USFSA Adult Moves

[AgnesNitt]

If this [Governing Council's proposed 2-year meeting schedule] will keep them from changing adult moves willy nilly, I'm all for it.


Mod note: thread split, per OP's suggestion.

[sarahspins]

If this will keep them from changing adult moves willy nilly, I'm all for it.

Agreed!  They changed them two years in a row and while I've heard that they have "no plans" to make any changes from this point, I don't feel very confident that they won't.  It's hard to work towards something when that something is a moving target!

[Skittl1321]

Agreed!  They changed them two years in a row and while I've heard that they have "no plans" to make any changes from this point, I don't feel very confident that they won't.  It's hard to work towards something when that something is a moving target!

I'm counting on it changing again actually
If it doesn't- it is a lost cause for me.

As for GC every two years- I think our club always sends a proxy, we don't have the money to send a delegate.  It is essentially moot to us, as we really have no voice at all.

[sarahspins]

I'm counting on it changing again actually
If it doesn't- it is a lost cause for me.

Well I can't say that I'd mind either.. the spiral sequence is still killer for me.. I think it would be great if it was reduced to simply one spiral on each leg/edge, but I know that still doesn't help people who for whatever reason can't do the spirals.  I probably could have tested and passed EVERYTHING last summer except for the forward/backward 3's on silver before the changes went into place... but I didn't have the 3's good enough to test then, and I knew I wouldn't before the changes went into effect.  Now that I have the 3's, I don't have the spirals (or my other moves tests taken yet.. but I'll work on that this summer).

[AgnesNitt]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but to me spirals are no more a skating skill than spread eagles are. They're a freestyle skill. They should be in Freestyle and that's all have I have to say about that.

[Skittl1321]

Well I can't say that I'd mind either.. the spiral sequence is still killer for me.. I think it would be great if it was reduced to simply one spiral on each leg/edge, but I know that still doesn't help people who for whatever reason can't do the spirals. 

As someone who has a hip injury that prevents them- yes it does help.  I can deal with the pain for A spiral.  It hurts like hell, and I often can't walk the next day but I can sort of do it.  I cannot do it 5 times.

Okay- I promise I won't mention spirals again in this thread.

(Also they aren't even a freeskating skill anymore- they aren't required elements, they are optional transitions.)

[Isk8NYC]

Truthfully, I can't imagine leaving spirals out of Moves tests in the first place.  It's a key skating component for freestyle, pairs and synchro, even if it's not a required element in competition.  That's why it's part of the Moves tests since those three disciplines all utilize spirals.  Moves testing isn't required for Ice Dancing, but I could see someone taking them for the challenge anyway, even they weren't skating freeskate.

Spreadeagles are a different story, imo. 

[sarahspins]

I don't disagree, but that silver pattern is punishing... I could see it being replaced with just one spiral on each edge/foot for adult, rather than the minimum of 8 spirals (and likely an average of 12) as it is now... I can get through about 3/4 of the pattern now, and occasionally get through the whole thing, but my back muscles are on fire by the end of it.

The intermediate spiral sequence is less demanding - sure you hold each spiral longer, but the pattern is skated with more speed and there are only 4 of them to hold... and 3 of them happen to favor my "good" spiral side.

[Skittl1321]

and 3 of them happen to favor my "good" spiral side.

I really wish moves patterns could be done in either direction around the rink. The way they favor CW skaters is so unfair-  the hardest part of most every pattern for me is the turn to change from forward to backward on the end pattern (or the entrance to a backward pattern), which is not technically part of the move, but vital.   If I could do the same pattern the other way around the rink it would be no problem at all!

On the bronze test, the 5-step mohawk has 3 patterns with my "hard" mohawk and 2 with my "easy" one (and at that time, down both ends of the rink).  I had to do almost twice (1.5x) as many bad mohawks as good mohawks!    And while you say the spirals favor your good side (I don't know which side you are referring to, so I don't know who is being favored here) there will be a skater where the move requires more on their bad side.

Why are they not more balanced? 


