Carolina Kostner's boots

[Query]

Carolina Kostner, at worlds, skated in boots that are quite low cut in the back, and have a fair amount of space at the top of the boot in the back. Perhaps that's why she can point almost like a ballerina or contemporary dancer while skating.

Spoiler alert: clicking on the link below will show a performance from this year's Worlds:



Most skaters don't point nearly as much as is considered good in many other types of performance dance. With those boots, and her flexibility, she can. I love the way she moves.

(OTOH, it is said she skated a program in "knee-high pirate boots" last year.)

I guess low cut boots are becoming more and more common even in freestyle and pairs, not just dance. Perhaps we will see more and more skaters point like land-dancers.

Cool!

[sarahspins]

I don't think they look lower than average.. I think it's more of an illusion since she is really fairly tall for a skater and has really long legs and as a result nice long balletic lines - she does leave her boots a bit loose at the top, but so do some other top skaters who wear Risport (something I've noticed particular to that brand). 

Look at Elizaveta Tuktamysheva here, she even laces them low over the tongue: http://images.teinteresa.es/deportes/Elizaveta-Tuktamysheva-Gran-Prix-AFP_TINIMA20121208_0336_18.jpg

Or Mao Asada here - they're not laced low like Liza's, but they are still fairly loose: http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2012/12/08/327206-isu-grand-prix.jpg

[rosereedy]

I'd break my ankle if I did my skates like that!!  I need to have them tighter than that at the top.  I know several skaters at my rink do them the same way and it scares me. 

As for Carolina, she is my skating "idol".  She skates the same direction I do and she is tall like me.  She gives me hope.  I've had my eye on her since she came into the scene and I have just watched her get better and better.  I like how fast she skates and how graceful she is.  Of course being tall does make it harder to show the deep knee bend.  We have to exaggerate bends, stretches and stuff like that more.   

[sarahspins]

I'd break my ankle if I did my skates like that!!

Well, they are all most likely skating in much stiffer boots than yours - with more lateral support built into the boot the top can be looser without sacrificing stability - plus lacing looser allows for easier forward bend without breaking down the boot quickly.  I don't lace the tops of my skates super tight, but mine aren't as loose as those pictured either

[rosereedy]

Well, they are all most likely skating in much stiffer boots than yours - with more lateral support built into the boot the top can be looser without sacrificing stability - plus lacing looser allows for easier forward bend without breaking down the boot quickly.  I don't lace the tops of my skates super tight, but mine aren't as loose as those pictured either

I do skate in the stiffest custom boot Klingbeil made in 2006.  Yeah my skates are that old but I haven't skated in them much over the past 8 years.  Even still, I need that security of a little tighter feel at the top.  I guess it's more of a security blanket for me than anything.

[Robin]

I do skate in the stiffest custom boot Klingbeil made in 2006.  Yeah my skates are that old but I haven't skated in them much over the past 8 years.  Even still, I need that security of a little tighter feel at the top.  I guess it's more of a security blanket for me than anything.

The difference is that Risport skates are plastic inside. The uppers don't give at all. They really don't bend well or allow any kind of lateral flex in the ankle, which you need a little of. In contrast, the support in Klingbeils is all leather which offers support but also gives. (Don Klingbeil gave me a demonstration once.) The design of Klingbeil skates does not allow for a loose top. Most likely, the Risports are too stiff even for her. I've used both; I do prefer the real leather over the plastic. Klingbeils also last forever. I just got a new pair after using the other ones pretty consistently for 6 years. I'd still be using them but my foot has changed a little.

[Skittl1321]

I think there are more senior skaters wearing Risport right now than Klingbeil. There is clearly something positive going on about them- doesn't mean they are at all appropriate for lower level adults, but I don't think you can dismiss them as too stiff based on how skaters decided to lace them. 

Klingbeils used to be very good skates, but there have been lots of complaints popping up recently. 

And Klingbeils don't last forever, even the best made ones, they wear out just like any other boot.

[icedancer]

Well, they don't look like dance boots...

And they don't look that loose on top to me - of course I have heat molded SP Teri and I have to leave it loose at the top because IT DOES NOT BEND!! (Oh, did I say that loud enough?).

Carolina is a lovely skater to watch.  She can do her boots up as much or as little as she would like.

[sarahspins]

There are just as many if not more top skaters in Jackson than Risport as well... those two plus Edea really dominate the market worldwide - I would think that if they were that horrible that no one would wear them   I honestly think that some high level skaters are less picky about their boots than lower level skaters because they go through them faster - if you go through a pair of skates a season (and realistically any top level skater will - some go through two or more pairs a year) you don't want something that takes a month or more to break in, which is where boots like Jackson and Risport (and Edea) have an advantage over all-leather boots.

