closed/open hips

[VAsk8r]

What exactly do coaches mean when they talk about closed and open hips? I have always assumed I have very closed hips. I struggled to learn mohawks and am still struggling with my power 3-turns because it's hard for me to step forward into the turn out of the backward inside edge. I can't do spread eagles or Ina Bauers at all. Anything that requires a turnout/first position is challenging, although I took ballet for years as a kid and never had trouble with it there.

And yet, one day I was working on consecutive 3-turns up the blue line and backward 3-turns and a gold-level skater who also coaches remarked, "You have very open hips."

So, maybe I have no idea what closed and open hips really are. Someone please enlighten me!

[sampaguita]

This is not a confirmed test (I pretty much noticed it myself when I was watching a Titanic documentary), so I would appreciate it if you could test it!

Lie down on your back. Relax, then look at how your feet are oriented. If they are pointing straight up, you have closed hips. If they are pointing away from one another, then you have open hips.

[Sk8Dreams]

This is not a confirmed test (I pretty much noticed it myself when I was watching a Titanic documentary), so I would appreciate it if you could test it!

Lie down on your back. Relax, then look at how your feet are oriented. If they are pointing straight up, you have closed hips. If they are pointing away from one another, then you have open hips.

And if they point towards each other, you have very closed hips.

Open/closed hips are determined by the architecture of the hip bones, and cannot be changed, though some turnout can be gained through proper stretching.

If you were able to do first position easily as a child, then it's possible you do have open hips, and just need to regain your flexibility.  One way to tell your max turnout on the ice is to squat and turn your feet out (spread eagle fashion).  If they are in a straight line, you have open hips and great turnout, and just need to stretch.  Rise up slowly, maintaining the turnout with your hips.  Stop the moment it puts stress on your knees.

[jjane45]

One way to tell your max turnout on the ice is to squat and turn your feet out (spread eagle fashion). 

I like this one a lot, not hard on the knees at all.

I tried the test mentioned by sampaguita, yeah my feet point outward at approx. 45° angle and my hips are quite open.

[fsk8r]

What exactly do coaches mean when they talk about closed and open hips? I have always assumed I have very closed hips. I struggled to learn mohawks and am still struggling with my power 3-turns because it's hard for me to step forward into the turn out of the backward inside edge. I can't do spread eagles or Ina Bauers at all. Anything that requires a turnout/first position is challenging, although I took ballet for years as a kid and never had trouble with it there.

And yet, one day I was working on consecutive 3-turns up the blue line and backward 3-turns and a gold-level skater who also coaches remarked, "You have very open hips."

So, maybe I have no idea what closed and open hips really are. Someone please enlighten me!

I think possibly what you're struggling with isn't anything to do with your hips but is more to do with core strength. The step forward from a back inside edge of the power 3s is I believe the same step forward you do with consecutive 3s. Slightly different context but still stepping forward from a back inside to a forward outside. If you can do one and can't do the other it's not your hips which are the issue, but quite possibly your posture and core strength.
I think telling people they've got open and closed hips is misleading when you're talking about mohawks and 3turns.
It's  a completely different thing when you start talking about spreadeagles and in bauers.

[VAsk8r]

Lie down on your back. Relax, then look at how your feet are oriented. If they are pointing straight up, you have closed hips. If they are pointing away from one another, then you have open hips.

Tried it. My feet were pointing down (makes sense, as I also have very tight calves) and were straight, not turned out away from each other.

I had trouble with both the consecutive 3's and power 3's, and as I worked on consecutive 3's the problem also improved with powers. I think it was definitely the turnout position of the feet that bothered me, because what would happen is I'd want to step so my foot was right next to the other, then turn it on the ice to be in the right position. That's what also happens with spreads and Inas: almost instantly, one foot will turn so it's right next to the other.

Core strength is something I also work on, though.

One way to tell your max turnout on the ice is to squat and turn your feet out (spread eagle fashion).  If they are in a straight line, you have open hips and great turnout, and just need to stretch.  Rise up slowly, maintaining the turnout with your hips.  Stop the moment it puts stress on your knees.

I'm not sure if you meant to do this on ice or off, but I did it off ice. My feet were slightly turned it but almost in a straight line. I was able to rise up to the point where I only had a slight bend in my knees before I felt it in my knees. I think this would be a good stretching exercise.

[Hanca]

Mohawk is not very good indicator of closed/open hips. For Mohawk you don't really need to put feet your feet 180 degrees; all you need is around 130 degrees, but I have seen even as little as 90 degrees would do.  It is chocktaws that are more accurate indicator of open/closed hips. Or spread eagles, or Ina Bauer. If you can do any of those without really working on it hard first, you have open hips. If you can't do those without working on it, there are two options: either you have closed hips, or you have open hips but your muscles have not been stretched and they got shortened as you got older. If it is the latter, when you put a bit of work in, you will have no problems with those elements. Those who have naturally closed hips, they have to put in A LOT of work and those elements will still not be very good. It might work eventually (after really a lot of work on it) but the turn out might be more from knees, which will be very unhealthy for the knees).   

