Possible jump layouts for Bronze program?

[fsk8r]

Right now I am thinking camel-upright-change backspin and then either a sit spin with a change of position or just a single backspin.  I'd like to do the sit spin with a change of position, but I don't really sit in my sit spins (though when I change position I tend to get lower, if I don't fall over- it needs work) so I need to tape it a few times and see what it looks like.  I wish we still got 3 spins.

My coach has selected 3 spins for me to work on for this seasons bronze program: camel-sit, back spin to forward spin (backward entry counts for more in IJS) and sit spin with a change of position. Her plan is to put the strongest two into the program (my plan is that I'll swap the most reliable for an upright if it doesn't go well in warmup but only because I'll be competing under IJS and want something called). But it's worth bearing in mind what's considered harder under IJS as the judges all tend to think in terms of IJS even when judging 6.0.
If you've got time, I would play around with spins (especially if they're your stronger elements) and see if you can come up with some different options so you can then add your two strongest to the program. I'm really liking the broken leg sit spin and it's inspiring me to play around with some other sit positions.

Also I don't understand how you can do waltz-salchow unless there's a change of feet and a turn occuring. I've been doing waltz-tap toe - salchow (with the 3turn into the salchow) which is a nice flowing sequence and adds to the interest of a single salchow if done in a program.

[Skittl1321]

My coach has selected 3 spins for me to work on for this seasons bronze program: camel-sit, back spin to forward spin (backward entry counts for more in IJS) and sit spin with a change of position. Her plan is to put the strongest two into the program (my plan is that I'll swap the most reliable for an upright if it doesn't go well in warmup but only because I'll be competing under IJS and want something called). But it's worth bearing in mind what's considered harder under IJS as the judges all tend to think in terms of IJS even when judging 6.0.
If you've got time, I would play around with spins (especially if they're your stronger elements) and see if you can come up with some different options so you can then add your two strongest to the program. I'm really liking the broken leg sit spin and it's inspiring me to play around with some other sit positions.

Also I don't understand how you can do waltz-salchow unless there's a change of feet and a turn occuring. I've been doing waltz-tap toe - salchow (with the 3turn into the salchow) which is a nice flowing sequence and adds to the interest of a single salchow if done in a program.

Waltz-salchow uses a three turn, just like if you do the toe-tap.


For spins, I'm working on a layback spin to do as my second spin, but I don't know how long I can wait for it.

I can't use back spin to foward spin (does that really count as harder than forward to back? It is so much easier! The foot change isn't tricky like forward to back) because the camel-upright-backspin is already a change foot spin, so I don't think that an upright change foot spin has a different 'code' or whatever.  (Not being able to do a flying spin really eliminates the number of spins of a different nature you can do. I have a sort of decent flying sit, if you scale it down to the level I'm at.)  I can't do camel-sit (though I can work on it) and sit-upright or camel-upright no longer counts as a two position spin, so those are out.

I'll probably go with camel-upright-backspin and the change position sit.  Even though my backspin is a lot better than the change position sit, I think I'm more apt to get 'difficult' spin credit on the change position.. 

[davincisop]

This is for competition, not for test.  I have already passed the test, and did a loop then.  (You don't need to do a loop- but you need to do either a loop, a flip, or a lutz.  Most people go for loop because it is easiest.)  Sorry you didn't pass, but yes, the three jumps need to be distinct jumps. I would be really upset with my coach if they didn't know that.

Ah my mistake! Misread your original post.

[sk8lady]

You should trust your coach more than a stranger on the internet.  I guess my final comment on the matter is that I find it really disrespectful of your competitors to intentionally do more than what is allowed in the level in the hopes the judges don't remember to take the deduction and reward you for the elements.

I have really nice spins- I'd do really well to have 3 of them in my program, because I spin better than most of the other bronze skaters in the area.  It would make me look like a much better skater to have more spins than jumps in my program.  But the rules say I can only do 2.  So I only do 2.

Final comment: If you are a lawyer, as I am, and review the wording in the rule there is a difference in wording between the mandatory deductions, such as time, etc., and the deduction for an additional element. Usually, a change in wording such as this one means there is a difference in meaning; I am inclined to believe the deduction CAN be taken, but if the judge does not, it is allowable, for which there could be a variety of reasons. There is nothing 'disrespectful' in understanding the rules and attempting to do the best program you can.

Clearly, this is all off-topic since the topic was what you should do in YOUR program, which I think you ought to be worrying about more than MY program, with which which I am perfectly happy. My apologies to other readers for responding to you in the first place.

