canskate

[falen]

Hi,
What is preliminary freeskate test elements and program passed in Canada equivalent to us tests passed? 

[hopskipjump]

Use this competition form: http://www.sk8stuffmore.com/comps/11/11mci_bs.pdf  USFS basic 5 is like CanSkate 6. Humm...a couple varianeces on the PDF of different comps but still very similar.

[falen]

that's about as clear as mud

[isakswings]

sk8mum will be a great resource here! I believe she is in Canada. Here is what I found... scroll and you will see the levels and elements allowed.

http://www.skating-wos.on.ca/competitions/freeskcrit.pdf

[Sk8tmum]

Preliminary is our first level of testing.  But,in terms of the "equivalencies " I really don't know. Are you referring to "if they pass a Canadian preliminary test they must compete at" sort of thing?

[MimiG]

I have usually seen it as being equivalent to preliminary in the US, but every US competition I did (while still living & skating in Canada) listed it's equivalencies in the competition form. Also, Canadian freestyle tests have two parts (elements & program), so you can pass half the test and retry the other part later, which can lead to confusion when competing in the US (this came up a few times with kids from my club)

Most competitions I did (in northern NY & VT) had levels matched as follows (although occasionally they'd put either Junior Bronze or Senior Bronze with Juvenile, or double up a level, so a Jr. Bronze skater could choose to compete either Pre-Juv or Juv...):

USFSA	Skate Canada
Pre-preliminary	No complete test
Preliminary	Preliminary
Pre-juvenile	Jr. Bronze
Juvenile	no equivalent
Intermediate	Sr. Bronze
Novice	Jr. Silver
Junior	Sr. Silver
Senior	Gold

[retired]

If like many others who passed preliminary FS in Canada, and would be competing preliminary Starskate in the upcoming season, they would probably fit best in US pre-preliminary well balanced.   If they had passed Canadian preliminary but really had an axel and a double in their pocket for the sake of competing provincials or pre-juvenile, then give US preliminary a try but it really feels like junior bronze starskate or juvenile comp.    Put it this way, if they could pass junior bronze elements easily, they would do okay in pre-preliminary.  If they could pass senior bronze elements, then US preliminary.  

Otherwise if the test was to the minimum standards, look at well balanced tracks.  

We have had kids compete in the US and in the first year we did it thought that Preliminary = Preliminary and got clobbered.  We haven't been back for a while and possibly well balanced has taken out some of the inequalities.

[fsk8r]

Do skaters in Canada tend to test up when they have the skills to pass the test, or is there a tendency as seems to happen in the US that you need skills from several test levels up to be competitive at each level?

[Sk8tmum]

It depends on coaching philosophy.  Some coaches in Canada sandbag, some move up as soon as they are ready, some move them up before they are ready. 

A few years ago, they put well-balanced program rules in place in Canada, which eliminated much of the "I can land a double lutz at Junior Bronze (a low level) - and WIN EVERYTHING!" mentality.  This caused less of the failure to test up/sandbagging issue.  And, moves tests are wholly seperate from freeskate tests.  You don't need to pass our version of "moves" which are called "skills" to move up to test a level.

The other thing in Canada which differs is that our tests are split into program and elements.  You have to pass both parts, which are seperate tests, to get a "level".  However, you can run up one side without ever testing the other, thus, you could theoretically have Gold Freeskate Elements and be "no-test" on the program side and still compete pre-preliminary!  Not that you would want to ...

[Sk8tmum]

Oh yeah, a small point: CanSkate is the branded name of Skate Canada's learn to Skate program.  In case anyone other than myself was confused by the title!

[fsk8r]

It depends on coaching philosophy.  Some coaches in Canada sandbag, some move up as soon as they are ready, some move them up before they are ready. 

A few years ago, they put well-balanced program rules in place in Canada, which eliminated much of the "I can land a double lutz at Junior Bronze (a low level) - and WIN EVERYTHING!" mentality.  This caused less of the failure to test up/sandbagging issue.  And, moves tests are wholly seperate from freeskate tests.  You don't need to pass our version of "moves" which are called "skills" to move up to test a level.

The other thing in Canada which differs is that our tests are split into program and elements.  You have to pass both parts, which are seperate tests, to get a "level".  However, you can run up one side without ever testing the other, thus, you could theoretically have Gold Freeskate Elements and be "no-test" on the program side and still compete pre-preliminary!  Not that you would want to ...

Sounds very similar to the British system as it's difficult to sandbag with the well balanced program rules. However to compete you need the moves test at the level you want to compete or higher, but you can compete at that level with either the elements or program test.