[Sk8Dreams]

Mohawk is not very good indicator of closed/open hips. For Mohawk you don't really need to put feet your feet 180 degrees; all you need is around 130 degrees, but I have seen even as little as 90 degrees would do.   

I bet you have open hips!  What you say about degrees is true, but when you only have 90 degrees, you really have to get those hips around or you come to a very sudden stop and a very hard splat.  Mohawks are much harder to master for those of us with closed hips.

[Rachelsk8s]

Both of the tests where very interesting!!  I tried both, the one lying down and the first position off the ice.  I really wasn't sure what kind of hips I had I thought they were open but never really knew for sure!!  I found that my feet pointed out to the side, when lying down, and I could stand up straight with both feet in a straight line, (if that makes sense lol).  Thanks so much for sharing these tips!!

[icedancer]

Hmm... I tried the one with the first position and came up all the way no problem.

BUT I am quite sure I could not do a spread eagle to save my life...

That being said I do know that I have one closed hip (the right) and one open hip (the left) which of course makes for some interesting stuff.

The bottom line is that it is not so cut-and-dried on all bodies.

I always think of the difference between Brian Boitano and Brian Orser - Brian Boitano had a beautiful spread eagle that he used to his great advantage but his footwork was not so tight.  I'm not sure Brian Orser did a spread eagle but when I saw them once do a side-by-side type of number it was kind of funny to see how Brian O. had really quick footwork especially compared to Boitano and IIRC Brian O. couldn't match Brian B.'s spread eagle.

Brian B = open hips

Brian O. = closed hips.

Both great skaters with different talents that had something to do with their body type.

In the end a lot can be overcome by practice, practice, practice - and having a coach that can help you to get it right, for YOU.

[jjane45]

Hmm... I tried the one with the first position and came up all the way no problem.

BUT I am quite sure I could not do a spread eagle to save my life...

Makes me wonder what else is needed for a spread eagle, you definitely seem to have open hips.

BTW interesting observations on Brian B. and Brian O.!

[fsk8r]

Hmm... I tried the one with the first position and came up all the way no problem.

I'm another one who can hold the position off-ice. There's a lot of strength needed to hold the blades correct on the ice and you also have to get the weight onto the right edges.
I know I could have a spreadeagle if I worked at it, but there's enough other things to work at, that I don't work on gaining that strength frequently enough that I actually get it.

[Hanca]

I bet you have open hips!  What you say about degrees is true, but when you only have 90 degrees, you really have to get those hips around or you come to a very sudden stop and a very hard splat. Mohawks are much harder to master for those of us with closed hips.

No, unfortunately I have very closed hips. My husband is helping me with stretching every night for the last 2-3 years and I still don't come anywhere near managing to do spread eagle. If I try tougher approach (just force it), my knees start hurting quite badly. I have had meniscus operated on both knees, so I have to be careful now.  And now I have hip problem for the last 9 months.

Chocktaws we have in field moves and at the moment I am cheating them, so it will take ages before I can take the test. I have been on this level of field moved for 2 years already and can't move on.

What I said about Mohawk is based on my own experience. When I started learning it, I thought that I would never manage to learn this because I have really closed hips. It was my coach who pointed out that it is possible to do it smoothly and in speed even with feet open only 90 degrees. I am sure that Mohawks are much harder to master for those of us with closed hips, but I disagree that opening the feet only 90 degrees on Mohawk must end with a very sudden stop and a very hard splat. That's your technique (or lack of it), not the closed hips! Let me remind you that the first edge of Mohawk is EDGE - it curves. Although it start sort of forward, by the time you are putting your other foot down to do a Mohawk it would already go nearly sideway, let's say between 10 and 11 o'clock. So when you put the other foot down, even in the 90 degrees (between 7-8 o'clock) again ON EDGE which will therefore curve, you will end up continuing in the original direction as you started (now backward because you turned).

[Doubletoe]

Even if you have open hips (hip joints located farther to the outside), your groin muscles may have become tight.  I wasn't able to do a spread eagle or Ina Bauer until I had been doing the butterfly stretch for a month or two.  I still always have to do plies against the boards before doing spread eagles or Ina Bauers.  Butterfly stretch: http://gymnastics.about.com/od/trainingadvice/ss/centersplit_2.htm

[Sk8Dreams]

I disagree that opening the feet only 90 degrees on Mohawk must end with a very sudden stop and a very hard splat.

I did not say that at all.  I said that if you only have 90 degrees, and DO NOT GET YOUR HIPS TURNED QUICKLY, then you will splat.  This is a very different thing.