FWIW, it was the lateral support that broke down in my last pair of boots (Jacksons).. if the plastic not bending theory was correct that could never happen, but the lack of lateral support was VERY obvious once I got my new boots... and I like my boots stiff, so that was definitely a problem for me.  It took me about 2 1/2 years to break them down, the first year of which I wasn't skating very regularly.  There was no obvious creasing or point of failure in my old boots - it just happened slowly over time, EXACTLY like it would have for a pair of all leather boots.

[Robin]

I think there are more senior skaters wearing Risport right now than Klingbeil. There is clearly something positive going on about them- doesn't mean they are at all appropriate for lower level adults, but I don't think you can dismiss them as too stiff based on how skaters decided to lace them. 

Yes, you can. You can only leave them loose if they are too stiff to bend.

[sarahspins]

Hmm... yet it seems to be working fine for them, so what's the problem, really?

[amy1984]

I've noticed a lot of higher level skaters, no matter the brand, with looser skates than I would wear.  I always thought it was a personal preference, not the make of the boots... or maybe they have better skills or more strength.

I wear Risport.  I just bought a new pair and wore them as a teen.  Now, I'm certainly not an elite skater, but they work for me.  And I don't lace them as loosely as people seem to be mentioning, so it's not a necessity.  In fact, I can bend better in them than in my GAM's... and I think it's because the flex is all front to back if that makes sense, just not side to side (where there's no movement).  I think the soft back (near the top) helps but I'm no skate expert so who knows.  Some people just prefer a stiffer boot.

Anyways, just my two cents!

[sampaguita]

I tie my skates loose at the top two hooks. I can do away tying them tightly, but I find that if I do that, I will damage the boot with my ankle bend. That was my mistake with my Riedells -- tied them too tight, then tried to really bend my ankle.

I got that tip from "Kids' Book on Figure Skating" -- you can tie your skates tight all the way to the second hook, then for the 3rd and 4th hook, bend your ankle the way you want it to bend, then tie your skates as tightly as you can. When you remove the ankle bend, the skates will seem loose, but they will actually provide support once you bend your ankles.

[sarahspins]

or maybe they have better skills or more strength.

I think this plays a large part of it.  Take a look at Meryl Davis' skates some time.. it always amazes me that she's able to skate so well because her boots (she wears Harlicks) are always very heavily creased, to the point where I wonder how much support they have, but technique, strength, and the way she uses her edges are a huge part of why it works for her.

Consider that Tessa Virtue wears Jacksons and I've never seen her boots with such deep creases... they both use the same blades (MK dance) have the same coaching, are similar level skaters, arguably they are both part of the top two dance teams in the world, so I'm not going to argue that one is better than the other.. it really comes down to personal preference and what works for each skater.  It's nice to have options.

[Query]

My 11 or 12 year old (several thousand skating hours) Klingbeils ("soft" Dance boots) have NO space in the front or back - they flex when needed.

Then again, maybe that's part of why they have broken down - they had to flex. (Plus, I was taught a Dance style in which the ankle flexes sideways at the start of an edge, to make them deeper.)

OTOH, you can see the space in the video in front of and in back of Carolina's boots at top.

Her backs are also much lower than mine, despite mine being Dance boots - but that is true of a lot of more modern boots.

Would most modern freestyle boots let someone point as far as Carolina points her free foot on some of her landing positions and other held poses? She doesn't quite go fully parallel to the leg, like ballerinas do en pointe, but she is a lot closer than most skaters. (Temporally ignore the fact that most skaters couldn't point that far even without boots.)

[Hanca]

The difference is that Risport skates are plastic inside. The uppers don't give at all. They really don't bend well or allow any kind of lateral flex in the ankle, which you need a little of. In contrast, the support in Klingbeils is all leather which offers support but also gives. (Don Klingbeil gave me a demonstration once.) The design of Klingbeil skates does not allow for a loose top. Most likely, the Risports are too stiff even for her. I've used both; I do prefer the real leather over the plastic. Klingbeils also last forever. I just got a new pair after using the other ones pretty consistently for 6 years. I'd still be using them but my foot has changed a little.

Actually, I skate in Klingbeils and I don't lace the top hook at all, and the second from top only very gently. I lace tight only the third hook from the top  and the top hole (the one that is on the bend between the horizontal and vertical part of leg. )  So I disagree that "the design of Klingbeil skates does not allow for a loose top" - it does. It is about what you are comfortable with. I like to have a proper knee bend and if I lace all hooks, the knee bend would be much stiffer; that's not helpful in skating.  Also, when doing a sit spin, when I tried to lace it up to the top, the boot was fighting me in the sit spin, not allowing me properly to get down. The more you have to fight with your boot, the harder it is to balance in spin.

Mind you, I have been doing only single jumps, so I don't need as much stability as someone who would be landing triples.  But as long as the boot is tight around the ankle, it can be loose at the top.

