Looks like a repeat of one item, and two new items to learn perfectly.    And, they include spirals.  (The older I get, the harder a spiral becomes.  Can kill my lower back, causing sciatica nerve pain and absolutely no skating when that flares up.)  I really hope the "adult section" thinks hard about spirals at the bronze, adult level.  They are asking for two lengths of the ice, on edges.  That's alot of repeated leg lifting.

Preliminary moves in the field

Forward and Backward Crossovers                                   Done in Pre-Bronze Adult
Consecutive Outside and Inside Spirals   Diagram                 Not done in Adult pre-bronze or bronze
Forward Power Three-Turns   Diagram                                 Bronze test
Alternating Forward Three-Turns   Diagram                             Not done in adult pre-bronze or bronze
Forward Circle Eights (new)   Diagram                                              Bronze test
Alternating Backward Crossovers to Backward Outside Edges   Diagram   Bronze test

Anyone know of testing in Florida before June 30th?   Stock up on Ben Gay!

[nicklaszlo]

There is no such thing as a negative score....

As far as I know there is no limit on how many fall deductions someone could get.  Is there a minimum score rule?

[Neverdull44]

does weird sit spin variations - it's really hard to judge beyond "are they sitting" (some don't) and "did they hit 3 revolutions" (most actually don't), and honestly one well done PLAIN sit spin (low and fast) would easily help a skater win that event because it would actually look more impressive than what everyone else is doing.

I have that low and fast sit spin and I would enjoy just showing that off.  But, now, it's camel, sit, change sit that I'm mastering . . . all due to points.

[icedancer]

Great, I'm all confused. 

Back in 2000, I passed Preliminary Moves in the Field and Prepreliminary Freeskate.  Back in 2000, I was next to take pre-Juvenile MIF.   When I came back to skating this past year,  I was told to go back and test for Adult prebronze. I  did and passed prebronze.   Today, I've ben practicing my Adult Bronze MIF!  I think I have it down perfectly, and was hoping to test this month but our club did not have testing. 

Let's see what's up. Looks like a repeat of one item, and two new items to learn perfectly.    And, they include spirals.  (The older I get, the harder a spiral becomes.  Can kill my lower back, causing sciatica nerve pain and absolutely no skating when that flares up.)  I really hope the "adult section" thinks hard about spirals at the bronze, adult level.  They are asking for two lengths of the ice, on edges.  That's alot of repeated leg lifting.

Preliminary moves in the field

Forward and Backward Crossovers                                   Done in Pre-Bronze Adult
Consecutive Outside and Inside Spirals   Diagram                 Not done in Adult pre-bronze or bronze
Forward Power Three-Turns   Diagram                                 Bronze test
Alternating Forward Three-Turns   Diagram                             Not done in adult pre-bronze or bronze
Forward Circle Eights (new)   Diagram                                              Bronze test
Alternating Backward Crossovers to Backward Outside Edges   Diagram   Bronze test

Anyone know of testing in Florida before June 30th?   Stock up on Ben Gay!

So, this is confusing.

If you took the Preliminary Moves already - why not go on to Pre-Juv?  And if you have tested Adult Pre-Bronze - do you plan to take Adult Bronze Moves?  There are no spirals on the Adult Bronze Moves.

The spirals on consecutive edges are on the Adult Silver Moves test.

I know. Clear as mud.