Newly sharpened blades slipping on ice

[sampaguita]

I had my blades sharpened because I was already sliding around. I had them sharpened, and everyone I asked (coaches, skaters) agreed with me that the blades were sharp. Upon examination, the edges also seem to be even.

However, the blades are STILL sliding around. The blades don't seem to bite the ice -- the tracings are *extremely* shallow. It's so shallow that I can do a tango stop and still not stop -- the blades just seem to slide on the ice, even when on an edge. T-stops are easy, although it seems to take longer to stop.

The sharpener is putting the blame on me for requesting a 7/16" ROH, despite the fact that I requested for the same ROH last time and had no problems. He claims he used a 3/8" sharpening (his preferred ROH) for me for my last sharpening, but I distinctly remember him telling me then that he did 7/16", as I had requested. (Unfortunately, despite this whole incident really pissing me off, I can't find another sharpener. He's the only sharpener around, and to his credit, he sharpens well.)

I've been on the ice 2x now since that sharpening, one on badly scratched ice, and another on newly resurfaced ice. The blades slid both times. On the second time, my skating buddy said that my skates were moving side to side during consecutive edges! It happens with both edges, although I notice that I have better control with the inside edges as compared to the outside ones. I can manage 4-rev two-foot spins without much effort because the blades just seem to slide on the ice without any resistance. But three-turns are difficult because I can't get that edge.

I guess my question is -- if my sharpener had indeed lied to me and used a 3/8" sharpening before, would the difference be THAT bad if I had really switched to 7/16"? Or could it be that there's something wrong with the water used in making the ice?

[Query]

[Edited] If the original ice was really, really scratched, skating on it may have destroyed the edge. Beyond a certain limit of surface roughness, I won't skate.

I guess my question is -- if my sharpener had indeed lied to me and used a 3/8" sharpening before, would the difference be THAT bad if I had really switched to 7/16"? Or could it be that there's something wrong with the water used in making the ice?

No and no. (Assuming you are skating at the same rink you were used to.)

Perhaps you have knocked the edge(s) over onto its side (inwards or outwards), by walking on it off ice, or by a very strong stop. That is somewhat consistent with the outside edges being apparently less sharp. Here is a test that you should not try unless you are confident you can do it without cutting your self: Touch the edges very lightly, at many points. Is the sharp part pointed exactly downwards, relative to the boot, or perceptively inwards or outwards? You can fix that yourself without resharpening.

Most sharpeners dull the blade slightly after sharpening. (Most also point the edges slightly towards the centerline of the blade - i.e., inside edges towards the outside edge, outside edges towards the inside edge - but not enough for you to perceive.) Perhaps he figured that if you liked 7/16", you wanted it extra dull too. That could be a bigger difference than between the 3/8" and 7/16" ROH.

Or perhaps he has switched to a wheel with a courser grit.

Take it back to the sharpener and see if he can fix it. If in the end all you can do is have him resharpen it, tell him not to dull the blade much, if at all. Of course, you may then feel it is too sharp.

If possible, watch him sharpen it. If he has another employee sharpen it, that person may be less expert.

[sampaguita]

Hi Query! Thanks for answering. I am skating at the same rink with the same boots and blades. I touched the blades and here's what I observed:

The edges are sharper at the sides than at the bottom. So if I slide my finger vertically (from the boot to the blade), it feels sharp. However, if I slide my finger on the bottom of the blade (along the hollow), the edges of the blade don't feel very sharp. So it's like the edges are sharp at the sides, and dull at the bottom. Is that even possible?

[Query]

It makes complete sense. You may have walked to or from the ice on the blades off ice without guards, which knocked the pointy part of the edge over to the sides, or you did some very strong stops, though that is more common for hockey skaters. (There is a slight possibility, your sharpening pro forgot to re-point the sharpening burr - which is the knocked over tip of the edge - in the right direction in the first place, but not if he's well experienced.)

