blade comparison - Matrix & Paramount

[treesprite]

Looking at Matrix and Paramount blades, it seems like they are pretty much the same thing (the aluminum base and steel runner), but Matrix looks to be less expensive for comparable level blades.  Does anyone have comparison information for them?

[sarahspins]

There isn't as much published information about the profiles on the Matrix (or any ultima) blades.. paramount has always been very open with their various blade profiles... ultima is a little bit of a mystery and while I've heard certain things, none of it can be verified by any public source.  Matrix blades also use a slightly different kind of stainless steel than the paramounts do, and it falls somewhere inbetween 420C and 440C.

I also like that I can get a licensed copy of the MK profile I prefer (Phantom) rather than just a "clone" - the picks may look similar on some of them (Freestyle is the "clone" for Phantoms) but I have no idea about the rest of the blade with Ultima... with Paramount I know it's the same profile I've been skating on for the past 18 years.

There's also the issue of colors   My current blades are very very vibrant turquoise (my old blades were very very green) and you can order any color (or combination of colors!) you'd like from Paramount for a small fee... ultima only comes in their stock colors.  Not a big deal for most, but if you like color.... paramount is the only way to go, plus they are made in the USA



The price difference is about $100 between paramount and ultima, but if you compare the paramounts to MK or Wilson blades, some are less, some are even slightly more.. there's only a $25 difference between the phantom specials I used to skate on and my current paramounts.. but if you take away the fee for the custom color my paramounts were cheaper (at $450 when I got them over the summer, I think they're a little more now, but it's constantly changing as the price of materials changes).

[treesprite]

Blades seem to be getting more expensive compared to how fast boot prices are going up. I am thinking about getting new boots, but my Coronation Ace blades are practically new and budget wise I should keep using them (and I have a brand new pair of Graf Lausanne blades not yet being used, but they have a solid plate, meaning they are a bit heavy). But the idea of lighter blades is enticing.... but not when the blades cost almost as much as the boots.

[sarahspins]

Understandable.. it gets crazy expensive when you have to buy both.

I had to buy new blades when I purchased my first paramounts a year ago.. my blades were at the end of their sharpening zone.   Then I bought new ones again over the summer after I bought new boots (two months later, had to save money first), not wanting to switch my blades from my old boots to the new.. but then I only skated in my old ones once after, so basically I have my "old" pair of blades (that have only been sharpened a few times) ready and waiting for the next pair of boots I get, whenever that is (hopefully not soon!).

Truthfully, if i wasn't already skating on higher blades and used to the larger picks and different spin rocker profile I would rather buy $200 blades, but I didn't think it was worth trying to "step down" only to find I wasn't happy and I had to buy more expensive ones anyways

[Skittl1321]

I wore the cheap Paramounts (not the harder steel) and Matrix Legacy (has harder steel). No difference in skateability of the blades. The matrix hold a sharpening forever, 3x the paramounts (comparison does not apply to more expensive blades). They also make a gorgeous rip noise when you hit a decent edge. Won't go back to Paramount, no benefit at the low level for the price.

[Willowway]

Just to toss into a blade comparison discussion in general:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f9SnKS8xvQ

I found this video particularly interesting as after several sharpening on my Jackson blades I am having toes pick issues that I haven't had ever, not from lesson 1.  I suggested to my coach that maybe (not trying to make excuses) it was the blade and the heel lift. Hard to say. But then, I saw this video and well...

My question if anyone can answer it - I need a good all purpose 8' blade that is not Jackson. I'd try Coronation Aces but I'm very wary of changing to a 7' rocker. Any suggestions?

[Skittl1321]

Interesting video.

Jackson's may not be for everyone, and clearly aren't for you- but I'd say 90% of our rink skates on them, and they seem to be skating fine.  We aren't skaters placing at regionals, but most of the kids are doing doubles.  I like my Ultimas as well as my Paramounts.  They hold a sharpening so much longer that even if I get fewer sharpenings out of them, they will last the same amount of time.

[hopskipjump]

I'm not sure there is really an issue.  They are just different.  I trust our Olympian coach who has national skaters and they recommend Jackson blades.  I also trust our skate sharpener.  And my skater.  She had a hard time changing to 8inch rockers, but now that she has there have been huge leaps - specifically with spins and edges.

