how do i know if she's overdoing it?

[threenorns]

so far, she's been skating 2 - 3hrs a day, every day.  i'm always asking if she's sore, do her legs hurt, etc, but honestly:  she can have the worst fall in the world and the next day, nothing at all.  no DOMS, no bruise, nothing.

is this something i leave to her or is this where i should regulate how much she does? 

she didn't skate today bec we had an appt in lindsay and went to mcdonald's for lunch and she decided instead of skating in lindsay, she would spend 2hrs running up and down the play structure like a hamster in one of those habitrail things.  she was *soaked* in sweat.  we came home and she lay on the couch for about an hour but she's back to jumping on her trampoline.  (i should add that it took both me and her father and some pretty creative threats to get her out of there - they need some way parents can extract their kids when it's time to leave).

[Skittl1321]

Although this may not be true of a child with autism, for the most part, kids complain.  If she says she is tired, bored, or doesn't want to go- don't take her.

Otherwise, she's probably fine.

She isn't out there training high impact moves. It is no different from playing outside.

[threenorns]

thank you!  i'm at the "slightly insane" phase, where i'm trying to learn as much as i can about something i know nothing about while at the same encouraging her to go for it AND keep her balanced so she doesn't injure herself or burn out.

it's not much fun.

[hopskipjump]

Does your child self regulate well or do you have to regulate her?  For example, you set her favorite food in front of her - does she eat a serving and walk away or eat until she is overly full?  When it's hot and she is running around, does she know to cool down and drink lots of fluids or does she run until she is overheated?

Some kids know when enough is enough, other kids have to be taught when they have had enough. 

Somewhere there is a link to the number of hours a week a skater should skate at each level and it also shows the danger zones for over training.  I have it on my other computer - I'll look for it tomorrow.

[sarahspins]

Some kids know when enough is enough, other kids have to be taught when they have had enough.

This is just what I was thinking - at 6 she really can't be the one to choose how much time she's spending on the ice if she's not capable of self-regulating (as evidenced by playing 2 hours at McDonald's and the "creative threats" to get her to leave - that is not normal, autism or not.), and it's not because of the excess of ice time, but because of the dynamic it sets up where she's the one calling the shots. At her level it's really impossible to "over train" - kids just want to skate more because it's fun.

[threenorns]

she's more the grazer - at meal time, she'll stop eating when she's not hungry any more (and then, naturally, is diving into the fridge half an hour later).  can't get her to eat more at once no matter how delicious the meal.  she also has a habit of drinking two big glasses of water with her meal so she's filled herself up.  we've put a stop to that:  she can have one ounce with her dinner but no more until she's finished off more food.  it's helped a bit but not a lot.


the movement, that's a lifelong thing:  she was 9mo old when the healthy babies worker said she'd been in the business nearly 20 years and never saw a baby move as much as saari.  she was already walking and she would move in a continuous cycle:  bounce her head off the couch, go hands-and-feet on the floor, roll herself into a sitting position, then get up and do it all over again.  she did that the entire hour the the worker was there.  she's in continuous movement unless she's watching TV and then her face goes blank and her body freezes.  if she gets bored, it becomes bad.  it's better now but when she was 3yrs old and we had to go to the doctor's office, she *had to* run up and down the hall continuously - she would run the length of the hall, *slam* the far wall, say "tag!  you're it!" and then run all the way back to "BANG" on the waiting room door.   the family doctor begged me to put her on rispardal after watching her do this for ten minutes straight.   she was 4 when she was diagnosed by a developmental specialist with ADHD and impulse disorder.  her ADHD, at that time, was ranked about a 7-1/2 out of 10 and the only reason it wasn't higher was bec she isn't aggressive (in spite of her screaming at the top of her lungs as she went up and down the hall of the clinic slamming every door that wasn't locked; that was stopped by the secretary tossing some highlighter markers and a steno pad on the floor for her to find and instantly she switched off).  that doctor, too, wanted to put her medication (adderall).    the paediatric specialist we have now believes as i do that medication should not be a first resort until we've done what we can to teach her coping skills and techniques.  that's why we got the indoor mini-tramp: when she gets "itchy skin" (she calls it) she can jump on the trampoline and it makes the itchies fall off.

normally, it's not too bad to get her off the ice or out of the playground - i call out a countdown:  "15 minutes.... 10 minutes... 7 minutes.... 4 minutes... saari, you've got two minutes left, make the most of them" and so on.  i don't know why it was different today.