If you can get something like a piece of hard leather, or a fine grain flat grinding stone ($1 or $2 at the dollar store), use it to push the edges back to vertical, or the 5 degree or so inwards (towards the centerline of the blade) angle that many sharpeners use. E.g., if the edge has been knocked to the outside (by which I mean away from the centerline of the blade), just wipe the hard leather along the blade a few times, starting just below the new location (when the skates are upside down), and eventually brushing it vertical or slightly inwards.

If that sounds too hard, your pro sharpener may be willing to do this for you (using some type of flat stone) at low cost, because it's very fast.

Don't be surprised if he gives you a stern lecture, and tells you that you can save future hassle by paying $8 - $10 (in the U.S.) for a pair of hard plastic guards, and using them to walk to and from the ice. He is right. That will also reduce how often you have to sharpen.

Have fun!

[sampaguita]

It makes complete sense. You may have walked to or from the ice on the blades off ice without guards, which knocked the pointy part of the edge over to the sides, or you did some very strong stops, though that is more common for hockey skaters. (There is a slight possibility, your sharpening pro forgot to re-point the sharpening burr - which is the knocked over tip of the edge - in the right direction in the first place, but not if he's well experienced.)

If you can get something like a piece of hard leather, or a fine grain flat grinding stone ($1 or $2 at the dollar store), use it to push the edges back to vertical, or the 5 degree or so inwards (towards the centerline of the blade) angle that many sharpeners use. E.g., if the edge has been knocked to the outside (by which I mean away from the centerline of the blade), just wipe the hard leather along the blade a few times, starting just below the new location (when the skates are upside down), and eventually brushing it vertical or slightly inwards.

If that sounds too hard, your pro sharpener may be willing to do this for you (using some type of flat stone) at low cost, because it's very fast.

Don't be surprised if he gives you a stern lecture, and tells you that you can save future hassle by paying $8 - $10 (in the U.S.) for a pair of hard plastic guards, and using them to walk to and from the ice. He is right. That will also reduce how often you have to sharpen.

Have fun!

No, Query, my blades never touched anything but ice. They were well taken care of, and when I stepped on bad ice (before making any stops whatsoever) they were already slipping...so I wonder what went wrong...

[icedancer]

It sounds to me like the ROH is just wrong - too flat for regular skating.

Take them back to the pro shop or ask your coach about them.

[sampaguita]

It sounds to me like the ROH is just wrong - too flat for regular skating.

Take them back to the pro shop or ask your coach about them.

Thanks icedancer. Speaking of ROH, is it theoretically possible to adjust to a shallower ROH? Or is there really one ROH that is best for a skater's weight, height, skill level, ice quality, etc?

EDIT: My blades are *supposed* to have the same ROH as my last sharpening. What really irritates me is that the sharpener just told me (after I complained about my newly sharpened blade slipping) that my previous sharpening was 3/8", when I vividly remember him telling me he used 7/16", just as I had instructed then (hence that's the ROH I asked him to do this time). Whatever ROH he used then, I liked it -- I just don't know what it is.

[Query]

One way or another, the sharp part being on the side instead of the bottom is a problem, probably the problem. A sharp edge in that direction isn't useful. That needs to be fixed.

I'd hate to blame that on the sharpener without evidence. They always deal with the burr; it isn't something that just applies to figure skates, so it would be hard to forget. Regardless, he can probably fix it in a minute or so, if you point the misaligned edge out to him.

[SynchKat]

Did you mention how old you blades are?  How often you have them sharpened? If there is no more blade to sharpen they won't hold a sharpening

[sampaguita]

SynchKat, the blades have only been sharpened once (well, twice now), so still lots of life left.

Query: I'll try to talk to my sharpener again about this. I hope he'll fix it.

[fsk8r]

Thanks icedancer. Speaking of ROH, is it theoretically possible to adjust to a shallower ROH? Or is there really one ROH that is best for a skater's weight, height, skill level, ice quality, etc?

EDIT: My blades are *supposed* to have the same ROH as my last sharpening. What really irritates me is that the sharpener just told me (after I complained about my newly sharpened blade slipping) that my previous sharpening was 3/8", when I vividly remember him telling me he used 7/16", just as I had instructed then (hence that's the ROH I asked him to do this time). Whatever ROH he used then, I liked it -- I just don't know what it is.