 

[FigureSpins]

Actually, I skate in Klingbeils and I don't lace the top hook at all, and the second from top only very gently. I lace tight only the third hook from the top  and the top hole (the one that is on the bend between the horizontal and vertical part of leg. )  So I disagree that "the design of Klingbeil skates does not allow for a loose top" - it does. It is about what you are comfortable with. I like to have a proper knee bend and if I lace all hooks, the knee bend would be much stiffer; that's not helpful in skating.  Also, when doing a sit spin, when I tried to lace it up to the top, the boot was fighting me in the sit spin, not allowing me properly to get down. The more you have to fight with your boot, the harder it is to balance in spin.

I'm on my fourth pair of Klingbeils and I've never had to tie them tightly at the top, either.   I do use all the hooks after the first few hours, although I skip the setback hook if I'm not jumping.

[Hanca]

I tie my skates loose at the top two hooks. I can do away tying them tightly, but I find that if I do that, I will damage the boot with my ankle bend. That was my mistake with my Riedells -- tied them too tight, then tried to really bend my ankle.

I got that tip from "Kids' Book on Figure Skating" -- you can tie your skates tight all the way to the second hook, then for the 3rd and 4th hook, bend your ankle the way you want it to bend, then tie your skates as tightly as you can. When you remove the ankle bend, the skates will seem loose, but they will actually provide support once you bend your ankles.

I agree with that. My boots don't have four hooks but only three, so the top hole and the lowest hook is really tight (I use this hook twice to make it even tighter - this is the one nearest to the ankle),  the middle hook I do not too tight (I do it while bending my ankle), and the top one I don't do at all.

[Sk8tmum]

Patrick Chan has his skates very loose through the ankle, tight in the boot; he skates in Edeas.  He doesn't need the support to hold the landing apparently

[SynchKat]

Tight...loose...it is all a matter of preference and comfort.  I have to have my skates super tight which is probably one of the reasons I would be considered hard on skates. 

I think these boots Carolina is wearing have the elastic at the back to allow her more point.  They don't look any lower than most boots but it does look like it is cut lower at the back. 

As with most sporting equipment it is all about personal preference. 

[slcbelle]

I was fitted this week by Jason at Harlick for custom boots and we elected to go with the dance back stay for my freestyle boots.  Their dance back stay is, obviously, cut lower than the typical freestyle boot and has a soft piece of leather that goes from the bottom of the back stay to the top of the boot shaft.  He said that a lot of freestyle skaters are electing to have the lower cut dance back stay because it not only allows for better toe point but it also seems to reduce the impact of landings and prevents injury.  Because a skater can point his/her toe more with a lower back, they can cushion the blow of landing by having the toe pointed more at the first moment of landing and then roll onto the bottom of their whole foot thereby reducing the force and distributing their weight.  I'm not being very technical but perhaps you understand what I'm trying to relay.

The back stay will look like this:



He said what's most important is the lateral stiffness and not the forward/backward stiffness.  Since I've been having issues with Haglund's and having a narrow heel, the low cut back stay made perfect sense for me.  My calf won't hit the back of the boot so easily and leverage my heel up and into the heel cup.  This should reduce the frequency and pressure on that heel bone.  I can't wait for my boots and to see how well I can point my toes!

[Sk8tmum]

OT: Harlick is going on summer shutdown as of Monday, yes?  Did they say how long it would take to get your skates?  Jsut checking ... we're due for a new pair of customs ...

[slcbelle]

OT: Harlick is going on summer shutdown as of Monday, yes?  Did they say how long it would take to get your skates?  Jsut checking ... we're due for a new pair of customs ...

Early August

[Nate]

Well, they are all most likely skating in much stiffer boots than yours - with more lateral support built into the boot the top can be looser without sacrificing stability - plus lacing looser allows for easier forward bend without breaking down the boot quickly.  I don't lace the tops of my skates super tight, but mine aren't as loose as those pictured either

This ;-)
 
I bought a whole new less stiff boot from Klingbeil and they're collecting dust simply because they did not give comparable lateral support to the stiffer model.  Not even close to comparable.  It was worth it to just tie the stiffer boot looser, at the top (similar to Tukt's), omitting the top hook, and enjoy the secure stiffness.  Much better than wearing the lighter boot that lets me bend well when tied tightly from bottom to top while feeling like my ankle will get demolished every time I took off for or landed a jump because the lateral support was not as good.  As long as my foot (below the instep) is secure in my boot, there is no feeling of volatility as far as twisting my ankle is concerned so long as the boot has good enough lateral support.

[Nate]

I'm on my fourth pair of Klingbeils and I've never had to tie them tightly at the top, either.   I do use all the hooks after the first few hours, although I skip the setback hook if I'm not jumping.

I tie mine only up to the setback hook and leave the area above the instep quite loose.  I've personally never seen a benefit of tying them tight at the top and I jump relatively high and weigh ~130#.
 
I think I'd pop something if I tried to tie them too tight.  I certainly can't bend to a point where I feel it is adequate for edges/crossovers/jump take offs and landings with all those hooks used, and tied tighter up there...