[Hanca]

I am not sure what you mean by not getting hips turned quickly when doing Mohawk. I don't think I am turning my hips anywhere. When I start doing Mohawk (the easiest one, inside to inside edge), my hips are facing into the circle on the first edge and they are still facing into the circle after I step on the other foot and glide backwards.

[Doubletoe]

I don't know about all this hip-turning you guys are talking about, but as long a you lift the first foot as soon as you put the other foot down, I don't see a big chance of catching a blade and going down . . .

[Sk8Dreams]

I don't know about all this hip-turning you guys are talking about, but as long a you lift the first foot as soon as you put the other foot down, I don't see a big chance of catching a blade and going down . . .

The leg bone's connected to the hip bone...  If you don't rotate your hips, and you only have 90' turnout, then the blade taking the ice is going to be at a right angle to your direction of travel, hence full stop, even if you have lifted the first foot already.  I've seen it happen many times, and come pretty close myself.  It's real.

[icedancer]

I don't know about all this hip-turning you guys are talking about, but as long a you lift the first foot as soon as you put the other foot down, I don't see a big chance of catching a blade and going down . . .

Clearly you are not an ice-dancer who has taken down your partner by stepping on your blade during an ill-timed 14-step mohawk!!! :laugh3

[jjane45]

Clearly you are not an ice-dancer who has taken down your partner by stepping on your blade during an ill-timed 14-step mohawk!!! :laugh3

Oh boy... At least you stepped on your own blade.

I have open hips but constantly worry about catching the blade, I guess it's that dance coaches want those neat feet!

[Hanca]

The leg bone's connected to the hip bone...  If you don't rotate your hips, and you only have 90' turnout, then the blade taking the ice is going to be at a right angle to your direction of travel, hence full stop, even if you have lifted the first foot already.  I've seen it happen many times, and come pretty close myself.  It's real.

That's not true. As I already explained above, you don't need to rotate your hips. Keep them facing towards inside of the circle and keep them still (not rotating them in any way).  Your blades is going to be at right angle at your original direction, but because you are supposed to get there on edge, it will be for a very short time and you just swap the legs. You shouldn't try to have them both down. You lift one and put the other one down at the same time. I can't describe it, I am not a coach and the best explanation what I can do is above (when I wrote which leg is facing what time on an imaginary watch)

[Doubletoe]

The leg bone's connected to the hip bone...  If you don't rotate your hips, and you only have 90' turnout, then the blade taking the ice is going to be at a right angle to your direction of travel, hence full stop, even if you have lifted the first foot already.  I've seen it happen many times, and come pretty close myself.  It's real.

But we don't skate on flats, we skate on edges. . . and edges curve.  Incidentally, the deeper your knee bend, the more your edge will curve (yet another good reason to bend your knees & ankles).  But I think I'm beginning to understand what you might be talking about.  Picturing a RFI mohawk, once you step down on the LBI edge and lift the right foot, you don't want to keep that right foot turned out and extended because that will keep your free hip turned out.  I'm not an ice dancer, but heel-to-instep on the entry and heel-to-instep on the exit seems to prevent that problem.  This makes a good case for "neat feet."

[Sk8Dreams]

But we don't skate on flats, we skate on edges. . . and edges curve.  Incidentally, the deeper your knee bend, the more your edge will curve (yet another good reason to bend your knees & ankles).  But I think I'm beginning to understand what you might be talking about.  Picturing a RFI mohawk, once you step down on the LBI edge and lift the right foot, you don't want to keep that right foot turned out and extended because that will keep your free hip turned out.  I'm not an ice dancer, but heel-to-instep on the entry and heel-to-instep on the exit seems to prevent that problem.  This makes a good case for "neat feet."

Actually, I don't think you do get what I'm talking about.  I wish I had a video to show you, but I don't often video my students learning mohawks.  If your new foot is at a right angle to your old foot (heel-to-instep) and thus to the direction of travel, that blade is not going to be on an edge, and even if it were, you would not be progressing forwards. 

[nataxa]

What exactly do coaches mean when they talk about closed and open hips? I have always assumed I have very closed hips. I struggled to learn mohawks and am still struggling with my power 3-turns because it's hard for me to step forward into the turn out of the backward inside edge. I can't do spread eagles or Ina Bauers at all. Anything that requires a turnout/first position is challenging, although I took ballet for years as a kid and never had trouble with it there.

And yet, one day I was working on consecutive 3-turns up the blue line and backward 3-turns and a gold-level skater who also coaches remarked, "You have very open hips."

So, maybe I have no idea what closed and open hips really are. Someone please enlighten me!

You do not need to be able to do spread eagles or Ina Bauers to step forward into the turn out of the backward inside edge. Try to open your shoulder more and bend your knees more. From this position it's mush easier to step forward. Opened shoulder is very important. Also do not rush. Wait a little bit more before stepping forward, when your body is in the good position with a shoulder opened.