[Skittl1321]

Final comment: If you are a lawyer, as I am, and review the wording in the rule there is a difference in wording between the mandatory deductions, such as time, etc., and the deduction for an additional element.

As a lawyer, can you explain to me how the word "maximum" means "but you can have more than that if you want"

There is nothing 'disrespectful' in understanding the rules and attempting to do the best program you can.

Clearly we are just going to disagree here.  Doing more than the maximum doesn't mean you understand the rules better than others. 

[Doubletoe]

Okay, supposing I do my 'loop' (which is more of a 'bless her heart, she's trying to do a loop')

Salchow-toe loop
Loop
Salchow
Toe-loop

Would it be better to do a waltz-toe loop or waltz-salchow, just so- if the judges do look at that as a combo, I have two combos, and if they don't consider waltz jumps to be jumps I have a fun connecting move?  Is one of those considered 'harder' than the other?  I think I'm leaning to waltz-salchow.

If you do a waltz-toeloop, it will seem more like a jump combination than a waltz-salchow.  If you want to do a waltz-salchow and make it look like a sequence instead of two separate jumps, I'd suggest doing waltz--> side toe tap --> 3-turn --> salchow. 

[Skittl1321]

If you do a waltz-toeloop, it will seem more like a jump combination than a waltz-salchow.  If you want to do a waltz-salchow and make it look like a sequence instead of two separate jumps, I'd suggest doing waltz--> side toe tap --> 3-turn --> salchow.

Hmm, that's two votes for the toe tap.  I feel like that makes it a lot easier, but I can do that too  
Guess it will just depend what fits the music best, but good to have all the options laid out.  Should probably stick with waltz-toe so no 3-turn is needed.

I actually emailed the adult committee chairs and suggested they consider revising the rulebook to make clear whether waltz jumps were allowable in the bronze level. I'm really interested in that, because it does say only single jumps, but why would they require it on the test?  I know a lot of skaters who skate at test level, so with a loop, but not the ability to do a loop as a second jump of a combo yet.  The 6.0 levels really get the short end of the stick when it come to rules clarifications!

[Doubletoe]

The "only single jumps" means no double jumps are allowed.  It doesn't mean you can't do unlisted half revolution jumps.

The reason I suggested the side toe tap between the waltz jump and the 3-turn-salchow is because a side toe tap creates a hop and rhythm that is typical of a jump sequence.  That would ensure that your waltz-salchow is seen as a jump sequence and not counted as two separate jumps.

Two things regarding the change-foot upright spin:

(1) A back upright to forward upright spin is MUCH more difficult than a forward upright to back upright.  That's because you are not allowed to create a new entrance edge on the forward spin when you step down after the backspin.  If you can step down onto the left back inside edge instead of left forward outside edge and go into the forward spin with no more than shoulder distance between the two spin centers, they will count it as one spin, but otherwise they will consider it two separate spins (a back upright followed by a forward upright). 

(2) A change foot upright spin does NOT count the same as a Camel-upright/back upright spin  You can do both in your program if you want to.  The difference is that one is an upright spin with a change of foot (IJS code CUSp) and the other is a combination spin with a change of foot and change of position (CCoSp).  Different code = different spin classification.  What would count as the same spin would be if you did a back upright and separately also did a forward upright.  They both count as upright spin (USp).

[fsk8r]

Waltz-salchow uses a three turn, just like if you do the toe-tap.


For spins, I'm working on a layback spin to do as my second spin, but I don't know how long I can wait for it.

I can't use back spin to foward spin (does that really count as harder than forward to back? It is so much easier! The foot change isn't tricky like forward to back) because the camel-upright-backspin is already a change foot spin, so I don't think that an upright change foot spin has a different 'code' or whatever.  (Not being able to do a flying spin really eliminates the number of spins of a different nature you can do. I have a sort of decent flying sit, if you scale it down to the level I'm at.)  I can't do camel-sit (though I can work on it) and sit-upright or camel-upright no longer counts as a two position spin, so those are out.

I'll probably go with camel-upright-backspin and the change position sit.  Even though my backspin is a lot better than the change position sit, I think I'm more apt to get 'difficult' spin credit on the change position..

