Why don't skates have shock absorbers?

[sampaguita]

My brother told me that shoe designers for basketball, football, and the like have been improving the shock absorbing capability of their shoes because the athletes have been retiring much later. So I wonder -- why don't skates have such shock absorbers? Skates are so hard and are not exactly made for absorbing the shock that the body will get after doing double to quad jumps. Is it lack of research, or is it because of other things?

[davincisop]

Someone can chime in and correct me if I am wrong, but the John Wilson revolution blades were made to absorb some of the shock. Skaters that have used them say that when they land a jump in them it feels like almost a "bounce".

[Isk8NYC]

That's what I understood as well about the Revolution blades.

Edea says their boots' under soles have shock-absorbing properties.
Riedell, Jackson and GAM say that their boots with layered cork and leather soles also absorb shock.

[Query]

You should pay attention to where you might apply sqishiness - i.e., shock absorption.

It would be easy to replace your insoles with something sqishier. But sqishy insoles allow the foot and/or ankle to bend sideways inside the boot, because if you land with more weight on one side of the foot than the other, the bottom of the foot will tilt if the insole is soft. They also contribute to "toe spring" - bending at the ball of the foot and/or in the toes during jumps and landings.

The whole point of stiff freestyle figure boots is to limit sideways bending and toe spring.

Squishiness inside the boot in the back mostly contributes to sideways bending. Sqishiness up front mostly contributes to toe spring (unless the front of your feet are unusually mobile.) If you really want to get fancy, more sqishiness on one side or another might partially compensate for some types of pronation or supination.

Squishiness in the outsole and the blade do not allow such motions of the ankle and foot inside the boot.

You could create squishiness in the outsole by inserting a sqishable shim between the blade and outsole. I haven't experimented with that, but it would be a lot cheaper than buying Revolution blades.

Hope those explanations are clear.

Personally, I think it would be easier and less injurious if boots did allow a little more shock absorption throughout the soles than most freestyle figure skates, and there were a little more toe spring as well. (I think toe spring contributes to jumping ability.)  (Note that basketball shoes, and most athletic shoes, do allow shock absorption throughout the sole and do allow toe spring.)

But I don't do any high or fancy jumps, so maybe I don't understand what injures people in higher and fancier jumps.

---

Does anyone know where to find discussions of the medical consequences of figure skate boot designs? Such places would be a better place to get answers to such questions.

[sampaguita]

Squishiness in the outsole and the blade do not allow such motions of the ankle and foot inside the boot.

You could create squishiness in the outsole by inserting a sqishable shim between the blade and outsole. I haven't experimented with that, but it would be a lot cheaper than buying Revolution blades.

Personally, I think it would be easier and less injurious if boots did allow a little more shock absorption throughout the soles than most freestyle figure skates, and there were a little more toe spring as well. (I think toe spring contributes to jumping ability.)  (Note that basketball shoes, and most athletic shoes, do allow shock absorption throughout the sole and do allow toe spring.)

I was actually wondering why there wasn't a lot of shock absorbing material in the outsole. Leather and cork aren't the best shock absorbing materials in the world. I hope manufacturers will soon find a material that will match skaters' needs.

[Purple Sparkly]

I was actually wondering why there wasn't a lot of shock absorbing material in the outsole. Leather and cork aren't the best shock absorbing materials in the world. I hope manufacturers will soon find a material that will match skaters' needs.

Skaters and coaches are not demanding materials to absorb shock better, so it is not beneficial for manufacturers to spend the resources on this research.  If you have suggestions for better shock absorbing materials, you should discuss them with skate manufacturers.

[FigureSpins]

The manufacturers also don't want to spend the money unless it results in a profit for them.  Since cork is inexpensive and renewable, compared to the layered leather soles/heels, it was in their best interest to use the product and say it reduces shock.  I think Jackson did a study to prove it, but I could be wrong.

[Query]

FWIIW, a study at the University of Delaware found that most of the (elite level) figure skaters they studied were skating with bone fractures - if I understood correctly. So shock absorption might make sense.

But if you use materials that are TOO squishy, then the skate will tilt and move around a fair bit after you place the skate on the ice on edge. Perhaps the fact that figure skating judges seem to pay a lot of attention to holding the edge and arc with some constancy, and the difficulty it might be to balance a jump take off and landing if the blade and edge depth shifted during the landing would make squishiness bad. I'm not sure how important a factor that is.

I wonder if Revolution blades are constructed in such a way as to mechanically confine the effects of the distortion to mostly vertical motion. If so, squishiness in those blades might be better than squishiness in the outsole and heel.