You can adjust to different radiuses. Although there'll be very little different between 6/16ths and 7/16ths, I didn't even notice when I switched from 8/16ths to 7/16ths. If the blades are significantly flatter you'll start sliding but you just need to get over onto the edge more (like they used to when skating figures) and bend more. I've seen some coaches be able to slide out into the splits on their blades as they're that blunt but have no problem holding an edge.

[sampaguita]

The sharpener wasn't there when I was on the ice yesterday, so I didn't get to ask him about my blades, but here's what I found. If I put my blades directly on an edge, it bites -- but if I put it down on a flat, and then try to use body lean to edge it (like what I used to do), it ends up slipping...what do you think about it?

[Doubletoe]

Sometimes you just get an uneven sharpening.  Just have them re-done.  And there's no reason why you should need anything deeper than a 7/16" sharpening.  1/2" (8/16") is the standard figure skating ROH that has always been used on my blades and they have always felt fine. . . except when I just got a sharpening that was "off."  It's an art, not a science, and sharpeners aren't perfect.

[Query]

If I put my blades directly on an edge, it bites -- but if I put it down on a flat, and then try to use body lean to edge it (like what I used to do), it ends up slipping...what do you think about it?

This is still consistent with the edge being still present but having been knocked down (or was never straightened in the first place). It's the only probable explanation that explains the sharp edge on the side, and not on the bottom.

Resharpening would fix that. So would playing with the burr. The latter is faster and therefore probably cheaper, and doesn't wear down the blade as much. But either way gets the job done. Find out when the sharpener will be there, and come.

"Just do it."

Either that or make a habit of skating with your body sideways.

[Janie]

I had this same problem recently. I got my blades sharpened but I felt even more slippery than before. Both my coach and the rink guy (and the sharpener when I went back eventually) felt the blade and said they are definitely sharp. The edges seemed pretty even too. I was too scared to go back to the sharpener (because he's old and cranky), I didn't want to seem like I was accusing him of doing a bad job. Coach convinced me to, saying to ask him to please take a look at the blades because I'm slipping and I don't know why.

So I went to the sharpener asking him to perhaps change the ROH to 7/16" (he usually does 1/2"), and he grumbled that there's no way I'd feel that difference, he'll have to make it even deeper, but he doesn't see how 1/2" would not be enough for me when it's good for everyone else. So he resharpened it and now it's fine. I have no idea if he just resharpened it with 1/2" or really gave me something deeper. I also have no idea if I did something to the blades, or if I need a deep ROH or if the sharperner simply messed up the previous sharpening in someway. I have come to the conclusion that there's no perfect sharpener. I myself have been to a sharpener whom most people recommended and got a bad sharpening (you could actually feel it). I have two friends who got their blades sharpened with someone I just heard about recently and was very highly recommended, yet they are now both complaining about their blades. The current sharpener is the rink sharpener who many people discourage going to, but my coach trusts, and I've just decided to stick with him. At least he's responsible, he ended up refusing payment when I asked for that resharpening.

Point being, I think the only thing you can do is to just go back and ask for a resharpening (unless you want to try the burr). It doesn't hurt to resharpen it (well it'll hurt your wallet a little and use up one sharpening of your blade life), but it's better than to keep on wondering what could possibly be wrong when you don't really have anyway of finding out, and not be able to skate because it's so slippery.

Hope your blade problems will be fixed soon!

[sarahspins]

Funny thing is this is happening to me now too.. I just had my blades sharpened last week, I didn't skate much until this week - I noticed it mostly starting Monday, I felt really "off", I wasn't sliding exactly but nothing felt secure, which was weird since I'd had such a great week last week.. Tuesday I did a power skating class and never really felt 100%.  All of this week spins were horrible, jumps were sketchy, and moves were a little shaky.