I think camel to backspin is different from a change foot upright as it's a change of position AND change of foot. Check the rule clarification as the UK ones say we can have a change or foot OR change of position, which implies to me (not getting into the lawyer debate) that you can have one or the other but not both (my coach hasn't suggested it and she knows I work on it as I like messing around with camel-sit-upright-backspin - makes me practice everything in one go!).
And the back entry being difficult does seem quite weird for an upright spin, but for sit and camel I'm quite happy to accept that back entry is harder, but only because I can't do either yet!

Doubletoe has just posted the same as I've typed my reply.  I would still check the rules on whether you can change foot and position.
And ironically I have managed to find a difficult variation on back upright to forward upright as my legs get tangled and I just switch feet while crossed. My coach doesn't mind, but I'd rather I put it right so I could get my feet untangled!

[Skittl1321]

The "only single jumps" means no double jumps are allowed.  It doesn't mean you can't do unlisted half revolution jumps.

But as someone pointed out, because they are unlisted jump they 'don't count'.  So a waltz-toe is the same as a toe loop. If a toe loop is also used as a solo jump, then you've repeated the same jump without it being in combination.

Thanks for pointing out CUSp CCoSP are different.  That makes it very clear which spins I'll use!  I like the change position sit spin, but my sit position isn't ideal.

Guess I'm weird with the change foot spins- I find going back to foward (while maintaining speed) to be so much easier.  My spins don't recenter.  The change from forward to backward is scary to me, but I've finally got it.

[Skittl1321]

Check the rule clarification as the UK ones say we can have a change or foot OR change of position, which implies to me (not getting into the lawyer debate) that you can have one or the other but not both
Doubletoe has just posted the same as I've typed my reply.  I would still check the rules on whether you can change foot and position.

You are right about the 'or', that is exactly what that word means.  So are you saying that by UK rules you can't do camel-upright-backspin as a valid element?  Now I have to go rulebook digging again.  (I came by this spin when I really needed to practice camels and really needed to practice foot changes.  It lets me do both.)

And yeah- I see back entry being more difficult for sit and camel!  Although not really the sit, for me it isn't the entry, but the position, I can't bend my left leg!


ETA: The rulebooks says "freedom to pick spin from allowable spins" and then in the spins section has
"Spin combination: Must consist of changes of foot and/or position as specified. A change of foot and a change of position may be made either at the same time or separately."  Which has the and/or, not just or.

"Spin in one position: May change feet (if allowed), but may not change position."

So even though both of mine change foot, it would be a spin combination and a spin in one position.    YAY!

[Skittl1321]

Here is a new question:

So the rulebook says
"The concluding upright position at the end of the spin (final wind-up) is not considered to be another position, regardless of the number of revolutions, as long as no additional feature (change of edge, variation of position, etc.) is attempted in the final wind-up."

So a sit-upright no longer counts.  Is 8 revolutions still considered a feature?  If I did sit then an 8 revolution upright, would that count as a change position spin?  (I'd probably rather just do the camel though.)

[Doubletoe]

But as someone pointed out, because they are unlisted jump they 'don't count'.  So a waltz-toe is the same as a toe loop. If a toe loop is also used as a solo jump, then you've repeated the same jump without it being in combination.

Thanks for pointing out CUSp CCoSP are different.  That makes it very clear which spins I'll use!  I like the change position sit spin, but my sit position isn't ideal.

Guess I'm weird with the change foot spins- I find going back to foward (while maintaining speed) to be so much easier.  My spins don't recenter.  The change from forward to backward is scary to me, but I've finally got it.

An unlisted jump wouldn't "count" if there were values assigned to each jump, but under 6.0 there are no values assigned, so there is no "count" vs. "doesn't count" (although I've seen that in competitions where Bronze is judged under IJS, they actually assign a value to the waltz jump).  Under 6.0, it's what you did and how well you did it vs. what other skaters did and how well they did it.  If you do a toe loop in combination with a waltz jump, it will be considered more difficult than if you did just a toe loop, so use your waltz jumps and any other half jumps you may have, as long as you can do them well in combination.

Regardless of whether your spin centers are close together or far apart, you need to be able to get into the forward spin without a visible LFO edge if you're going to do a back upright to forward upright change foot spin.  Unless you have a coach look at it and say you're doing it right, I'd play it safe and do forward to backward.

BTW, in Bronze in the U.S. you are absolutely allowed to do a combination spin with change of position and change of foot (like your camel-upright/back upright).  The only kind of spin you aren't allowed to do is a flying spin. 

