Figure skating of today...thoughts?

ONskater74 · March 18, 2013, 07:49:04 PM

I don't even have a TV, so I've no dog in the ratings fight

I guess what I like about a more classical style of skating is the visceral response one would have if attending the opera, the ballet, the symphony, as the curtain closes and the place leaps to its feet in thunderous ovation... The music is music I personally love, the gracefulness is beautiful, the timing and choreography is precise, even Dick Button comments on the beauty of a slow spin because the line of the skater's back is so appealing. He makes a walley into something special. I watched a number of the programs from 2013 Worlds and it is assembly line skating, just stock off-the-shelf elements fastened together with flexible wire and arranged on the ice to different music.
The picture is much clearer if you watch it on youtube, for some reason...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djadlQLK_ow

sarahspins · March 18, 2013, 08:04:51 PM

John Curry has a balletic quality that few men have... or could even train to have, and that was as true back then as it is now.. and that style is apart from his wonderful edge work, it's just that most men aren't built that way, and they don't move that way. It's not really a statement about "skating today" as much as it is about pointing out the exceptions to what is more common.

Your comment about assembly line skating.. I guess if all you are LOOKING for are the required elements, then that's what you see... but if you aren't experienced enough to look for the nuances like the edgework and how someone uses their blades, you won't see them. I've honestly never been the biggest Yuna Kim fan (she just never did much for me inspiration wise leading up to her olympic gold) but I can say watching her world's performance over the weekend, I sat there thinking to myself "this just isn't fair" because her skating skills are really just that much above everyone else and no one else really had a chance of winning worlds against her - the speed she skates with, the ease with which she does it, it's effortless - and obviously lost on some viewers.

Skittl1321 · March 18, 2013, 08:21:52 PM

I think over time people forget about the bad skaters of the past and remember the very few on the top. Once in a generation types.

Well, we still have those one or two great ones. But I also think a sport should be athletic. If you only want artistry, go to a show.

icedancer · March 18, 2013, 08:36:06 PM

Quote from: Skittl1321 on March 18, 2013, 08:21:52 PM
I think over time people forget about the bad skaters of the past and remember the very few on the top. Once in a generation types.

Well, we still have those one or two great ones. But I also think a sport should be athletic. If you only want artistry, go to a show.

You took the words right out of my mouth Skitt!

John Curry was amazing then and now (but of course there will be the inevitable comparisons to Toller Cranston - also an artist on the ice and off - ) John Curry is the skater who all other skaters are compared to actually - in terms of the PCS marks. It goes something like, "If John Curry is a 10 then skater x,y z is ____ compared to that quality of skating."

karne · March 19, 2013, 07:07:31 AM

I can recognise that Kim's skating skills are nice, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy her. She's flat-out boring to me. I thought a lot of the criticisms that she was expressionless and emotionless were pretty well founded IMO.

I was rewatching the top 4 LPs from US Nationals Men the other day, and it struck me that I really enjoyed watching Joshua, Ross and Max, but not Jeremy, even though he arguably had the best skating skills of the four. The reason? Joshua, Ross and Max were all smiling, enjoying themselves, looking like they were doing something they loved. Jeremy looked like he was being tortured to death. If it comes down to big jumps vs tortured artists, give me the big jumps any day. I recognise that "Bring Him Home" is quite a sad song, but his emoting was wayyyyy OTT.

I think some fans need to understand a bit more that not everyone will like the skaters you like, not everyone will see the skaters in the same way you do. I actually had someone tell me flat-out after Nationals that I was stupid for liking Max Aaron's skating since "his skating skills should score a 2 if that". Hmm. But I enjoy his speed, his enjoyment, his energy far more than I enjoy watching Patrick Chan splat all over the ice in spite of his "oh-so-perfect" edges.

Robin · March 27, 2013, 07:33:06 PM

Quote from: Sunnyside_Skater on February 21, 2013, 12:07:23 AM
I love this conversation!

I remember watching the 1988 Olympics - the "Battle of the Brians", Katarina Witt, Gordeeva & Grinkov....I was captivated by both the artistry and the technical aspects. To me, that was the height of figure skating at its best. There was such a beauty and artistry in their programs. I don't enjoy watching figure skating on TV as much today because it seems like it's just jump, jump, jump....

