IJS Protocols

[Kim to the Max]

I am looking at the protocols from regionals, and I cannot for the life of me remember what an "x" means next to the GOE. Also, "<" and "<<".

Thanks!!

[tazsk8s]

I am looking at the protocols from regionals, and I cannot for the life of me remember what an "x" means next to the GOE. Also, "<" and "<<".

Thanks!!

x = a jump done in the second half of the program.  They get a bonus for jumps done in the second half.

< and <<, I think those refer to varying degrees of under-rotation.

[twokidsskatemom]

X is 10 percent bonus late half of program
one < is less than 1/4 cheat
<< is more than 1/4 cheat
HTH

[TreSk8sAZ]

X is 10 percent bonus late half of program
one < is less than 1/4 cheat
<< is more than 1/4 cheat
HTH

Actually, less than 1/4 cheat is not a downgrade.

< is 1/4 to 1/2 cheat and is worth 70 or 80% of the value of the jump tried (I forgot which).
<< means the jump is 1/2 rotation or more cheated and is downgraded to the lower jump (i.e. double to single)

[aussieskater]

< is 1/4 to 1/2 cheat and is worth 70 or 80% of the value of the jump tried (I forgot which).

The < gives a base TES of 70% of the intended jump.

[jumpingbeansmom]

Where can I find a good scale of base values?   The one I found on Sk8stuff is not working out to what I would have expected looking at some of the regional results. 

My dd is going to do a 1lz 1A combination instead of 2lz this weekend-  her coach knows she can do this well and feels that she will get more points than when she under rotates her 2lz (which she does as it is new and she is cautious)-- it is also at the end of the program so I am trying to understand the base values. 

[Sk8tmum]

Here's the SOV that Skate Canada is supplying, which is ISU of course.

http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Patti/Technical/50%20sov%20table%20Singles%20072810%20RB.pdf

[fsk8r]

Here's the SOV that Skate Canada is supplying, which is ISU of course.

http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Patti/Technical/50%20sov%20table%20Singles%20072810%20RB.pdf

Or you can download the official one from the ISU website (sorry don't have a link). They've also got all the rules, which other than having been translated from English to French and back to English again, sometimes make some sense.

[Sk8tmum]

beat me to it ... here is the link to the ISU one.  It's communication 1611, and there is a lot of additional info. I just like the layout of the Skate Canada one, as it is simple and you can immediately see the < and << values without having to think.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-130127-131435-nav-list,00.html

[jumpingbeansmom]

Here's the SOV that Skate Canada is supplying, which is ISU of course.

http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Patti/Technical/50%20sov%20table%20Singles%20072810%20RB.pdf

That one jives-- thanks.  I can now see how they applied the 10% for jumps at the end of the program.   Also, do you know if they always apply 1.25 to juvenile level for component score?

[Sk8tmum]

Your "juvenile" is not our (Canadian) juvenile. Our juvies get all L1 on everything; aren't eligible for bonus; and for girls, have to be under, I think age 12 as of July 1/10. No open Juvie ... the program is 2-1/2 minutes in length.  Even our Pre-Novice don't get a bonus - and that's the next level up.

As for the PCS, we get different factors based on level, and it's all 4 categories ... and I'm sure it's different from your Juvie.

[blue111moon]

When you're looking for information on US Figure Skating events, I find it's best to go to the USFS site and look at the information that they give the officials. 

This is the USFS IJS page:  http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=289

Since the ISU doesn't conduct events down to the Juvenile level, USFS rules take over and are the ones to check. 

The Singles/Pairs page contains links to all the relevent documents that the panels use to evaluate the programs:  required elements by level, scale of values, spin variations, etc.  The only thing I don't see on that page is the factors table - it's part of Accounting Central which requires you to log into Members Only to access (I know, it's stupid to hide one chart there)  but I think the factors table is also part of the rulebook and possiblly the handbook that is linked on that main page.

[Doubletoe]

My dd is going to do a 1lz 1A combination instead of 2lz this weekend-  her coach knows she can do this well and feels that she will get more points than when she under rotates her 2lz (which she does as it is new and she is cautious)-- it is also at the end of the program so I am trying to understand the base values.  

Actually a lutz+axel is a jump sequence, not a jump combination (whenever a skater lands any jump, then does an axel right after it, it is a sequence).  Unfortunately, under IJS, any jump sequence only gets 80% of the combined values of the jumps (whereas a combination--where the second jump is either a loop or a toeloop--gets full value).  So your dd's lutz-axel in the second half of her program will be worth 1.50.  Here's the math:

1Lz  0.6
1A   1.1
0.6 + 1.1 = 1.7
1.7 x 80% = 1.36 (because it's a jump sequence)
1.36 x 110% = 1.50 (after 10% distribution bonus)

A double lutz would be 2.1 base value + 10% bonus = 2.31.  However, an underrotated 2Lz (base value 1.5 + 10% = 1.65) could end up worth less than 1.5 after the judges' -GOE's.

[fsk8r]

Actually a lutz+axel is a jump sequence, not a jump combination (whenever a skater lands any jump, then does an axel right after it, it is a sequence).  Unfortunately, under IJS, any jump sequence only gets 80% of the combined values of the jumps (whereas a combination--where the second jump is either a loop or a toeloop--gets full value).  So your dd's lutz-axel in the second half of her program will be worth 1.50.  Here's the math:

1Lz  0.6
1A   1.1
0.6 + 1.1 = 1.7
1.7 x 80% = 1.36 (because it's a jump sequence)
1.36 x 110% = 1.50 (after 10% distribution bonus)

A double lutz would be 2.1 base value + 10% bonus = 2.31.  However, an underrotated 2Lz (base value 1.5 + 10% = 1.65) could end up worth less than 1.5 after the judges' -GOE's.

wasn't there something in this years rule changes about using axels as second jumps in combinations?  I'm sure I saw something about it, when they were making half loops count as loops for points.

