Program Choreography

[~Twinkies~]

My daughter is a beginning skater.  She just participated in her second basic skills competition.  I have a question about the normal state of things when it comes to program choreography.

My DD is skating at the same level (Basic 4) as another skater at our rink, who uses the same private coach.  The girls have skated head to head against each other in two competitions -  once at a Basic 3 level and in 2 events today at a Basic 4 level.  The coach has given them both the same exact programs - stroke for stroke - for all 3 events.  There are skaters at our rink at higher levels (some basic, some free skate) who are experiencing the same thing.

Is that normal?  Does a coach typically have a pre-written program for each level and that's what all of her skaters skate?  Is it a basic skills thing?  It's starting to bug me a little because I feel like she should be focusing on the strengths of each skater instead of pulling a one-size-fits-all program out of the can for all the girls.  It seems like she's not making a very big effort, but I don't want to mentally stew over it if that's the normal way of doing things.


Mod note: removed personal info.  Reminder: this is a public forum.

[AgnesNitt]

I can say I've seen different girls do the same program in different years.  So yes, some coaches do have some stock program for competitions at low levels.
I've also heard (at an ISI rink) a judge moan about hearing a piece of music xxxx times in one day. So, yeah, your situation doesn't seem out of the blue to me, but I'll wait to hear the coaches chime in about it.

[Isk8NYC]

I don't do that, but some coaches do for the LTS levels.

[jjane45]

If the coach charged separately for choreography and music cutting, I would feel uncomfortable. However for really low levels with no extra charge, I feel it's the coach's call.

Coaches some times have their favorite "pieces" of choreo. Last ice show I commented to a skater that it was obvious that our programs came from the same coach and we both laughed. Every effort was still made to showcase our strengths so no complaints!

[Clarice]

At the Basic Skills levels, there is a list of required moves that must be included at each level.  At one coaching workshop I was at, we were encouraged to put them into the program in the order listed, so that the judges could easily check off the requirements.

I don't do that;  I prefer to work from the specific piece of music and fit the skills where I think they go best.  I also like to include as many lower-level skills as possible, and especially any moves the particular skater can do well that don't belong to any specific level (like shoot-the-duck, for instance).  I also tend to keep the same piece of music and same program layout for a skater as long as the length works.  I just swap out the skills for higher difficulty ones as the skater progresses.  It would make me crazy to have the same music for every skater at a level, but I'm a professional musician and perhaps have an easier time choosing music because of that.  I saw a competition once where an entire class of Basic Skills skaters competed in the same event with the exact same program to the exact same music.  It was obviously taught to them in a group class, so we all understood what was going on.  I don't know whether the judges enjoyed that, but it sure made it easy to compare the kids!

I don't see anything wrong with having "stock" programs, though.  Not every coach is a gifted choreographer, able to come up with new and distinctive programs every time.  (Not that I am, either!  I haven't been doing this long enough yet to know whether my programs all look alike!  I do think I tend to put certain elements in the same places on the ice, so perhaps my skaters tend to have similar layouts.)  The most important thing is that the program shows off the skater's abilities and that the skater continues to progress.

[karne]

Hmmm...it's a hard call. Personally it'd drive me bananas watching the little girls come out and do exactly the same thing.

Maybe you could talk to the coach and express your concerns? It may be the coach's way of teaching good winning and losing to the kids too...if they have identical programs then it kinda forces the kid who came second to accept that the other skater skated better on the day lol!

[jjane45]

Hmmm...it's a hard call. Personally it'd drive me bananas watching the little girls come out and do exactly the same thing.

How does an ISI compulsory program look like?

[sampaguita]

How does an ISI compulsory program look like?

Hmm interesting question. I wouldn't mind seeing two girls doing the same steps WITHOUT music, but add in different music and it would seem a bit odd.

I don't find compulsory dances weird either -- same steps to the same music.

I think it's because we expect freeskate programs to be different for each skater. Personally, I think choreography for different students should also be different, but I don't think there's a rule that prevents coaches from assigning the same choreography...

[~Twinkies~]

Thanks for the feedback.  It seems it's not that unusual after all.  I guess I just felt that since each skater paid for music selection and to have CDs made (they have different music) and that we each also paid for extra private lessons to teach them the program (in addition to the weekly scheduled ones), that there would be some variance in the programs themselves. 

For the "elements" part, I understand having a standard routine covering all the necessary skills in an order that would fit the requirement nicely is valuable.  But, for the program with music it felt contrived that each girl had the same program with different music and every other skater we saw (all 8 of them at their level!) had different programs that seemed to flow with their music and highlight their individual skills closer than ours did.

I'm having some other reservations about our coach, but she's the director at our local rink and is super possessive of "her girls" so no one else coaches there but her.  So, I'm kind of locked in to using her, unless I go to another rink in the area which is about 40 minutes away .

[jjane45]

I'm having some other reservations about our coach, but she's the director at our local rink and is super possessive of "her girls" so no one else coaches there but her. 

Have you observed her higher level skaters? How about their programs? Seriously I would not worry about the lowest levels as there is not much going on. But if the coach continues this trend beyond LTS it would be awkward.

[Query]

she's the director at our local rink and is super possessive of "her girls" so no one else coaches there but her.

I know this is off-topic, but is it possible for one coach to draw enough students for the rink to be economically viable, or is this a government subsidized rink?

[treesprite]

Maybe a benefit of having the same program for basic skills young children who have the same coach, keeps the kids & their parents from claiming the coach was picking favorites by giving one a winning program and not the others. Once a skater is old enough to contribute to music and element choice, the responsibility for the program begins falling on the skater instead of fully on the coach, so the skaters/parents can't as easily make such accusations.

[~Twinkies~]

I know this is off-topic, but is it possible for one coach to draw enough students for the rink to be economically viable, or is this a government subsidized rink?

There is a small LTS program, that goes to Basic 3 level and then peters out.  She coaches anyone moving up out of that program.  I will occasionally see another coach during freestyle sessions, but they are visiting from another home base rink.  This rink has a HUGE hockey program, which clearly brings home the bacon.

I've done some poking around and from what I've heard, she uses identical programs for skaters up through Freestyle 4 or 5 level, then starts writing custom programs.  For those programs she charges a separate choreography fee.  So, I guess if it starts to matter enough to me, I'll tell her I want a unique program for my daughter and pay for her time to put it together.  I guess it's just a little off-putting to me to have to ask that my daughter's routine be a bit different than the skater that is skating immediately before or after her in almost every event.  Then again, I'm new to this so sometimes I just have to get over myself and my expectations and accept what is "normal" for the sport.

[Clarice]

I wouldn't say this is "normal" practice, but it's not unheard of.

[jjane45]

Up to FS4 / 5?    Well it is off-putting. Maybe she wants to make it affordable to parents? Technically "custom" choreography always costs more than something "stock" because the coach spends more time to put it together with the skater, hence resulting in more private lesson time. For me, even very unpolished choreography takes about 2 extra lessons. That being said, I do not know how to use the exact same routine to interpret different music though. When experienced coaches listen to different pieces of music, certain spots would just scream "spin", "spiral", or "jump" to them.

Have you chatted with the visiting coaches to see what is their standard practice? Maybe some of them don't mind coming to your current rink regularly. Or take group lessons at the other rink and find out more about coaches there, 40 minutes commute is not too bad. while an overkill for basic 4, it's normal for higher level skaters to retain a choreographer in addition to regular freestyle coach.