I agree with you completely. The 1988 Olympics was truly the high-water mark of skating. And they still did figures! (I am of the school that says skating has suffered tremendously since the demise of figures. They still should be required for testing purposes. Moves in the field are a poor substitute. But I digress.) In contrast, the choreography of today tends to be uninteresing in its own way. It's all the same because everyone has to do the same things to stay competitive with the point system. Lots of beautiful moves are eliminated because they have no point value. Most skaters also either don't have any musical sense or are not allowed to develop it because for the most part, the music may as well be background noise because the skaters rarely express the music--which tends to not suit the skater to begin with. You could interchange any music and their programs would still be the same. I am not even interested in watching skating on TV any more. I would rather watch someone do a beautiful soaring waltz jump or delayed axel that suits the music than a succession of triple jumps and three Bielmann spins--which is ugly anyway.

Robin · March 27, 2013, 07:34:54 PM

Quote from: ONskater74 on February 16, 2013, 10:23:44 PM
It really begs the question: What material difference does it make under either scoring system whether a skater is unartistic and racks up points during Compulsory Figures, or whether they rack up points by just throwing in as many triples and quads as they can good or otherwise? Is it just competitive showjumping? The fact that a skater can do almost nothing of artistic merit and yet have staggeringly high technical marks based on jumping alone...he fails to land several jumps cleanly... what have we really gained in net value to the sport?

My two cents: nothing.

AgnesNitt · March 27, 2013, 08:50:44 PM

The one thing that struck me in watching the John Curry video above was how he really centers his spins. I've watched a lot of modern skaters and they seem to precess around a center point rather than center the spin.

sarahspins · March 27, 2013, 10:59:24 PM

Quote from: karne on March 19, 2013, 07:07:31 AM
I can recognise that Kim's skating skills are nice, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy her. She's flat-out boring to me. I thought a lot of the criticisms that she was expressionless and emotionless were pretty well founded IMO.

I don't disagree with you there at all

My comment was more because of the skating itself, not necessarily her performance - there's simply not enough emotion/connection for me, and to be honest she looks almost like she's bored. That's why i said it's not fair - because skaters who give more of themselves in their performance aren't rewarded enough against that.

Doubletoe · March 28, 2013, 01:46:07 PM

Quote from: Robin on March 27, 2013, 07:33:06 PM
I agree with you completely. The 1988 Olympics was truly the high-water mark of skating. And they still did figures! (I am of the school that says skating has suffered tremendously since the demise of figures. They still should be required for testing purposes. Moves in the field are a poor substitute. But I digress.) In contrast, the choreography of today tends to be uninteresing in its own way. It's all the same because everyone has to do the same things to stay competitive with the point system. Lots of beautiful moves are eliminated because they have no point value. Most skaters also either don't have any musical sense or are not allowed to develop it because for the most part, the music may as well be background noise because the skaters rarely express the music--which tends to not suit the skater to begin with. You could interchange any music and their programs would still be the same. I am not even interested in watching skating on TV any more. I would rather watch someone do a beautiful soaring waltz jump or delayed axel that suits the music than a succession of triple jumps and three Bielmann spins--which is ugly anyway.

So which moves do you miss that have been "eliminated" due to lack of points?
With non-musical skaters, you could *always* interchange any music and their programs would be the same, even back in the 6.0 days. Nothing has changed there.
Competition programs are meant to exhibit the highest level of difficulty; that's what competitions are for. To see beautiful soaring waltz jumps or delayed axels that are simply meant to express the music, you should go to an ice show or watch the exhibitions after the competitions, which are precisely for that purpose.

icedancer · March 28, 2013, 03:12:38 PM

Quote from: Doubletoe on March 28, 2013, 01:46:07 PM
So which moves do you miss that have been "eliminated" due to lack of points?
With non-musical skaters, you could *always* interchange any music and their programs would be the same, even back in the 6.0 days. Nothing has changed there.
Competition programs are meant to exhibit the highest level of difficulty; that's what competitions are for. To see beautiful soaring waltz jumps or delayed axels that are simply meant to express the music, you should go to an ice show or watch the exhibitions after the competitions, which are precisely for that purpose.

I'm with you Doubletoe - a competition is just that - a competition!! Otherwise it would just be a personality contest or an artist showcase (nothing wrong with that and that does exist of course!).