[Sk8tmum]

Actually a lutz+axel is a jump sequence, not a jump combination (whenever a skater lands any jump, then does an axel right after it, it is a sequence).  Unfortunately, under IJS, any jump sequence only gets 80% of the combined values of the jumps (whereas a combination--where the second jump is either a loop or a toeloop--gets full value).  So your dd's lutz-axel in the second half of her program will be worth 1.50.  Here's the math:

1Lz  0.6
1A   1.1
0.6 + 1.1 = 1.7
1.7 x 80% = 1.36 (because it's a jump sequence)
1.36 x 110% = 1.50 (after 10% distribution bonus)

A double lutz would be 2.1 base value + 10% bonus = 2.31.  However, an underrotated 2Lz (base value 1.5 + 10% = 1.65) could end up worth less than 1.5 after the judges' -GOE's.

Then I am very happy that Skate Canada does not follow this version of the ISU system; we certainly do NOT reduce sequences by any percentage; although, we do limit the number of them allowed, and of course the number of them in the sequence itself. 

[techskater]

Actually a lutz+axel is a jump sequence, not a jump combination (whenever a skater lands any jump, then does an axel right after it, it is a sequence).  Unfortunately, under IJS, any jump sequence only gets 80% of the combined values of the jumps (whereas a combination--where the second jump is either a loop or a toeloop--gets full value).  So your dd's lutz-axel in the second half of her program will be worth 1.50.  Here's the math:

1Lz  0.6
1A   1.1
0.6 + 1.1 = 1.7
1.7 x 80% = 1.36 (because it's a jump sequence)
1.36 x 110% = 1.50 (after 10% distribution bonus)

A double lutz would be 2.1 base value + 10% bonus = 2.31.  However, an underrotated 2Lz (base value 1.5 + 10% = 1.65) could end up worth less than 1.5 after the judges' -GOE's.

There is no longer a "sequence penalty" with the new 10% addition to jump combinations.  Sequences are straight up score now.

[Sk8tmum]

I do remember reading that they were going to add a 10% bonus to combinations, but, it was not passed by the ISU.  It's unfortunate ... but, such is life. At least in Canada, again, don't know how the US scores "stuff" we are not getting any bonus on the combos.  It's straight what is in the ISU scoring system, with, once you get to a certain level (I think Junior?) a 10% bonus for jumps done in the 2nd half of the probram.

[aussieskater]

There is no longer a "sequence penalty" with the new 10% addition to jump combinations.  Sequences are straight up score now.

If the judging panel is using the standard ISU IJS scores (and not say a special USFS one for lower than Junior), there still is a sequence penalty, and there is no bonus for combos - regrettably, neither proposal was passed by the ISU Congress in June.  The only change which was passed was to allow that a half-loop is to be counted as a loop in combinations.

[Isk8NYC]

This discussion reminds me of income taxes...

[jjane45]

This discussion reminds me of income taxes...

no kidding! And as intuitive as the tax code!

[Sk8tmum]

ISU Calculation Bumph:

In single and pair skating:
i. Jump combinations are evaluated as one unit by adding the base values of the
jumps included and applying the GOE with the numerical value of the most
difficult jump. The factored base value of the jump combination will be rounded
to two (2) decimal places
ii. Jump sequences are evaluated as one unit by adding the base values of the two
highest value jumps, multiplying the result by 0.8 and after that applying the GOE
with the numerical value of the most difficult jump. The factored base value of the
jump sequence will be rounded to two decimal places

You know, if we never had computers ... actually, funnily enough, one of the larger Canadian comps had both sets of computers crash and die, and they had to do this all by hand ... 8 hours later ... they released the first results - !

[Doubletoe]

wasn't there something in this years rule changes about using axels as second jumps in combinations?  I'm sure I saw something about it, when they were making half loops count as loops for points.

A few years ago, a listed jump + axel counted as two separate jump elements.  Then they changed the rules so that now a listed jump + axel counts as a jump sequence.  This change was already in effect last season, though, and I didn't see any change to this rule for 2011 (although, yes, the half loop now counts as a single loop rather than a connecting move within a jump sequence).

This discussion reminds me of income taxes...

Except that in skating you never get any of your money refunded, LOL!

[FigureSpins]

Except that in skating you never get any of your money refunded, LOL!

Too true!

I've been teaching all of my freestyle students half-loops because I really "get" that jump and I'd like to see it paired with a salchow for a combination.  I'm doing it at the risk of having them start two-footing their inconsistent loop jumps, but I've been switching back and forth to keep them thinking rather than practicing only one at a time.  While my skaters (all below Pre-Juv) will not be skating under IJS, word on the street is that the judges are looking for IJS-like programs, even under 6.0. 

[icefrog]

What is the difference between and ijs like program for under juv levels compared to a 6.0 like program?

[blue111moon]

There isn't one, at least on paper.  There are only the Well-balanced Program Rules that spell out what is allowed at each level and apply no matter what judging system is being used.  The difference people perceive is in the mindset of some judges who, having trained almost exclusively under one set or the other, look at programs leaning towards that system.  An IJS-trained judge may automatically mentally be counting things like features and evaluating GOEs, while a 6.0-trained judge may have a more generalized outlook and weigh elements as part of the whole rather than individually. 

But the programs skated should be the same regardless of how they're being judged.  The only thing coaches might change depending up on the system would be the order of elements, since jumps in the second half may collect a bonus under IJS.  Still, a solid Pre-Pre program is essentailly the same under each system.