[threenorns]

the DS also recommended we work with saari's strengths - so we buy her Junie B Jones books bec she reads english at a grade 2 level, french at a grade 1 (she's in SK french immersion); we do as much physical sports as we can get her into (which is actually not a lot bec most programs around here start at 7); and i do a lot of home schooling (one of our more interesting sessions involved tornados (meteorology), how airplanes fly (aerodynamics), why things look wobbly through raindrops (refraction), and cobalt blue tarantulas (EEEEEK!!!!)).

[Skittl1321]

and it's not because of the excess of ice time, but because of the dynamic it sets up where she's the one calling the shots.

Yes, my answer was with the assumption that the parent wanted to know if the time on the ice was causing injury or 'over-doing it'.  Parenting techniques (I said it is time to go now...) were not part of the response.  If 2-3 hours a day is too much for the family, that is a different matter.  But 2-3 hours for a kid on the ice isn't a problem if the kid is enjoying it.

[fsk8r]

One of the British gymnasts at the Olympics was started because he had ADHD and his mother was struggling to cope with him at home. He found that the gymnastics gave him the mental discipline to calm down while also gave him an outlet for his energy. He's never taken any medication for it.
Hopefully skating can provide your daughter with a similar outlet.

[threenorns]

that's exactly what i was hoping!

yeah, our parenting is very much saari-centred bec her abilities are so out of whack (some bits high above age level, others far below).  i wouldn't have a problem leaving her alone in the house for half an hour if she's on the computer (wouldn't have a problem leaving her alone in the house while we went to cancun for a week if the computer is on, lol) but if she's not on the computer, someone has to be there at all times because she just gets these things in her head that "seemed like a good idea at the time", usually involving height or food dye.  can't even begin to tell you how many times we've had to get her to emerg but in spite of some spectacular swellings and bruises, no broken bones (not even the time she ripped the bookcase anchor out of the wall - thank goodness it was just one of those flimsy IKEA models and not something big and antique bec she wasn't even trying).

i showed her the video of the skating-en-pointe and she fell in love, love, love and wants to do that.  i said, well... first you need to learn all the different parts of skating - going backwards, doing crossovers, and so on.  then you need to learn to do them on figure skates.  then we have to find out where to get those shoes.  it will take a long, long time.

"forever?"
"no, just years."
"even when i'm 8 years old!???"
"longer."
"even when i'm a HUNDRED years old!??"
"not that long."
"well, when?"
"maybe when you're about 18."
"that's what i said - forever!"

[threenorns]

today i took her to the figure-skating drop in.  the coach wasn't there, but i had two parents yattering at me that she wasn't allowed on the ice.  i set them straight  and got "oh, what, so now just anybody can come in???"  i said "i don't know why you're so uppity - the skating club isn't paying for this ice; it's for *anybody* who wants to do more than just go around and around the rink".  so they went to the arena attendant and he was very firm with them.  so the brunette comes back looking like she'd sucked a lemon and said "well, tell your kid to watch out for the bigger kids."  i said "how about telling the bigger kids to watch out for the little kid!"

saari was so intimidated, she ended up just going around and around the boards anyway, just watching all the girls doing their thing.  i told her go ahead, do what you want to do but she just put her face down and shook her head.  i said it's okay, we can wait till the public skate but no - so okay, off she went.  after the zamboni, she had the ice to herself for about 5 minutes and she pulled out all the stops.  the brunette said "why didn't she do that during the proper time?" and i told "because you were very unfriendly and unwelcoming and you freaked her out."

i spoke with her father today and frankly, we're not too hepped on her joining the club - i think we'll seek out a private coach instead.