I think of all of those big empty programs in the mid-90s - yuck - and then someone would come along and just nail it!!

It hasn't changed. There have always been great skaters and there still are - I just wish we could actually watch them on television and not have to go looking for them on the internet, etc. Cripes!

Purple Sparkly · March 28, 2013, 05:09:58 PM

At least we have the option of looking on the internet for more skating! Imagine if we were still in the 80's with no internet. We would be stuck with what was on tv. Even now it can be tricky to find some of the skaters of yesteryear that weren't in the top ten before the era of the internet.

Quote from: karne on March 19, 2013, 07:07:31 AM
I can recognise that Kim's skating skills are nice, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy her. She's flat-out boring to me. I thought a lot of the criticisms that she was expressionless and emotionless were pretty well founded IMO.

My coach, who was herself and Olympic competitor, was at Worlds this year with a prime seat (she works for the media). She said the same thing about Kim. Great skating, great jumps, little expression, boring.

Patrick Chan at least has some expression. But I'm tired of seeing his bare chest.

sampaguita · March 28, 2013, 07:34:02 PM

Quote from: Purple Sparkly on March 28, 2013, 05:09:58 PM
Patrick Chan at least has some expression. But I'm tired of seeing his bare chest.

LoL! Me, I just look at his blades, haha!

Speaking of artistry, though...I think that personally, I see artistry in jumps. There's something about the moves that precede each jump. Whenever I see Yuzuru Hanyu do his counter-entrance to his 3A in his Parisienne Walkways SP, I am just in awe. Superb.

Same thing for Yuna -- there's something about the flow in her jump entrances that is just different from all the rest. There's this ease in which she does them, a grace which I don't find in other skaters (say, Kanako Murakami).

For me, the definition of non-artistry is Evgeni Plushenko. It was always quads, quads, quads for him. I hated how he puts all the jumps first and then does all the spins after.

Doubletoe · March 28, 2013, 07:42:43 PM

I agree with you, Sampaguita! And for those skaters who don't have the amazing flow of Chan or Kim, they can make up for it in characterization and performance. I don't just mean posturing, but real characterization while still executing difficult step sequences and transitions, like what we see from Javier Fernandez.

ONskater74 · April 01, 2013, 08:59:15 PM

http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-63-audrey-weisiger-part-2/

I just listened to this episode , as well as the first part, and felt it would be useful to the discussion. Of particular note is the concept of breaking figure skating down into its various disciplines. The athletic side where jumpers could burn off excess testosterone and knock themselves out "crash ans burn" was the term used. Then the artistic side for the John Curry's and Janet Lynn's. I would add the third category of Figures, again as a separate discipline. A skater could compete in one, two or all three. But the disciplines would be regarded as separate. It would enable a lot of great artistic skaters, of all ages, to remain competitive, when the quads elude them. The obsession with jumping is keeping a lot of people from pursuing skating because there is no possible chance of winning competitively at regionals unless you can consistently land these jumps, which 40 years ago hadn't even been attempted at the international level.

Anyhow, I feel it is worth a listen.

I think that if the disciplines were broken apart it would be easier for the audience to understand - to keep score- and so develop an informed fanbase. If figures were properly televised, to catch the footwork and the body positioning, split screens and the like, and the tension of the judges, then close-ups of the tracings and turns, showing the wobbles and mistakes, I think people would begin to understand the complexity and difficulty figures involve. I mean, come on! people watch curling and golf

The only Figures programming shown on TV was a 5 minute wrap-up blurb with only the final few seconds of the winning figures televised.
The artistic skating is easily packaged and sold to an audience...Ice shows have been making hay with this for a hundred years, TV series, celebrities on ice etc etc. The "EXTREME Jumping" type of competition, would appeal to a lot of male viewers and with digital technology it is easy to slow a jump down, measure height/distance, speed of rotation etc, to pick the best jumper.

I really feel the sport of figure skating is losing ground commercially, and skaters are dropping out of competition earlier, due to the emphasis on jumping. The good male skater who just can't land a quad has no hope of getting anywhere competitively. Yet he may have the most elegant double axel in a generation, beautiful spread eagles, and a graceful line throughout.
And where is ice dancing going? seems like it is all about sex or something $:-\$ why can't they choreograph something a little less erotic? It seems bit cheap, technical difficulty aside.

techskater · April 02, 2013, 08:09:41 PM

Have you not watched Davis and White or the lower level German team ice dance? Neither team is about erotica or sex. The SD of D/W this season was exquisite in it's interpretation of Giselle as was Die Fleidermaus's interpretation of a couple at a ball just wanting to have fun dancing last season. The Zombie dance this year was fun and played to the German team's strengths.

