Why are inside three turns so much harder (at first) than outside ones?

[platyhiker]

In learning three turns, I've found inside ones much harder to master than outside ones.  More than once, I have managed to "lose" my inside ones in that I feel terrified to even attempt them away from the barrier.  With work, I can get them back - practice them at the barrier with hands on the barrier, then with one hand, then no hands, etc.  But I don't have these issues with outside three turns.

Being the analytical geeky type, I find myself thinking about outside vs. inside three turns, and wondering why they feel so different to me.  In one sense, it's such a small change - one edge to the other is about 1/4 inch across the width of a skate blade - hold a good edge, rock up higher on the blade, change the body position and switch to the other edge going backwards.  One difference that I can spot right away is that the body lean and corresponding body positions have to be quite different - even a modest lean leads to the upper body being quite a different position relative to the blade for an inside edge vs. an outside edge.  While typing this, it just occurred to me that with outside edges, the free leg is on the opposite side of the blade as the upper body, so the free leg can be used to adjust your balance, if you feel that you are leaning too much or too little.   In contrast, with inside edges the free leg is on same side of the blade as the upper body, so that you have to use other parts of your body to adjust your lean/balance.  But, I still feel like I don't truly understand *why* they feel so different.

I'd love to hear hear other people's thoughts or musings on why inside three turns initially feel so much more awkward  than outside three turns!

[sarahspins]

In contrast, with inside edges the free leg is on same side of the blade as the upper body, so that you have to use other parts of your body to adjust your lean/balance.  But, I still feel like I don't truly understand *why* they feel so different.

I'd love to hear hear other people's thoughts or musings on why inside three turns initially feel so much more awkward  than outside three turns!

When you are first learning these your free foot should be held behind the skating foot, toe to heel... it will almost feel as if you're crossing it behind your skating foot even though you really aren't.  If it's held to the inside it makes the turn MUCH harder to complete.

[fsk8r]

I think it might have something more to do with the relative ease of the backward edge. Most people find it a lot easier to flop onto an inside edge than get their weight over onto an outside edge. Therefore the change of bodyweight to find the back outside is slightly harder than flopping down onto the inside edge, which therefore makes the inside threes harder.

[amy1984]

I had this problem as well.  Outside were easier.  I think it's because you use the outside turns more often and more naturally throughout your skating.  You just do the outside ones more often - or atleast I do! 

I found that controlling my upper body was key.  My coach told me to take a deep breath and activate my core.  I also second saraspins on foot position.  keeping your feet close together is important at the beginning stages as letting your feet - and by default your hips - come apart will change your center of balance.  I can see how that would be more detrimental on an inside edge than outside - less room for correction as the free is on the inside as you were saying.  Good luck!  You'll get them consistent eventually!

Skate Canada has a great three turn exercise in their pre skills.http://camroseskatingclub.com/downloads/prel_skills_diag.pdf

[sampaguita]

platyhiker, I agree with you. The position of the free leg for the outside 3-turn is optimal -- being outside the circle, it is easier to maneuver. On the other hand, for the inside 3-turn, since the free leg is on the inside of the circle, it has to swing a lot more than in outside 3's.

As for the suggestion that you should learn these turns with your free leg close to your heel -- even if the foot is held close to the heel, that doesn't change the relative position of the free leg. When I was first learning inside 3's, my free foot ALWAYS ended up in front of me, rather than at the back. Eventually, I learned that the turn has to happen at the exact moment that your free foot is behind your skating foot. That has since made the inside 3's easier, although I am still working on them.

[Janie]

I think for me, it's what's scarier.
Between going forwards and backwards - backwards is scarier. Besides obvious reasons like you can't see where you're going, also because my body feels like leaning backwards to push back. I know that's wrong!! I'm just saying that's what the body feels like doing.
Between an outside edge and inside edge - outside edge is scarier. On an inside edge, if I lean too far inside, the other leg is right there waiting to be put down. However, lean over to much on an outside edge and you're gone.

So combined - pushing to back outside edge is worst, and that's what a FI3 does.
At least that the reason why I found it hard when I learned them :p

[sarahspins]

Eventually, I learned that the turn has to happen at the exact moment that your free foot is behind your skating foot. That has since made the inside 3's easier, although I am still working on them.

In that case I'd suspect there is something else going on.  You should be able to hold that edge before the turn as long as you want to before turning.. if you can't, that kind of points to a problem.  The upper body is what actually "creates" the turn, not what the feet are doing.

[ONskater74]

When I was learning I thought forward outside was easier too. However, I'm rethinking that. I think it is psychological somehow, we"know" an inside edge...so going from the "unknown" outside to the "known" inside seems safer than going from the "known" to the "unknown"...? I really think they are about equal in terms of difficulty in execution. To me the turn is the easy part, it is the necessary degree of checking necessary after to hold that exiting edge that is the toughie... practice practice   I like to just goof around with big waltzy inside 3 turns with the free leg swinging way out and carrying through on the back edge to close a tight circle, and I love crisp smart lightning 3 turns on a precise figure eight. Back 3's were the hardest for me.

[Doubletoe]

When doing inside 3-turn entrance edges, you really need to keep your weight over the skating hip, something that happens automatically when you're on an outside edge.  Tuck your skating hip under you (don't let it stick out) and imagine being aligned over an axis that goes from the outside of your skating ankle to the skating side hip to the skating side ear.  Keep the free hip lifted and the skating side shoulder pressed a little to the outside of the circle so you don't fall into the inside of your circle (on the free side).  Also, you need to push out to the right (not straight) for a right forward inside 3-turn entry and push out to the left for a left forward 3-turn entry, i.e., push out toward 2:00 for RFI and 10:00 for LFI.  This gets your weight over the skating side hip and helps to keep you from falling into the circle.

