Basic vs. advanced freestyle blades

[Loops]

Yeah, me too, I thought dovetailing and tapering were synonyms.  SarahSpins- that was a useful diagram.  I'm sure it took you a while to do it, too.  Thanks.

So it's all about weight as opposed to edge control (parabolic's aside).

And I agree, at this point I personally wouldn't skate on the MK dance, even though dance/jumpless synchro is what I'm doing.  The non-aggressive toe-pick scares me.......I was incoherently wondering why they didn't make a freestyle blade slimline like that.  But I guess that would compromise too much in terms of strength.  But then, am I misunderstanding slimline as well?  I assumed the WHOLE blade (stanchions and runner) were thinner- or is it side honed?

Hmmm, maybe I outta check out that Mr. Edge article that FigureSpins found.  When I read the wikipedia link FigureSpins posted I didn't see the effect on skating for anything other than parabolics.  K-picks weren't even mentioned now that I think about it....weird- maybe it's because I'm accessing from another country.

[sarahspins]

Only the lower 1/4" or so of the blade is thinner on a slimline blade, but the sides are still parallel in the thinner section.  However, your question made me wonder, and since I happen to have both a dance blade and a digital caliper handy, the blade I have measures 3.5mm wide (and is the same front to back), with the slimline section (the thickness you are actually skating on) measuring 2.5mm.  The one I have is an older (at least 25 years old) dance mode from back when they were still brazed.

[icedancer]

That said, I don't think any of the lower level dance/synchro blades share the same issues common to a lot of the higher dance blades (the shifted balance point mainly - dance blades tend to keep you on the ball of your foot more) - they really are just shortened freestyle blades, and some are shorter than others.

This is so interesting and explains why I have never felt comfortable in the MK dance with my relatively "new" dance boots - the balance point in the boot is further back I think than the balance point on the blade!  I tried today thinking more about being on the ball of my foot and viola! EVERYTHING was better.

Now I am thinking it may behoove me to get a heel lift of some sort (internal? external?) to help keep my weight closer to the ball... hence the rocker - of course my coach is always working on this from the "bend the hip, knee and ankle" perspective.  Now I think I know why she is doing this!!

That you sarahspins and skatingforums in general for providing answers to those endless "blade technical" questions - yea!

[Loops]

Sarahspins, you have some cool, and useful toys.

Thank you!

[sarahspins]

This is so interesting and explains why I have never felt comfortable in the MK dance with my relatively "new" dance boots - the balance point in the boot is further back I think than the balance point on the blade!  I tried today thinking more about being on the ball of my foot and viola! EVERYTHING was better.

It's possible, but more importantly than that is that we're all unique - both in terms of skating technique and anatomy, and what you just described is a perfect example of something just not working well for you, despite having been designed (presumably) to work well together for many skaters.  A heel lift may help, but it may also negatively impact the fit of your skate (relating to the shape of your heel and how it fits into the heel counter). It is however, an easy thing to try out

[Query]

I do believe the Phantom Special is ground THICKER at the bottom, not thinner at the bottom like MK Dance. I'm not sure about the Gold Star. (Of course, the side honing isn't done up the whole height of the runner - just the bottom portion that might be used to skate. I think they take a swipe on each side with some sort of cutting or grinding tool, centered something like .1 - .2 inches above the bottom.)

Incidentally, a skating manual from about 1920 talked about parabolic, tapered and vertically side honed blades too - and didn't come to any conclusions about whether there was a benefit. People have been arguing about these things for at least that long.

One thing that is clear - if a skate blade has any type of side honing that affects the bottom of the blade, it becomes a lot harder to sharpen well. Unless your sharpening pro is very, very good, it doesn't make sense to try blades with any type of side honing that affects the bottom of the blade.

And as far as the structural forms of side honing that don't affect the bottom of the blade, which shave off a few grams of weight, the Ultima Lite blades, in which the less important parts of the blade from a structural perspective are completely cut away, are probably even lighter.

The best sharpening pros around here say that it is good business practice to give customers whatever they want. If a customer requests side honed blades, that's what the customer gets.

[Loops]

Incidentally, a skating manual from about 1920 talked about parabolic, tapered and vertically side honed blades too - and didn't come to any conclusions about whether there was a benefit. People have been arguing about these things for at least that long.

I noticed that, too with the discussion on parabolics- I was wondering if it would be worth it (assuming my sharpener could handle them).  But it seems either one noticed a marked improvement, or doesn't notice anything at all.  In any case they don't seem to be detrimental. 

we're all unique - both in terms of skating technique and anatomy

I wonder how much of the potential benefits are more related to this ^ than what any physics prof might say.

[Query]

on parabolics- I was wondering if it would be worth it (assuming my sharpener could handle them).  But it seems either one noticed a marked improvement, or doesn't notice anything at all.  In any case they don't seem to be detrimental. 

Not sure about that - because some blades are shaped in the exact opposite manner.

Some people claim that parabolics make it easier to turn, and harder to track. Some people claim the opposite, that parabolics are harder to turn, but easier to track, and easier to "center", whatever that means.

MK and Wilson sell some skate blades that they say are supposed to be both parabolic (they use a different trademarked word for their patented form) and tapered - I have no idea what that means.

It makes a lot of sense that blade manufacturers don't explain exactly how blades are shaped. They don't want other manufacturers to copy them. Plus, it's harder to claim they did a bad job shaping a particular blade, if there is no published shape.

Oh, and to clarify: MK Dance blades and other slim-line blades are cut or ground uniformly thin near the bottom of the blade, so they keep the same width with successive sharpenings. Phantom Specials and some others are cut or ground at a slant or slight curve, so they get thinner with successive sharpenings.

[sampaguita]

Once you get used to them, it's really hard to go back down to a lower-level blade, so you have to spend a lot more money in the long run unless you really make the effort .  I'm on my 6th or 7th pair of Gold Seals; it adds up really quickly at $800 a pair.  I've tried to downgrade blades twice and both were frustrating and time-consuming efforts.

Why is it so difficult to downgrade? Does a blade downgrade affect technique?

[sarahspins]

Why is it so difficult to downgrade? Does a blade downgrade affect technique?

Effect technique, probably not, but there there are a number of differences a skater will pick up on, however they are subtle.  It's not as much of an issue of being unable to skate, as much as just generally being unhappy with a lower quality blade.  Some people experience the same thing just switching to a different blade model at the same level.  I would equate it more to being used to skating at a particular ROH, then having that change - it doesn't exactly make you completely unable to skate, but it may effect your performance and perception of how the skate feels.