I was originally furious for skaters in my situation (it didn't effect me) when I first saw the cross over figure 8 pattern- but apparently that can be started to either side.  Thank goodness- that transition from forward to back is HARD for the level of the test!  (Of course, now they don't have to do the pre-bronze 3 turns the test is pretty easy, assuming you can get your leg up for a spiral).

[FigureSpins]

I really wish moves patterns could be done in either direction around the rink. The way they favor CW skaters is so unfair-  the hardest part of most every pattern for me is the turn to change from forward to backward on the end pattern (or the entrance to a backward pattern), which is not technically part of the move, but vital.   If I could do the same pattern the other way around the rink it would be no problem at all!

As several members have told you in the past, most of the patterns do allow the skater to start in either direction or on either foot/edge.  The tests book states when those options are available.  Start/End patterns are usually optional, as has been stated in the other threads when you brought this up.  They will not give a retest because you don't do the exact same *optional* end pattern as everyone else.

For those that are specified, you're out of luck.  You can either wish or work - your choice.

[Skittl1321]

For those that are specified, you're out of luck.  You can either wish or work - your choice.

This is SO condescending.  You think I haven't worked my butt off on the end patterns?

My point is that the tests are incredibly unbalanced.  They test skills on one side more than the other.  If they are supposed to show your overall ability as a skater- they should be designed to be balanced, so that people with weaknesses on either side have the weaknesses exposed.  If you can only show your good side on these end patterns, the option should be given for EVERYONE to show their good side only.  I spent more time working on entry patterns (and I did non-standard entries for many) for my bronze test than I did some of the moves.

I know I have weaknesses I need to work on, and I work on them.  But there are CCW skaters with the SAME weaknesses (their CCW turns are way better than their CW turns) don't have them exposed at all, because the tests favor them.  If they were required to go the other way around the rink, I know plenty of skaters who would have the same problem as I do.  But they aren't.  And moves with odd numbers of sequences favor them.  (I have never ever seen a 5-step mohawk start on the other foot, for example.  Maybe now that it is only half rink it could happen- but the old pattern, it couldn't because you'd be facing the wrong way for the end pattern.)

For moves that travel around the rink- if a choice can't be given- Flip a coin to determine the direction of the first move and alternate the direction the moves go like figures do.  Then everyone has to do both sides!  The direction around the rink should have no effect on the actual moves, if you are a well balanced skater.

[FigureSpins]

This is SO condescending.  You think I haven't worked my butt off on the end patterns?

Sorry, I was replying to the "I wish" - if the pattern doesn't have the option you wish for, you have to work for it.

I have no idea how hard you worked on those patterns, but if you're spending hours on optional end patterns, that's a waste of time.  Better to do a manageable (but different from everyone else) end pattern and focus on the required parts.

By the way, the Five Step Mohawk Sequence can be done in four or five lobes, per the test book. It doesn't offer the option of starting on the opposite foot. Most of the patterns offer that, along with a range of # lobes.  You shouldn't fret about doing one extra lobe in your weak direction - do four and it's perfectly balanced and symmetrical.  I get that the first one is a killer, but modify your optional entry steps to make it easier.  I prefer to enter that pattern on an angle, so the skater gets a nice, clean first edge to check properly.

I really don't think they set about making patterns that were unfair to CW skaters, sorry.  I think you're taking it too personally, like they're discriminating against CW skaters. 

Honestly, I wouldn't put a student up for a test if they needed a major accommodations for weaknesses.  It's one thing to say, "Well, your RFO3 is stronger, so let's start the Waltz 8 with the CW lobe" or "your right foot spiral is a little wobbly, let's start with it so you can finish with the stronger left."  and another to say "Your LFO3 is hit-or-miss, so let's start with the other side."  If a skater can't do both lobes to a passing standard, it's too soon for them to test.

[drskater]

I just started a new thread about the proposed changes to Adult freeskate tests in our "On the Ice" section. Sorry, if I should've started here.

Regardless, would love to hear your feedback. I'm a delegate this year and I suspect that the spin changes may cause a bit of a stir (or as much of a stir that can be mustered--most adult stuff doesn't attract a lot of attention at GC).