I had a lesson today and my coach confirmed I basically have no edges, it's clear looking at my jump tracings and spin entrances - I didn't suspect it since they were just sharpened, but it's obvious that not only are my blades not sharp at all through my spin rockers on both blades but they were sharpened to a much shallower hollow than I am used to as well.. so I've been trying to skate on dull edges with a shallower hollow too.. not a good combo.

Most sharpeners will fix your sharpening for free if you lodge a complaint within a certain amount of time.  Our sharpener is only at the rink one day a week and wasn't there this week, so I have to wait until next week to get mine sorted out - until then I have instructions not to jump or do any flying spins.

[ONskater74]

Wow, this is weird. I started out with a 5/8th's grind, then went to a 3/4 inch. I'm not doing anything beyond a waltz jump and slow spins. But I never have issues with sideways slippage when I'm on an edge, I sharpen every 2 months and skate 15-20 hrs/month on all kinds of ice indoor and outdoor. I have Ultima blades, and they stay razor sharp forever it seems

[SynchKat]

I felt similar on occasion since my last sharpening.  I noticed one day I have some ice stuck on my blade like as if it had melted onto my blade.

I just trust my sharpener to do what he feels is right for me, and always is right.  I also like dull blades so even though I skate a fair bit I only get a sharpening every 3 or 4 months. 

[Robin]

The sharpener is putting the blame on me for requesting a 7/16" ROH, despite the fact that I requested for the same ROH last time and had no problems. He claims he used a 3/8" sharpening (his preferred ROH) for me for my last sharpening, but I distinctly remember him telling me then that he did 7/16", as I had requested. (Unfortunately, despite this whole incident really pissing me off, I can't find another sharpener. He's the only sharpener around, and to his credit, he sharpens well.)

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The guy who sharpened your skates, in the interest of customer service, to just re-do your sharpening at no cost. If he won't, he's being a jerk. And clearly he doesn't sharpen well if your blades aren't the way you like them. There are many shops around the country who will sharpen skates that are mailed to them if you're sick of this guy. The dearth of good sharpeners stinks, though, even here in skate-happy Massachusetts (which is why I convinced my machinist husband to by a Blademaster machine and start sharpening skates. He even uses precision machinist's tools to measure for accuracy. But that's another story.)

[sarahspins]

Just an update on my skates.. my sharpener fixed them (for free) - the ROH was the problem, and  I suspect that was combined with a more aggressive than average stoning to make them feel extra unsharp when I got them back the first time.

They are back to being nice and "grabby" again.. jump and spin entrances are no longer skidding/slipping and scary, turns feel more secure (even those pesky backwards brackets!), and everything in my world is well again  

[Query]

I would love to know how the original poster made out. Did you return to the sharpener, and were they fixed?

[sampaguita]

sarahspins: Glad to know your skates are working fine now!

Robin: Unfortunately, he's the only sharpener where I'm from. Unless I'm going to ship my skates back and forth to the US...

Query: I was supposed to have my skates resharpened, but when I skated on them, they were actually gripping the ice better. The right blade doesn't grip as well as the left, but it is much better than before. Interestingly, the blades actually FEEL more dull than post-sharpening when I touch them, but they seem to be gripping better. I might just leave my blades as is unless they bother me again.

I have 3 guesses on what happened:
1. The edges actually needed to be redone, just as you said, but skating did what stoning was supposed to do.
2. Something was wrong with the ice.
3. The sharpener gave me a different ROH before, and I was able to adjust by learning to put my foot down directly on an edge (instead of on a flat, and then using body lean to move to the edge).

[sarahspins]

2. Something was wrong with the ice.

The temperature of the ice can have a HUGE impact on how it feels... in rinks that can't regulate temperature well, the effects can be dramatic. 

[Janie]

The temperature of the ice can have a HUGE impact on how it feels... in rinks that can't regulate temperature well, the effects can be dramatic.

Yeah, one of the possible reasons my coach came up with when I was having the same problem, was that it had been colder than usual, so the ice is harder. She thinks so because she has another skater who said she needed a sharpening, but it hadn't been that long after she just got one.