Incidentally, squishiness that generates tilt, will also create sideways motion in the knees and hips. That's true even if the stiff boot prevents sideways motion within the foot and ankle. It is said that sideways motion in the knees can cause injury, especially during jumps.

There are no doubt a lot of factors that go into figure skate design. And the number of reasonably high level figure skaters might not justify the costs of research, unlike hockey, basketball, soccer, track and field, etc. So figure skating boot designs may be less optimal than athletic shoes for those sports.

[DrillingSkills]

Wasn't this the whole reasoning behind Jackson's Pro-Flex boots from a few years ago? Alissa Czisny wore them for quite a few years, but always wore over-the-boot tights since these articulated boots didn't quite look the same as the more traditional ones. They've dropped off the market since then, but I don't know what the critiques were or what happened exactly. They were meant to allow for more ankle shock-absorption, thus lessening the torque/pressure/shock absorption in the knees and hips, but how much I can't recall. I'm guessing skaters just didn't like the difference and mostly went back to "traditional" boots?

[Query]

The idea of Pro-Flex was to make the boot very flexible in the point-flex dimension, at the ankle, while maintaining full stiffness in the sideways direction - I was told they were stiffer in the sideways direction.

Because they weren't stiff in the point/flex dimension at the ankle, your body, not your boot, would have to absorb ALL the vertical shock on jump landing that the boot stiffness at the ankle would otherwise have absorbed. So, no, I don't think they provided extra shock absorption.

Some people I knew tried them and loved them (easier to point and flex), some hated them (not enough support in the flex/point direction, too much stiffness in the sideways direction, or the knob at the back got in the way of close footwork).

[Robin]

My brother told me that shoe designers for basketball, football, and the like have been improving the shock absorbing capability of their shoes because the athletes have been retiring much later. So I wonder -- why don't skates have such shock absorbers? Skates are so hard and are not exactly made for absorbing the shock that the body will get after doing double to quad jumps. Is it lack of research, or is it because of other things?

If you have proper technique, your toes, ankles, and the rest of your leg working in concert is a shock absorber. Ever notice how ballet dancers jump? They start from a plie and END in a plie, with the foot rolling through the takeoff and landing. The same idea applies in skating. This is where strong quadriceps and a strong core come in really handy. If you need shock absorbers while skating, you may want to consider another coach.

[Robin]

I should add that most skaters use boots that are too stiff for them. We've all been brainwashed into thinking stiff is good, but it isn't. Sure, you want a certain amount of support, but once you get to the point where your knees hurt and hips hurt and your ankes are numb, you have too much stiffness and the body's natural ability to withstand jumping is eliminated. Get a softer boot and the problem will be solved.

[sampaguita]

If you have proper technique, your toes, ankles, and the rest of your leg working in concert is a shock absorber. Ever notice how ballet dancers jump? They start from a plie and END in a plie, with the foot rolling through the takeoff and landing. The same idea applies in skating. This is where strong quadriceps and a strong core come in really handy. If you need shock absorbers while skating, you may want to consider another coach.

Yes, but ballet dancers don't do quad jumps...I really think that if we want to keep seeing quads in competition, we're going to need better equipment.

[Skittl1321]

Yes, but ballet dancers don't do quad jumps...I really think that if we want to keep seeing quads in competition, we're going to need better equipment.

I've seen ballet men do quads- it just isn't called for in most dances so there isn't really a need to train them. Skater's learn the jump off ice, so of course it can be done off ice.
These guys are just doing doubles- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVN9als2atU but the continued nature really shows Robin's point- the jump is very similar, and they land safely with NO shoe.


ETA: This video has a gorgeous triple tour en l'air.  I'm still thinking the nature of skating requires a stiffer boot, but these jumps can be landed using just the feet and legs.  Of course, ballet dancers spend years strengthening their feet to be able to do just this sort of thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3UvK34CIm4

[sampaguita]

I've seen ballet men do quads- it just isn't called for in most dances so there isn't really a need to train them. Skater's learn the jump off ice, so of course it can be done off ice.
These guys are just doing doubles- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVN9als2atU but the continued nature really shows Robin's point- the jump is very similar, and they land safely with NO shoe.

WOW! I loved how they rotate while in the air. Strangely, I think skaters do it differently, even off-ice -- I just can't pinpoint the difference (maybe the take-off?). I like the ballet jumps better, actually.

[Skittl1321]

WOW! I loved how they rotate while in the air. Strangely, I think skaters do it differently, even off-ice -- I just can't pinpoint the difference (maybe the take-off?). I like the ballet jumps better, actually.