today was also her first day with dave (the other guy was rick, mea culpa).  he was expecting to work with her "maybe 20 minutes or so, at her age" but she kept him going for a solid hour and if the zamboni hadn't come out, they'd still be at it.  he came off the ice with a huge grin and said "she's really good!" then explained what he is looking to work on.  i asked if there's anything we should do at home and he just flapped a hand and said "naaaah, she'll get it eventually" and just to get her on the ice for the public skating hours, no need to worry about anything extra ("she doesn't feel it now but eventually she's going to realize she's got a big bruise on her butt" - from landing right on top of her skates).

she needs to figure out how to drop her butt - her knees are moderately bent but she leans far forward instead of tucking her butt under - and learn to move her arms without moving her shoulders.  that's where the stitch is coming from, rotating her upper body too much.  once she's got those, he predicts she's going to pick up both in skill and in speed very quickly.

and she has to have a proper hockey helmet.  the one she's got "will certainly do the job - it's a great helmet" but it's not regulation so we might as well get them now while stores are off-loading winter sport inventory.

[hopskipjump]

I know the moms freak out at lower level kids on freestyle (figure skating) ice without a coach.  Most of it is that little kids don't learn the patterns of the other skaters so they can dart in the way and the older skater can't pull out (that is how my daughter broke her ankle - - low level skater on freestyle ice got in her path, she over corrected and her ankle snapped).  She knows she is padded enough to let the skater in the way get hit now, it won't hurt her as much since she will land on top.  She can't see a skater below her waist in height when setting up a jump.  The other part is that the figure skating session has a map.  it's not printed but the skaters know what it is.

http://www.skatepsa.com/PDF%20Documents/RinkDiagrams.pdf

It's a variation of one of those. 

Notice the very narrow "no jump zone".  That is where you daughter would have to stay in order not to get hurt or cause an injury if she is not with a coach.

[FigureSpins]

If the public session is right afterward, why are you so insistent on skating during the figure skating session?  It seems like you're paying for a more expensive session with no benefit other than being able to say "nyeh, nyeh" to the figure skating parents. 

She wouldn't be allowed to skate without a coach on most freestyle (figure skating) sessions in the US.  Most have specific age/skating level requirements, some even divide it further with low- and high-freestyle sessions and posted rules.  I'm betting you don't have a clue as to the rules of a figure skating session, so how could she possibly know?  Having her toddle around out there randomly is dangerous since she doesn't understand the right-of-way rules, can't move safely out of the way when needed, and doesn't pay attention to what's going on around her.  If anything, she's an on-ice hazard since she has very little control and skates randomly. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the skating parents don't object to the desk clerk's rules and ask the manager to change the rules for safety's sake before someone gets hurt.  That's not "being uppity"

I also think you're going down the wrong path with this skating buddy - he has no curriculum or lesson plans, so most likely, no insurance either.  Hope he's not charging you for these "lessons."  (Doesn't sound like it.) 

I really don't see how challenging the experienced skating parents is a great achievement on your part, but I do hope no one gets hurt.  If you're so into hockey, why don't you post on a hockey board instead of an adult figure skating board?  You're sure to get support and attention for your efforts.

[Skittl1321]

i said "how about telling the bigger kids to watch out for the little kid!"

Figure skating ice is for figure skaters.  The higher level skaters do have a responsibility to skate safely around lower level skaters, but lower level skaters have a responsibility to stay out of the way.

Your daughter is not ready for figure skating ice, unaccompanied.  She is not mature enough in her mind-set or her skills to skate safely on a high level session.  Can she see a skater set up for a jump and anticipate where they will be moving to?  Does she know moves patterns to know what skater will be cutting through the diagonal of the rink?  Can she memorize other people's programs so that she knows whose music is on (because you have to yield to them) and where they will be going with what skills?  Can she judge when to quickly move out of the way, and when to stay still when a quicker skater is coming at her?  Can she always watch over her shoulder while skating backwards? Can she tell which skaters are CW and which are CCW and be able to adjust her expectations of their movements based on this distinction? These are all skills that a figure skater needs, and NOT skills that a young child (even those prodigy 5 year olds with salchows) or beginner skater (regardless of age, adults too shouldn't be on this ice until they have the necessary skills, despite the awareness) have. As a parent, you should consider that by insisting on figure skating ice you are putting her in an unsafe situation.    If you really want her out there, you need to have her with a coach.

saari was so intimidated, she ended up just going around and around the boards anyway

This is how I felt on my first freestyle session, and I was 25, with a coach, in lesson, and had already done my first USFSA tests!  It was terrifying.  I had watched many sessions so I knew what to expect, but when the day came, it was more crowded than normal and just nothing could have prepared me for the speed and the power these skaters were putting out on the ice.  My coach was able to help me (because people in lessons also have right of way), and by being able to watch for me. I wouldn't have been able to watch for oncoming skaters and skate at the same time.