Doubletoe · April 03, 2013, 06:56:17 PM

I agree with Techskater. Also, I guarantee you will see nothing erotic from Shibutani & Shibutani. . .

jjane45 · April 03, 2013, 09:13:15 PM

Quote from: Doubletoe on April 03, 2013, 06:56:17 PM
I agree with Techskater. Also, I guarantee you will see nothing erotic from Shibutani & Shibutani. . .

Sadly that's partly why the naysayers write them off...

icedancer · April 03, 2013, 10:22:12 PM

Well, it has always been hard for those brother-sister teams through the years - they can be great skaters and work well together but it always seems to be hard for them to show that connection - that is what I think that some people see as "erotic" (hardly) - it is that man-woman thing that we like to see in high-level ice dance - that there is some connection between the skaters. I think Virtue and Moir do it best (of the current group) but Davis and White's Free Program is

.

sampaguita · April 04, 2013, 02:46:24 AM

Quote from: icedancer2 on April 03, 2013, 10:22:12 PM
Well, it has always been hard for those brother-sister teams through the years - they can be great skaters and work well together but it always seems to be hard for them to show that connection - that is what I think that some people see as "erotic" (hardly) - it is that man-woman thing that we like to see in high-level ice dance - that there is some connection between the skaters. I think Virtue and Moir do it best (of the current group) but Davis and White's Free Program is .

Yup, love the chemistry between Virtue and Moir. Of course it helps that they were romantically involved before (or maybe that romantic involvement is an effect and not a cause of that chemistry?). There's this romance that you can see in every dance that they do.

DrillingSkills · April 04, 2013, 09:18:40 AM

Quote from: sampaguita on April 04, 2013, 02:46:24 AM
Yup, love the chemistry between Virtue and Moir. Of course it helps that they were romantically involved before (or maybe that romantic involvement is an effect and not a cause of that chemistry?). There's this romance that you can see in every dance that they do.

They were hardly romantically involved, unless you count elementary school "dating". Although there's no doubt their chemistry is great and unique, I don't think it has anything to do with off-ice romance.

icedancer · April 04, 2013, 12:19:24 PM

Quote from: DrillingSkills on April 04, 2013, 09:18:40 AM
They were hardly romantically involved, unless you count elementary school "dating". Although there's no doubt their chemistry is great and unique, I don't think it has anything to do with off-ice romance.

Well, I don't know about any off-ice romance either but I can say that every move is totally choreographed (this I am sure of) -

SynchKat · April 04, 2013, 02:43:52 PM

Ice dancers are good actors. That is why they come up with a story line for their programs. As a former dancer who skated with a sibling I know it is all about playing a role. I have known teams that hate each other off the ice, can't even change in the same changeroom as each other but on ice you would assume that they are romantically linked. It's just acting.

icedancer · April 04, 2013, 03:11:02 PM

Quote from: SynchKat on April 04, 2013, 02:43:52 PM
Ice dancers are good actors. That is why they come up with a story line for their programs. As a former dancer who skated with a sibling I know it is all about playing a role. I have known teams that hate each other off the ice, can't even change in the same changeroom as each other but on ice you would assume that they are romantically linked. It's just acting.

OMG I forgot that you had skated with a sibling! Forgive any offence in my comment about siblings. I was thinking about the Duchenays, the Seibolds, the Carruthers, the Kaufmanns - many great brother/sister teams through the years.

SynchKat · April 04, 2013, 04:29:49 PM

No offence taken at all. My mom once had someone comment to her how he liked our programs because we always managed to stay away from creating an "uncomfortable" feeling with our programs.

I just wanted to make the point that it's all about acting. I know lots of people assume teams are romantically linked but it's no different than a leading actress and her leading man in my mind.

Since this thread is about skating of today I do think that especially in ice dance there is more of a tendency to tell a story. I think back in the day it was a bit more about just skating and showing your skating skills rather than telling a story of some sort.

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Figure skating of today...thoughts?