[Sk8tmum]

Just freeskate test in Canada.  However, the elements portion of the test does have some portion of moves... The stroking patterns must be passed to complete the test successfully, and there are also field moves in the list of elements.

Tests are apparently being changed in Canada...we'll see what it looks like in the future.

[Tennisany1]

For those who are interested, the BC/YT Section is piloting the new StarSkate program and all the rules etc. are posted on the website: http://www.skatinginbc.com/technical/technical-updates. The first three updates deal directly with the new program.

[Sk8tmum]

For those who are interested, the BC/YT Section is piloting the new StarSkate program and all the rules etc. are posted on the website: http://www.skatinginbc.com/technical/technical-updates. The first three updates deal directly with the new program.

Thanks ... had heard about this, but, hadn't seen stuff on it yet.  Is there a more comprehensive outline on this elsewhere? 

[retired]

There will be presentations at the AGM but likely very high level.   If you keep in mind that the changes being made are for the sole purpose of putting medalists on a world podium, it will all make sense.    Kids learn tricks, then learn to do them under competition pressure but tricks come first.  Skate Canada has deflected any questions about "what about the kids who don't get all their jumps" to the Skating for Life portion of LTAD which is completely undefined, but comprises 90% of all skaters.    Lots of open questions still.

[Sk8tmum]

There will be presentations at the AGM but likely very high level.   If you keep in mind that the changes being made are for the sole purpose of putting medalists on a world podium, it will all make sense.    Kids learn tricks, then learn to do them under competition pressure but tricks come first.  Skate Canada has deflected any questions about "what about the kids who don't get all their jumps" to the Skating for Life portion of LTAD which is completely undefined, but comprises 90% of all skaters.    Lots of open questions still.

General consensus in our region is that the program is going to further drive down membership and interest; as it is, more involved and active sports are sucking away our figure skaters (especially the ones who comprise the bulk of skaters) - having them told that they can't do anything "fun" i.e. a program, but, they can go out there and do just the elements, or skate to a predetermined, likely not "fun" piece of music ... is not perceived as a good idea.  The Canskate Challenge idea is a good one, but, parents surveyed aren't interested in going to comps which are just "skills" - they want their kids to skate programs like real figure skaters do - so, enrolment in comps will likely drop, further impacting the revenue flow of smaller clubs who rely on their comps (not to mention that the regions are cutting back on the comps already). 

If the idea is to put people on a world podium, that's nice, but, if it means that the sport dies off ... then, Skate Canada will be cutting it's body off to try to support the head, and that just doesn't work.

[learning_as_i_go]

General consensus in our region is that the program is going to further drive down membership and interest; as it is, more involved and active sports are sucking away our figure skaters (especially the ones who comprise the bulk of skaters) - having them told that they can't do anything "fun" i.e. a program, but, they can go out there and do just the elements, or skate to a predetermined, likely not "fun" piece of music ... is not perceived as a good idea.  The Canskate Challenge idea is a good one, but, parents surveyed aren't interested in going to comps which are just "skills" - they want their kids to skate programs like real figure skaters do - so, enrolment in comps will likely drop, further impacting the revenue flow of smaller clubs who rely on their comps (not to mention that the regions are cutting back on the comps already). 

If the idea is to put people on a world podium, that's nice, but, if it means that the sport dies off ... then, Skate Canada will be cutting it's body off to try to support the head, and that just doesn't work.

I couldn't agree more!  For our coach the competitions were always the carrot - work hard/achieve this and we'll consider entering xyz competition.  My youngest has been hit with this and we've heard that there may still be something for her at the regional StarSkate comp in the winter but so far it looks like nothing else and she is really sad about it (especially as she'll have to go and watch my other 2 compete). She knows that if she works hard she'll get to competitions again in the future but to a little girl that just seems too far away.  I really don't think this has been well thought through for the long term of skating as a whole in Canada. 

[Sk8tmum]

I couldn't agree more!  For our coach the competitions were always the carrot - work hard/achieve this and we'll consider entering xyz competition.  My youngest has been hit with this and we've heard that there may still be something for her at the regional StarSkate comp in the winter but so far it looks like nothing else and she is really sad about it (especially as she'll have to go and watch my other 2 compete). She knows that if she works hard she'll get to competitions again in the future but to a little girl that just seems too far away.  I really don't think this has been well thought through for the long term of skating as a whole in Canada. 