[platyhiker]

Also, you need to push out to the right (not straight) for a right forward inside 3-turn entry and push out to the left for a left forward 3-turn entry, i.e., push out toward 2:00 for RFI and 10:00 for LFI.

I don't understand what you're saying here.  Are you saying that one should aim the skate blade at 2:00 for the start of the edge into a RFI 3-turn? or are you trying to say that some part of the body should be pushed towards 2:00?  Or something else?  Thanks in advance for any clarification!

[SynchKat]

I know lots of people who have issues with outside 3-turns and get stuck on the European Waltz.    As for inside 3-turns I think they are harder because you really need to have a stronger check.  You can futz your way through an ugly outside with minimal check but those inside ones will kill you with no check.

And for the free leg position for beginners it should always be behind the skating foot.  Think of having your free foot glued to the skating foot.  As you get more advanced you can let up on that a bit (when I do threes sometimes I will be sloppy and let my free foot dangle although I try to convince myself it is artistic).  But for learning properly the free foot on all turns should be close to the skating foot.  And as Sarahspins said you should be able to ride that edge before the turn with the free foot held in tight forever.  I like to teach people to try to glide for a full circle in the position you will do the turn.  Skating is all about taking your time.  Take your time learning things and executing things. 

[amy1984]

I don't understand what you're saying here.  Are you saying that one should aim the skate blade at 2:00 for the start of the edge into a RFI 3-turn? or are you trying to say that some part of the body should be pushed towards 2:00?  Or something else?  Thanks in advance for any clarification!

I'm not the original poster, but I think the point was to make sure you're on a curve, making a circle, instead of pushing off straight ahead.  So yes, this is where your blade should be aiming (2 or 10).  The arm on the side of the foot you're on should be in front you, while the arm on your free side should be behind.

[Doubletoe]

I don't understand what you're saying here.  Are you saying that one should aim the skate blade at 2:00 for the start of the edge into a RFI 3-turn? or are you trying to say that some part of the body should be pushed towards 2:00?  Or something else?  Thanks in advance for any clarification!

Push off from the line with the blade aiming at 2:00 for RFI and with the blade aiming at 10:00 for LFI.  Keep your torso squared to the line or counter-rotate the shoulders to stay over the skating hip.

[LindsayH]

I had the same experience, inside 3s were much harder for me. I agree with the others that it has a lot to do with the free leg being on the outside and having to travel farther when swinging your weight around. As with everything, it helps when I remember to bend my knee!

[platyhiker]

I started this thread simply to share thoughts on the why the inside three turns feel more difficult than the outside ones, but I have really appreciated getting all the advice.  Much of it has been quite helpful, and my inside three turns have improved a good bit this week.

The most helpful piece of advice (first by Sarah, repeated by others) was to focus on having the toe of the free foot close to and right behind the skating foot.  That really helps in getting out the first inside three turns of the session.  Also very helpful were Doubletoe's advice to keep the weight over the skating hip and to push towards 2:00 (for a RFI3).  Amy was spot-on that controlling the upper body and using the core (torso) muscles is key.  (My coach is forever reminding me to do the latter!)

Amy's link to the Skate Canada three turn exercise was a really big help to me.  After I got my inside three turns warmed up to the point I could do them (slowly) from a stand still, working on doing them as part of an exercise got me to do them with a bit more speed and in a bit more of a relaxed manner.  (I'm *very* tensed up during the first ones of a session.  I know I shouldn't be, but I still am.)  I didn't quite remember the pattern the first few times I tried it and initially came up with a variant with extra back edges (via a step after the second half of the three turn)  that alternated more frequently between the two feet.  Both it and the original pattern were helpful to me.  I also found working on alternating three turns down the line helpful.

Thinking about fsk8r's comment that "most people find it a lot easier to flop onto an inside edge" made me realize that I sometimes do a sloppy inside edge via ankle rotation rather than a weight shift and my brain then recognizes that a three turn in this position is NOT going to work and sends out the panic alert!  I definitely will continue to pay attention to how I am setting up my edge and positioning my body weight.

In addition to the advice that I got in this thread, another thing that has helping me is starting with my arms counter rotated (so for a RFI3 the left hand starts in front and the right hand out the side) gliding on the inside edge (with proper free foot position) and then rotating my arms slowly in the direction of the turn and then finally turning.  Makes for a very long turn entry, but it's in control and balanced.

[cont]

[platyhiker]

I definitely have some psychological issues with inside three turns at this point; I can get them up to what feels pretty decent to me in a session, and then the very next day, I'm back to feeling awkward and slightly terrified of them and taking another 20-40 minutes to get them back to a decent state.  I do think I am at least slowly improving in this regard.  It's also interesting to me that I have different issues on different feet - when I'm starting out, I need the counter rotated hands for the RFI3 (and have a very long entry edge), but for the LFI3 I initially do it with a super short entry edge and work on gradually lengthening it.

Thank you all for your comments, thoughts and advice.  I really appreciate it.

[fsk8r]

Hopefully you'll notice the time to getting to what you feel is a "decent state" starting to reduce.

[Doubletoe]

So happy to hear you were able to apply everyone's tips and see progress! Isn't it a great feeling when you start to figure out the physics of something and it stops being so hard?!