To me a huge difference is the spotting. That changes the look entirely.  But the jump is different- the arms are held in first position here, not brought against the body at the chest, the legs are generally next to each other, and very turned out, not crossed or wrapped (when they are crossed, it is just that they are held in 5th position).  Though of course variations can change where the arms and legs go.  And of course the main thing is they are taking off with only upward momentum, a skater has vertical and horizontal elements to their jump- it's a different thing, they jump up and rotate, skaters seem to rotate into the jump.  And I think because skaters don't have or take the time to really train their feet, the stiffness of the boot does 'help' them with the jump, I just wanted to post it is possible to jump without 'support'.

[sampaguita]

This has made me really curious. What training do ballet dancers do for this jump? Can they do it on any surface, or does it have to be done on wooden ballet floor? I'm thinking maybe the natural bounce of wood also helps.

[4711]

This has made me really curious. What training do ballet dancers do for this jump? Can they do it on any surface, or does it have to be done on wooden ballet floor? I'm thinking maybe the natural bounce of wood also helps.

It probably helps in the landing....
From what I recall from a long time ago, their feet and ankles are pretty well shot by the time they are done dancing at 30ish, 40ish....

[Skittl1321]

This has made me really curious. What training do ballet dancers do for this jump? Can they do it on any surface, or does it have to be done on wooden ballet floor? I'm thinking maybe the natural bounce of wood also helps.

Modern dance floors are "sprung" so they have give to them. It is not a noticeable bounce though, so the spring doesn't really help the jump.  Many dancers will refuse to dance on concrete base floors. I personally can't tell the difference, my jumps suck.

[alejeather]

Modern dance floors are "sprung" so they have give to them. It is not a noticeable bounce though, so the spring doesn't really help the jump.  Many dancers will refuse to dance on concrete base floors. I personally can't tell the difference, my jumps suck.

I wouldn't call it bounce at all. It's more like it has give. It doesn't help you to jump up, but it's much softer to land on than a concrete base floor.

[Skittl1321]

Reread my post. I said it has give, not a bounce.

[alejeather]

Reread my post. I said it has give, not a bounce.

So you did. I think I missed the second half of your first sentence

Perhaps to clarify my intent, you said it's not a noticeable bounce and I just said I don't think of it as bounce at all. For someone who's not been in a ballet studio, I was hoping to add to the illustration of what a ballet floor is like.

My church has a gym which was built in the 80s and they had a fully dedicated room for aerobics, which had an actively springy floor--a different beast entirely. That floor had bounce! (They've recently taken it out because it's not been used for aerobics probably in a decade.) I'm like a spoiled princess and the pea about jumping on non-sprung floors. I get shin splints just thinking about it

[Query]

If you watch those videos carefully, they only "spot" on the slower rotation moves. As they go faster, they don't spot either.

As far as ballet dancers jumping without external lateral support - they aren't taking off and landing from a super-slippery surface, on nothing but a few square square mm of a sharp edge. They may point the toes into the take off and landing, but just before the jump and after the landing they can stop any sideways momentum across a much wider portion of their feet or shoes.

In addition to not being able to use a wide baseline to stability, skaters' feet are also a sizable fraction of an inch above the ice, which makes it easier (and more dangerous) to create a larger motion in the the joints of the ankle.

I guess jumping in high heel fashion shoes would be hard too. There are styles of off-ice dance where they do that. Often without any ankle support. I'm not sure how that works.

[irenar5]

Just saw a demonstration of the Edea shock absorbing insole.  This insole looks and  feels like a very thin piece of soft vinyl. 
The demonstrator bounced off a small metal ball off a marble surface (predictably, the ball bounced off high).  Then he placed the Edea insole over the marble and  bounced the ball again.  This time the ball's impact was completely absorbed by the insole!  It did not bounce at all!  I was quite impressed. 
Several adult skaters walking by said how much they like skating with the insole- as it makes them feel a lot less tired.

Sampaguita, perhaps this is something for you to try...

[sampaguita]

Just saw a demonstration of the Edea shock absorbing insole.  This insole looks and  feels like a very thin piece of soft vinyl. 
The demonstrator bounced off a small metal ball off a marble surface (predictably, the ball bounced off high).  Then he placed the Edea insole over the marble and  bounced the ball again.  This time the ball's impact was completely absorbed by the insole!  It did not bounce at all!  I was quite impressed. 
Several adult skaters walking by said how much they like skating with the insole- as it makes them feel a lot less tired.

Sampaguita, perhaps this is something for you to try...

Impressive -- I wonder what's there on the insole, probably some polymer, like SkatingSafe? I wonder if Jackson and Riedell's top level insoles also have shock absorbing properties...