[sarahspins]

There are LOTS of top level skaters in jackson blades now so I wouldn't necessarily think they are inferior in any way... just different, but different in the way that Wilson blades are different than MK even though they're made by the same company.

[Query]

I also like that I can get a licensed copy of the MK profile

Where? I called the company that sells MK and Wilson blades a year or two ago, and they said profiles are not available. Ultima said the same thing.

MK sold profiles 25 or 30 years ago. A local high end sharpener says that only a few sharpeners in the whole world own them, including him. But they only sold one profile then - which applied to all MK blades at that time. It did not include the shape of the toe pick, and the distance from the sweet spot to the toe pick did not vary with the length of the blade, nor did it show the slight round-off of the tail that most current MK blade samples appear to have when new.

---

Paramount runners are glued to the chassis. Ultima Matrix blades are held together by glue and by 3 screws. The aforementioned high end sharpener says the "missing" screws make Paramounts about 2 or 3 grams lighter (a very small amount), but he claims they are substantially weaker. He showed me some Paramount blades that a skater had broken. But he hates Paramount for other reasons - I don't think many skaters break their blades.

MK and Wilson blade shapes (e.g., rocker, thickness) vary substantially from blade to blade - even within a left/right pair. Last I checked (a few years ago), Ultima blades were much more consistent. Paramount says theirs are too, and has an web page based on that.

Regardless, your sharpener will likely gradually or deliberately change the shape of the blade no matter what you do.

[treesprite]

I think if I do get new blades I'll get the Matrix Legacy.  But I'm still not  sure that the difference in weight is worth new blades when I already have new blades. I wish I could just test some out.

Anyone know where the cheapest place is to buy them on the internet? For that matter, does anyone  know a place on the internet that takes orders for split width Jackson Elite Plus boots and is less expensive than a local shop would be?

[Skittl1321]

I wouldn't bother getting them until you need new blades.  I love the Matrix, and they are lighter- but I think it makes a very small difference.

[sarahspins]

Anyone know where the cheapest place is to buy them on the internet? For that matter, does anyone  know a place on the internet that takes orders for split width Jackson Elite Plus boots and is less expensive than a local shop would be?

Kinzie's Closet   However, the fee for a split width is now $75 from Jackson (or at least it was last May) instead of the $50 they'd previously charged.  I'd only go the online route If you are 100% certain of your size, but KC is very easy to work with, I ordered my boots through them and was absolutely happy with the service

[treesprite]

I was thinking Kinzie's. Then i compared with other places - some are cheaper for boots and some are cheaper for blades. Then I found a place that is cheaper for both the boots AND the blades. I sent an e-mail about split width to the place, and the response was that there would be an extra fee and to tell them what I want so they can give me a quote.

[Query]

BTW, It's your judgment whether to risk ordering mail order, on boots and blades. It's all a matter of priorities.

E.g., boots often come with major fit problems. Blades often come bent, or mounted differently than you need. It's easier to deal with a good honest store in person than mail order. It's even easier to deal with the boot maker himself if you go to the factory store for the initial fit and for the initial adjustment.

[hopskipjump]

Normally I'd agree but I saved about $100+ on blades by ordering from Kinzies.  They were really helpful, got me the size blade I needed for the skate make/model and my proshop confirmed it.  He checked the blade before mounting it.  He wished he could have matched the price (me too) but Kinzie's has the best deal and he just couldn't go that low.

I'd rather buy local but when you are talking about over a hundred dollars - sigh. 

The price on skates was about the same.  So I bought those local and paid for mounting/waterproofing and first sharpening.

[sarahspins]

Same here.. my blades were more than $200 less than retail through Kinzies.. I could have ordered them through our local pro shop, but there was no benefit to doing so (there isn't really much in the pro shop at my rink unless you are looking for skates suitable for LTS - so they could special order anything I asked for but at that rate I'd still be waiting on something to get shipped, only I'd pay more for the privilege).  My boots were also about $150 less than retail price locally.

When I ordered from Kinzies, my boots and blades shipped to me direct from their manufacturers.  Were there to have been a problem with either, I'd be dealing directly with those manufacturers, not the retailer.  I know enough to be able to visually inspect my boots and blades for problems... I didn't have any, but I don't think I got "lucky" I simply got what I ordered.

