Question for Judges and Coaches: Backspin

[Skittl1321]

I am re-testing my bronze freeskate soon.  The only comment I got on the last test that was a negative was that my loop needs work.  I've been working on my loop, but -eh-.

We've tried to redo the test to showcase more flow, and to bolster other elements in hopes that they will give me a pass over the bad loop.

My backspin is pretty strong for the area.  The three bronze adults I've seen in local competitions do not cross their foot on their backspin, and are usually on the wrong edge.  I am always on the outside edge, and centered 95% of the time.

My problem is- I can't cross my foot very well.  

However, working on my loop, I've gotten better at crossing.  However, it makes my backspin slower, and I can't get as many revolutions before I get off balance.

Does it show more mastery of the spin to have a strong spin without a crossed foot, or a weaker spin with one?

[sarahspins]

Nowhere is it described in the bronze requirements that it has to be foot crossed.  It is specified in FS 3 to have a crossed free leg (FS 2 has a "beginning backspin" with no crossed leg requirement), so I would think if they absolutely required it for Bronze that they'd be that specific there too.

I had a similar unusual spin question the other day - is a back sit allowed instead of a forward sit, and the judge I asked wasn't sure but she did say that she didn't see any reason why it wouldn't be allowed since the requirement doesn't specifically say "forward sit spin"... so without some very specific requirements in the description I think there is some room for doing what you want... as long as it fits the test criteria.

[Skittl1321]

Well, I know it isn't required to be crossed. (I didn't cross it for my first attempt, because I couldn't.  I also did it from a full stop, and now I do it out of movement. Yay- I'm getting better.)

The question is- which is considered to be a better spin?

[FigureSpins]

The question is- which is considered to be a better spin?

The back scratch spin, with speed and power on entrance with a clean one-footed pull-out on the exit.

[Skittl1321]

with a clean one-footed pull-out on the exit.

I can only do a one foot pull out on the exit if I cross, so that is the slower spin with fewer revolutions (the entry is the same for both).
I did not do a one foot exit on my previous test and did get a positive comment about my backspin from one judge.

[FigureSpins]

Use what you have that works as of a month before the test date.

[Skittl1321]

Use what you have that works as of a month before the test date.

The test is less than a month away.  I can do both of these.  I can either do no crossed foot, more revolutions more speed, two foot exit, or I can do crossed foot, less speed in spin, fewer revolutions, one foot exit.

I am wondering what judges prefer, and what coaches tell their students. (I can't be the only person who has ever had to choose between these too options.)  While I know it is not required, does a crossed foot show enough mastery that it is worth sacrificing speed and revolutions.

My primary coach is on vacation until after the test. My secondary coach has never had a student test at this level, she says do the one I feel most comfortable with.  The other adult bronze skaters in the area don't seem to have crossed feet, so I know you can pass without it, but I need all my elements as strong as possible in the judges eyes, since I do have a weak element.

The problem is, all of our judges are traveling ones, no "club" judges, so it isn't possible to find out what it is they prefer, because you don't know who they will be.

[FigureSpins]

Back scratch then

[icedancer]

I know you are asking about the backspin.  I would probably accept either backspin if it was a quality backspin with the required number of revolutions.

But in trying to make one element really really good in hopes of bringing up the technical score for your test may be a mistake.  The elements are not judged individually like in the MITF or even in some of the Basic Skills type competitions where a score is given for each element.  If that were the case you could have a very weak (ie., really cheated) jump element that didn't get a passing score but if you had one really good element that mark might bring up the mark on the non-passing element.

It doesn't work that way in the FS tests unfortunately.  If an element is done poorly or if you fall on the element (and subsequently make the same mistake on the reskate) then the technical portion of the test can't pass.

What CAN happen is that if your artistic mark is high enough, that can bring up the overall score to a passing score overall.  Some judges will do this if they feel that the test should pass even with a weak element.  So I would work on your overall skating, speed and flow - confidence on the ice - that may get you a long way with the judges.

But if you are specifically asking about the back spin ideally I would like to see a good strong back scratch spin with the foot crossed if you can do it.  Having a nice setup and a good flow out of the spin will help in the artistic score.  Also flowing out of jump landings, hitting a good strong exit position. 

Smile.

[Skittl1321]

icedancer2 - I know that a under-rotated jump is a "serious error" and all that, but I have seen SO many people pass this test with underrotated loops.  And they aren't necessarily really strong skaters with amazing basic skills and presentation.  It is really frustrating that the standard is all over the place.

I just want to get all the other elements as strong as possible to make the overall presentation of the program look better.  Anyone who follows skating can see that strong elements = higher PCS regardless of actual skills.  So while I'm working on the "in betweens" in an artistic mark sense, the elements effect that too.

None of my other elements have a dilemma in which is the better way to do it.   This is the only one where I can do it two different ways, and I don't know which way judges will prefer.  (It's like the question of "is it better to have a backspin with only 3 revolutions on an outside edge or a super fast, 8 revolution backspin on an accidental inside edge."?  I prefer outside edge, as that is correct, unless the inside edge is an intentional switch. I know judges who have said they would rather see kids spinning.)


Smile I have taken care of.  All 3 judges commented on my 'nice smile'.  It doesn't appear to have helped at all though

[jjane45]

My problem is- I can't cross my foot very well.  

Feeling your pain here. Pulling-in instantly kills my backspin's speed, 99% of the time.
Good luck with the test, what do local coaches think? (even though judges change all the time, coaches should have a general idea before they put their students out there?)

[Skittl1321]

what do local coaches think?

The only coach at our rink who has had an adult bronze skater said she passed with 3 slow revolutions, no crossed foot.

My primary coach had me go uncrossed last test.  My current coach (primary is on vacation) would like for me to cross it if I am comfortable with that.  I feel like speed shows off more skating, but I don't know which to sacrifice.  "Perfect" isn't an option- something has to give

The coaches don't always know what the judges will want though, because the judges change all the time.  There is no "local standard".  The coach who had a skater pass this already said I would have without a doubt passed on that session, of course, I was injured.  Her other jumps are higher than mine, but her loop is just as underrotated and my spins are stronger.

[irenar5]

I am not a coach, but between the two options I would pick the faster, more centered spin without the crossing.

[jjane45]

I am not a coach, but between the two options I would pick the faster, more centered spin without the crossing.

Ditto.

The coaches don't always know what the judges will want though, because the judges change all the time.  There is no "local standard". 

What do coaches do with the kids?

[icefrog]

I believe that Bronze is the rough equivelent to preliminary and the kids need a scratch-back scratch and the leg is crossed.

[Skittl1321]

I believe that Bronze is the rough equivelent to preliminary and the kids need a scratch-back scratch and the leg is crossed.

A leg is crossed by definition on a scratch spin.

The kids test calls for scratch spins. The adult test calls for a backspin, so the foot doesn't need to be crossed. The tests aren't really the same (kids is much harder, really)

The question is still, what makes a better spin - a strong position or more speed/revolutions.

I've polled the coaches at my rink, and most think more revolutions is better.

[icesk8r725]

I would think that more/fast revolutions would fare better than a crossed leg scratchspin that was not as fast.  Both ways show control, but faster/centered/etc would show more control.  That said, you never know what the judges will think!

[Doubletoe]

I'd go for more revolutions, even if it means your free leg isn't crossed.  If you do 3-4 revs in crossed leg position normally, you might only get 2.5 when you're nervous.