What level, what region?   AFAIK, for the StarSkate challenges it'll just be pre-pre, and no restrictions. There will still be pre-pre with restrictions at other Invitationals I believe, and I did see Intro at some comps last year, which surprised me ... I thought they were gone for some reason.  From the looks of the BC model, even if they do still run pre-pre, it will not be truly a program.

[learning_as_i_go]

EOS - pre-prelim B or C (dependant on how her lutz comes along)
AFAIK - there will be no pre-prelim or prelim at invitationals  (or any other run section comps except for maybe EOSIC) they have been moved to different comps along with the canskate challenge comps called "future stars" but there is no word out yet on how they will run.  If it is a merit thing against the book it won't really interest us or her coach we'd rather wait for a test to be marked against the standard IYKWIM. 

[Sk8tmum]

EOS - pre-prelim B or C (dependant on how her lutz comes along)
AFAIK - there will be no pre-prelim or prelim at invitationals  (or any other run section comps except for maybe EOSIC) they have been moved to different comps along with the canskate challenge comps called "future stars" but there is no word out yet on how they will run.  If it is a merit thing against the book it won't really interest us or her coach we'd rather wait for a test to be marked against the standard IYKWIM.  

EOSIC will not have any "B" or "C". It will be pure pre-pre with no limitations - and it's in Whitby this year, which is in the far West end of the section. Not sure if you've seen the Well Balanced Program for 2012/13, it may be of interest to you - here's the link to the COS page - and it certainly seems that pre-pre is still up and running.  

http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Admin%20Coordinator/4%2030%2012%20STARSkate%20WBP%20criteria.pdf

I've got the EOS competition sanction bid form. The Invitationals will be Jr Bz and up, as will the Section Partnered Autumn and Winter Skate (Minto too). The Future Stars will have the pre-pre and the Pre, but, it indicates that they will still be judged OBO for the freeskate, dance, elements, etc., not against the Gold/Silver etc standard.  The elements will also be judged OBO, and those would have to be, I would think, Skate Canada judges as in the past.

The Interclubs, though, can run Canskate and Introductory, but, you're correct, judged against the "standards".

My Pre-Pre baby, fortunately for me (already supporting a Novice Comp and a high-test StarSkater) - doesn't want to compete!

[learning_as_i_go]

Yes - I knew that EOSIC was pure pre-pre (that's what it usually is) I was meaning if the changes weren't happening she'd probably be B for the next comp until the lutz is "there" 

I had seen the well balanced criteria and the changes are being applied to her new solo so we're all good for that. 

This was the last info I was given but I know it was subject to change and there hasn't been anything else given out yet....

http://www.skate-eos.on.ca/Documents/2012-13/12-13_CompetitionSanction-Memo.pdf

On that link it says the future stars comps will have OBO for pre-pre and prelim but as far as I know that was a bit of a question mark issue ..... I'm sure it will all become as clear as mud!!

[Sk8tmum]

Yes - I knew that EOSIC was pure pre-pre (that's what it usually is) I was meaning if the changes weren't happening she'd probably be B for the next comp until the lutz is "there" 

I had seen the well balanced criteria and the changes are being applied to her new solo so we're all good for that. 

This was the last info I was given but I know it was subject to change and there hasn't been anything else given out yet....

http://www.skate-eos.on.ca/Documents/2012-13/12-13_CompetitionSanction-Memo.pdf

On that link it says the future stars comps will have OBO for pre-pre and prelim but as far as I know that was a bit of a question mark issue ..... I'm sure it will all become as clear as mud!!

I posted just as you were, so we look like we're repeating ourselves!  All of the Sanctions have been awarded; the Comp Schedule is up, if that helps.

http://www.skate-eos.on.ca/competitionssub-club.html

http://www.skate-eos.on.ca/competitions.html

[learning_as_i_go]

 
I'd had a look - nice to hear that there may be a glimmer of hope as my pre-pre baby very much wants to compete (probably even more so than my older 2!)  She adores her 1min30 of fame LOL!

Are you EOS or COS?

[Sk8tmum]

I'd had a look - nice to hear that there may be a glimmer of hope as my pre-pre baby very much wants to compete (probably even more so than my older 2!)  She adores her 1min30 of fame LOL!

Are you EOS or COS?

EOS, but, with affiliations, history and ties with COS. Plus, a SC judge/evaluator in the family, and a SC TS as a close friend. So, hot topics over coffee are restructuring, rule changes, SC philosophies etc   Which is perhaps sad!

[learning_as_i_go]

LOL - at least you will be kept in hot topic conversations