[Skittl1321]

I have no idea how hard you worked on those patterns, but if you're spending hours on optional end patterns, that's a waste of time.  Better to do a manageable (but different from everyone else) end pattern and focus on the required parts.

I spent hours on ANY end pattern.  For me, there wasn't a manageable one.  Although they aren't anymore- a few years ago both my cross strokes and power pulls would have been passable.  But there was no way for me to maintain my speed and turn around to the backward pattern.  It didn't matter if I turned at the end of the first length rather than right before starting the second length- I had to turn counter directional, which either caused me to lose speed (if I did an outside mohawk) or got me off pattern (anything else).  The coach wouldn't allow it, so I never tested (which is fine, my 8 step would have never passed).

On the bronze test I spent more time on the entrances than the moves because the moves did not cause a problem.  The entrances did!  We weren't spending hours crafting fancy entrances- we were spending hours getting me comfortable with turns that were supposedly NOT part of the test.  But they had to happen.  My coach would not let me turn counter directionally.   

The problem was never about me not being able to do the MOVE to pass.  I passed my bronze moves just fine.  I could have passed them way sooner if these entrances were not a concern.  The thing holding me back on backward power stroking and the move where you hold the back outside edges was a TURN, for example.  It had nothing to do with my ability to do the move.
 

I know they didn't set out to make moves unfair to CW skaters (and they didn't to well balanced CW skaters), but they did make them harder.  There are plenty of CCW skaters who have the same weaknesses I do.  But they get to move on in the levels because the test is not designed to show them.

[Kim to the Max]

If they were required to go the other way around the rink, I know plenty of skaters who would have the same problem as I do.

I will say that before they changed and condensed some of the moves, there were a lot of patterns at the higher levels that went both ways around the rink - intermediate back power 3's, novice quick 3 turns and quick rocker/choctaws and others. Some have been changed around, but those were the tests I took... And either direction, even it was my more comfortable/natural direction to turn were hard to do to passing standard.

Currently I am working on Senior Moves, and I have huge troubles with the LFI 2.5 twizzle because that is my non-dominant turning direction, so yesterday my temporary coach (regular coach just had her 2nd baby) spent a large portion of my lesson working on just that twizzle. And the double 3's/rocker-rocker are killer and generally I have one foot that I prefer.

I try to skate up to the challenge and I don't give up. I also face the fact that in my area I am 31 and testing standard track and the judges generally don't know what to do with me. But, I embrace the challenge!

[sarahspins]

And while you say the spirals favor your good side (I don't know which side you are referring to, so I don't know who is being favored here)

Okay, but spirals really don't favor one 'direction' of a skater or another.  I find spirals on my left leg easier, but my coach, who is also a CCW skater, finds them much easier on her right leg... it has more to do with flexibility than anything else... my left hip is more flexible than my right, which is something I am working on (I struggle with back camels because of the same issue, so it's not something that simply effects moves).  I don't actually have a ton of difficulty with spirals on my "bad" leg, it's just more work to do them, and it wears me out faster.  And I should add that the intermediate pattern is actually repeated on the "other" sides as well so it doesn't have any bias at all, I was just making the point that the pattern itself is less punishing than the prelim/silver spirals.. I think partly because it's skated faster and the spirals are held for a length that feels more natural, with not quite as much "quick, change!!" as the others are.

On the bronze test I spent more time on the entrances than the moves because the moves did not cause a problem.  The entrances did!  We weren't spending hours crafting fancy entrances- we were spending hours getting me comfortable with turns that were supposedly NOT part of the test.

Okay, technically they may not have been part of that test, but by the time you are "ready" to test bronze moves, the end pattern on the moves moves should not be such a huge obstacle.  If it was, then you weren't ready to test, regardless of whether the actual "moves" were passing standard or not.  The end patterns really come down to very basic skating skills and honestly do NOT favor one direction over another at that point.. if you can do an inside mohawk for the 5-step sequence, doing it on an end pattern shouldn't scare you at all.

[Skittl1321]

and honestly do NOT favor one direction over another at that point..