[davincisop]

Figure skating ice is for figure skaters.  The higher level skaters do have a responsibility to skate safely around lower level skaters, but lower level skaters have a responsibility to stay out of the way.
...

This is how I felt on my first freestyle session, and I was 25, with a coach, in lesson, and had already done my first USFSA tests!  It was terrifying.  I had watched many sessions so I knew what to expect, but when the day came, it was more crowded than normal and just nothing could have prepared me for the speed and the power these skaters were putting out on the ice.  My coach was able to help me (because people in lessons also have right of way), and by being able to watch for me. I wouldn't have been able to watch for oncoming skaters and skate at the same time.

I've been skating on freestyle sessions for YEARS and I'm still intimidated! It's a lot to have to think about (watching patterns, jump set ups etc) and still manage to get a worthwhile session out of it.

I'm going to tell you flat out, threenorns, your daughter is not ready for figure skating ice. Not only is it dangerous for her, it is dangerous for the other skaters out there. I've almost had several collisions with small children that should not have been on freestyle ice because I was going backwards and they were too small to see out of my peripheral vision. Keep her on public session ice, or find a low level (basic 4 or below) freestyle she could skate on. The last thing you want is an injury to scare the bejeebus out of her and her not ever want to get on the ice again, and have another skater get injured in the process.

[threenorns]

the drop in is just that - a drop in - and there's no charge for it: it's put on by the arena.  there is no experience criteria and it's not for the figure skating club, it's for the public.    the figure skating club, between the training sessions,  the dedicated drop-in sessions, and the several hours booked for private one-on-one as kids are getting ready for competition and so on gets (again, according to the manager) anywhere from 12 to 15 and up hours ice time.

if you're not in the skating club but want to try something out you saw on youtube or just figure skate like you did when you were a kid or whatever, you get two hours a week.

the skating club co-opted those two hours and folded them into their own schedule even though they don't pay for the ice during that time.

[Skittl1321]

You keep calling it a figure skating drop in though, not a public session.  Recreational skating is not figure skating.  If there is no experience requirement, it is a public session.

If your daughter is a good skater, who is not a club member- that is when she should be on that session. 

But if she isn't safe on the session, she shouldn't be on it.  I'd just hate for a kid to get a blade to the head because someone was in the middle of a camel spin and she backed into it. 

(We too have club ice that is only for the club, and figure skating ice that is only for "figure skating"- meaning passed basic skills, or accompanied by the coach.) 

I'd continue to expect complaints, and you are just putting your daughter at risk by sending her out there, even if it is "allowed".  Send her out there with a coach, paid or otherwise. Someone who can make sure she is skating safely, both her safety and for the safety of those around her.

I know you think she is a figure skating prodigy, but what she is doing is pretty typical of kids her age.  I'm really sorry, but you don't have a special snowflake. She might have talent, and it is great that you foster it, but the skill is not there yet.

[phoenix]

Figure skating ice is figure skating ice, whether sponsored by the club or the rink. At my rink we have some club ice, some rink ice. But it is all for figure skaters, at a certain level, & a beginner wouldn't be allowed on without a coach. This is typical, and as everyone else is saying, it is for everyone's safety. Not sure why you're ignoring the warnings of the very real danger.

Hang around a rink long enough, you will see collisions, some of them are very scary. Please consider your child's welfare above your pride. Sorry, but that's what seems to be going on here.