So yeah, it's worth the "risk" if you know exactly what you need and aren't guessing at size or features or what boot you need - in my case I had a pair of boots that fit me fine, they were just wearing out and I needed something more supportive. So I ordered the same size, just in a different model (slightly stiffer, but the difference between 85 and 90 is relatively insignificant) since the different model meant I didn't need to pay to also modify the tongue linings... they arrived super fast directly from Jackson, with no problems at all... they fit exactly like my old ones... no risk involved.

[techskater]

I've been in this sport a long time and rarely (like 1/1000 pairs) heard of blades coming bent from the manufacturer (or dist'n), so that is a risk I'd take if I were in the market for new blades if KC or another on line rep is way cheaper than everyone else.  If I wasn't in customs and ordered boots from a dist'n center like KC, I would NEVER have them come pre-mounted as you need a pair of eyes on your feet and how the blade is mounted to understand where the blade needs to be permanently as everyone's balance point is not dead center on the toe seam.  If the boot soles aren't flat, if you don't catch it when you look at them, typically your local guy/gal who does your mounting and shapening would notice that if they are worth their salt as a skate technician (one of our local guys had it out with one of the boot companies over a pair of customs with the sole cockeyed, even when the skater didn't see it when they came in).  At that point you have two options, sand them flat (if it's a small amount) or send them back...

[treesprite]

KC told me $55 for the fee. I'm still waiting for the other place, MDS, to give me a second response regarding the specific skates I want.  I'm not worried about the sizing - I'm just ordering a new pair of the boots I already have. The shop at the rink wants over $100 more for the boots than KC. I didn't bother asking the blade price - I think it's rare that blades are bad.

[Query]

my blades were more than $200 less than retail through Kinzies..

OMG. That's a lot. Were they on sale? If the difference was that large, I'd take a chance. Too bad MK Dance blades are only a few dollars cheaper there.

Do any you of use Reidell Eclipse blades? They are a fair bit cheaper than the other major brands (based on Kinzie's Closet prices). Are they as durable as the equivalent other brand blades?

I visually compared an Eclipse Dance blade to an MK Dance blade just after they came out - very similar. What I don't know to tell is how durable they are. By now some of you must know...

[sarahspins]

Kinzie's has always discounted paramounts blades (and MK and Wilson too, but the amount if discount depends on the model... Ultima and Eclipse not so much). However, when I bought mine over the summer (when I scraped together enough money after buying boots) they were priced at $450 with no discount code (I did pay extra for custom color).  They are back to listing them at retail price (or closer to it, I'm guessing) and using a discount code now... so now they are listed at $625, and you can get $125 off with a code... which is still significant savings over what most pro shops charge.

I don't know anyone with the eclipse dance blades.  It seems that the Skate Science dance blades are in fashion at my rink now.. there are quite a few skaters on them, however they are neither fully comparable or cheaper than MK dance... but they are also stainless steel.

[Query]

It seems that the Skate Science dance blades are in fashion at my rink now..

Do you like their blades?

[CaraSkates]

Do any you of use Reidell Eclipse blades? They are a fair bit cheaper than the other major brands (based on Kinzie's Closet prices). Are they as durable as the equivalent other brand blades?

I visually compared an Eclipse Dance blade to an MK Dance blade just after they came out - very similar. What I don't know to tell is how durable they are. By now some of you must know...

A handful of skaters at my rink are wearing Eclipse blades - they all just got them this year though so no info on long term durability. I think most of them are wearing the Pattern 99 model - I've only heard good things! If I hadn't purchased on sale Gold Seals just before these came out, I would get them and plan to next time I need blades.

[CaraSkates]

Oh and to add - we have a couple skaters in the Paramounts too - mixed reviews - some like them, some hate them.

[sarahspins]

Do you like their blades?

I have only really seen them in passing.. I haven't really spoken to anyone who is skating on them to see what they have to say about them.  There are a few girls using the freestyle blades too, but I would tend to assume those who are skating on them are happy with them or they would try something different... because I have seen skaters try a different blade for a few weeks then move on to something different or going back to the same blades they had before.

There are also quite a few skaters in the mid-freestyle Eclipse blades... but none that I know of on the dance blades.