Even though a sit-upright is considered the same as a sit spin, I would recommend holding the upright position for 2 revolutions after coming up out of the sit spin because it shows control and also gives you more revolutions on that foot.  But the 8-revolution feature doesn't count for an upright spin unless you do it in a difficult variation of position (like a Y spin or Biellmann), so don't bother with that.

[Skittl1321]

If you do a toe loop in combination with a waltz jump, it will be considered more difficult than if you did just a toe loop, so use your waltz jumps and any other half jumps you may have, as long as you can do them well in combination.

So then, since a three jump combo is allowed- would you think waltz-toe-tap-waltz-toe loop is better than just waltz toe? 

So the jumps would be
loop (blech)
salchow-toe loop
salchow
waltz-toe tap-waltz-toe


I won't be doing a sit spin at all, so holding the upright isn't really an issue.  Since only two spins are allowed I think doing a change foot spin is more difficult than doing a sit spin.  So I'll do a change foot upright (not sure which) and I'll do camel-upright-backspin (need to start working on my 3-turn entry into camel rather than the wind-up, because I can never seem to fit a wind-up entry into a program.)

[Doubletoe]

So then, since a three jump combo is allowed- would you think waltz-toe-tap-waltz-toe loop is better than just waltz toe? 

So the jumps would be
loop (blech)
salchow-toe loop
salchow
waltz-toe tap-waltz-toe


I won't be doing a sit spin at all, so holding the upright isn't really an issue.  Since only two spins are allowed I think doing a change foot spin is more difficult than doing a sit spin.  So I'll do a change foot upright (not sure which) and I'll do camel-upright-backspin (need to start working on my 3-turn entry into camel rather than the wind-up, because I can never seem to fit a wind-up entry into a program.)

I think that sounds like a good jump and spin assortment.  For your camel-upright/back upright, just be sure you can hit the camel position and hold it for 2 revolutions before going into the upright position.  You don't want to miss the camel and end up doing upright/back upright, which you already have later in your program.

[Skittl1321]

You don't want to miss the camel and end up doing upright/back upright, which you already have later in your program.

That's a good point. 2 revolutions shouldn't be a problem, but more than 3 in a camel sometimes can be, but I'll keep working on the change position sit just in case it seems like a safer bet than having the change foot upright later on.  I still feel that I should try for a camel no matter what, since I'm not trying for the flip or lutz.  There has to be some more difficult element for the judges to see that you aren't skating a PB levels still.

Thanks!


I cannot believe I let this thread convince me I need to do a loop.  I am not kidding when I say I told my coach I was never doing a loop again (and have only done like 15 since my test, all under group lesson subsitutes)

[Skittl1321]

P.S.  Actual wording for Bronze jump limitations is, "All single jumps are permitted (except Axel)"  In other words, there is no rule against including half jumps or unlisted jumps.

The rulebook online states "Only single jumps are allowed"

To me -only- implies no half, but I can't imagine that is what they actually mean.  I don't really think any judge is going to see a waltz-toe and say "waltz is unlisted, that was a toe loop" and then see a toe loop and say "repetition of jump not in combination, no credit, deduction"  but based on the wording, it -could- happen...  It would just be nice if there wasn't a need to guess what all the rules meant.

[Doubletoe]

The rulebook online states "Only single jumps are allowed"

To me -only- implies no half, but I can't imagine that is what they actually mean.  I don't really think any judge is going to see a waltz-toe and say "waltz is unlisted, that was a toe loop" and then see a toe loop and say "repetition of jump not in combination, no credit, deduction"  but based on the wording, it -could- happen...  It would just be nice if there wasn't a need to guess what all the rules meant.

Look here:  http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultSinglesWBPChart.pdf

P.S.  If a half jump or unlisted jump doesn't count as a jump, then they can't say it's a type of jump that isn't allowed, LOL!  Don't let your brain explode over this.

[Skittl1321]

What takes precedence, that or the rulebook?
(It does worry me that pre-bronze says half and single jumps are allowed, where bronze doesn't mention half at all.)


This is pretty much exactly why USFSA drives me crazy! Why is the WBP wording different in two different places?

[Doubletoe]

What takes precedence, that or the rulebook?
(It does worry me that pre-bronze says half and single jumps are allowed, where bronze doesn't mention half at all.)

I remember a few years ago (I think it was 2007) there was a new rule that got passed saying that skaters could not do more than 2 of any jump, but they somehow failed to update the balanced program charts to include it.  As a result, they had to allow multiple jump repetitions at Adult Nationals.   Anyway, I'm sure you will get a response from your adult committee vice-chair.