[threenorns]

it's a "figure skating" drop in because during public skate, you're technically not allowed to figure skate on the ice.  the arena put the two sessions in to accomodate members of the public who want to do figure skating moves such as jumps and whatnot, as opposed to just going around and around during the public session.  there is no age limit, helmet rules have to be followed (half the kids on the ice could legitimately been asked to leave bec they were underage and not wearing helmets).

i do not at all think she is a "figure skating prodigy".  if i thought that, she'd have figure skates and she'd be in the club wearing a sparkly little dress.  what i think is she's a darned good skater who wants to skate and who should be on the ice any time she's allowed to use it.  the only reason i want her to have proper training is so she will do the things she wants to do without breaking an ankle or getting a concussion or suffering life-long back injury because she was doing something wrong or giving it up because she's gotten bored going around and around and around in a circle.  it's the same reason she'll take driver's ed instead of learning behind the wheel and it's the same reason she'll take the babysitting certification course instead of picking it up at the cost of somebody else's poor tot.  it's why i bought her an $80 pair of brand new CCM skates instead of a $30 second-hand pair or a $40 pair made by some chinese knock-off factory:  what is the point teaching her to skate if her own equipment is sabotaging her?

if i can't find her a private coach, then yes, i'll have to put her in the club but i'm 90% certain she won't be doing any fancy little end of year show nor will she doing any competitions because that's not her thing. she'll also be taking hockey skating lessons even though i'm 90% certain she'll never play a game.   she just wants to skate.  so if she's going to skate, she's going to skate properly.

as for the drop in, it's not right for the club to hog the whole ice - public access ice they're denying access to the public when they don't allow the public anywhere near the ice during the times they pay for it.  there were adults and teens in the lobby waiting for the public skating to start who were unaware they could've been out there as well.  it's *not right*.

and even if she does go into competition, here's the reality for her as well as for anybody else's little twinkle-toes:  there's, what, maybe a couple of dozen competitors at the olympic level?  there's maybe 30, 40 champion level national competitors?  there's about a half-a-gajillion kids registered with the skating federations. 

it matters not one jot or tittle how much talent or ability she has - she doesn't have the competitive spirit.  she's not interested in beating other ppl.  if it's not a game, she doesn't want to play.

and i'm ***perfectly okay*** with that.

[Skittl1321]

as for the drop in, it's not right for the club to hog the whole ice - public access ice they're denying access to the public when they don't allow the public anywhere near the ice during the times they pay for it.  there were adults and teens in the lobby waiting for the public skating to start who were unaware they could've been out there as well.  it's *not right*.

If it is figure skating drop in, the club has the right to be there, they are figure skating.  Any public member who can figure skate has the right to be there.  What your daughter is doing right now is NOT figure skating. 

You need to petition your rink to put a label on it.  If it is meant to be low level, non-elite, figure skating, they need to say that.  Many rinks have ice time that is "low figure skating" - no jumps above axel, no flying spins.  Still dangerous for a beginner who doesn't know the ins and outs of how figure skaters move around the ice, but at least it is a time suitable for beginning -figure- skaters (not beginning -skaters-.)

Isn't your daughter in hockey skates?  Why should she be on a figure skating drop in?  Maybe you should send her  to a hockey drop in...  She'd be just as out of place on a stick and puck as she was on the figure skating ice.  Because right now, she belongs on public.  That's where beginners go. 

I know Canada's clubs make it a pain in the ass.  In the US, it is a little easier, but seriously- she just isn't ready for figure skating ice yet.

[phoenix]

Agreed, your daughter is not figure skating. Your videos of her on the public show that she's fine there, she's allowed to skate around & lift up a foot & try to stop. That's what public sessions are for.

There's a reason, as you said, for the separate drop in figure skating ice. It's not for what she is doing yet.

Still very confused why you don't seem to care that it's dangerous for her.

For the record, i am a coach. When i have a beginning figure skating student, i don't allow them on figure skating sessions until they're getting ready for their first moves in the field test.

[irenar5]

I would also suggest that you take her on public ice.  The type of skills she is practicing would fit well on the public ice.  In my opinion, kids who attend figure skating sessions (drop in or otherwise) should know the skaters' rules and etiquette.  Like no hanging out in the lutz corner.  If she does not know what a lutz corner is, she should not be out there.