They all turn counterclockwise.  How is that not favoring the direction?

if you can do an inside mohawk for the 5-step sequence, doing it on an end pattern shouldn't scare you at all.

The speed required is totally different.



I realize it is what it is, but people go to so much trouble to tell me how it doesn't matter, if it doesn't matter than the move should be able to be done either way.  Clearly it DOES matter.  It might not matter to them, because they don't find it difficult.   Like I said- I know plenty of skaters who have the same (opposite) imbalances as me.  But the moves don't expose it, so they breeze through.   

There are a lot of skaters (and unfortunately I'm one of them) who can pass the 5-step mohawk and power 3 turns, but as soon as you change the angle of the turn, it becomes foreign.  People who don't struggle with these things have no idea what a difference it makes.

Just like the new proposed spin change doesn't really matter to me, but will matter A LOT to someone whose best spin was an attitude, and now that they can do that won't "count".

[sarahspins]

But the moves don't expose it, so they breeze through.

Please give a good example of where exactly this is the case... because I can't honestly see one move where this so called bias would let one skater breeze through while another struggles.. the turns in the moves are really very balanced.

[Skittl1321]

Please give a good example of where exactly this is the case... because I can't honestly see one move where this so called bias would let one skater breeze through while another struggles.. the turns in the moves are really very balanced.

I already mentioned multiple.  Two on the bronze test:  the backwards power stroking (alternating crossovers), and the back crossovers to outside edge.  On the silver test:  cross strokes and power pulls.

An unbalanced CW skater struggles with the move because of the turn from forward to backwards to start the move or to transition from forward skating to backward skating.  The CCW skater who struggles with their CW turns only has to turn in their favored direction.    I am not the only person who has this issue.  I know other people who have had the exact same frustration.  If the moves all went around the rink the other way, I know of skaters who would have trouble doing exactly what I have trouble doing.

Time better spent working on other skills.  So maybe I should be happy, because I HAVE to work through my weaknesses when other skaters can ignore them.   Instead I'm annoyed about the time I have to put into transition turns instead of working on the harder moves.

[FigureSpins]

the backwards power stroking (alternating crossovers)

True - complete set pattern, no options to reverse starting direction.  The transition does contain one RFI mohawk but the end pattern is CCW crossovers, which should be in your strong direction, so that's an advantage.  There is a timing note on that mohawk, but it's to hold the beat longer, not to do it at top speed quickly.

the back crossovers to outside edge. 

Beginning/ending patterns are completely optional; most people start with a "u-turn" entrance for edging.  You can choose to do four and have it be symmetrical and even on both sides. 

Not sure why this one is an issue for you - they're two-foot transition crossovers into checked landing edges.  A skater should be able to do landing edges on either foot at this point, imo.  Is that the difficulty or is it the optional beginning/end pattern?

cross strokes

Beginning/ending patterns are completely optional and the pattern can start on either foot.

power pulls

Beginning/ending patterns are completely optional and the pattern can start on either foot.

One out of the four examples you cited was valid, but I don't think that's enough to accuse the USFSA of "favoring" CCW skaters.  The printed patterns are often just examples; the tests book highlights which ones can be reversed, started on a different foot and have optional beginning/ending patterns.

I guess you could propose that they change the "Forward and backward perimeter power stroking" pattern to allow an opposite-direction option, but this begs the question of whether or not the skater is truly ready for the test level if every turn in the opposite direction is a major show-stopper.

It also sounds like your coach is trying to make you a more balanced skater with the challenging (for you) transitions but training drills would be a better use of ice time than risky transitions, imo.

[drskater]

I really wish moves patterns could be done in either direction around the rink. The way they favor CW skaters is so unfair-  the hardest part of most every pattern for me is the turn to change from forward to backward on the end pattern (or the entrance to a backward pattern), which is not technically part of the move, but vital.

Skittl (trying to be helpful here),

You specifically mentioned the transitions from forwards to backwards on the Adult Silver test for cross rolls and power pulls. If you performed these the way my coach tells me to do it--from crossovers to a RFI mohawk, I agree with the notion you'd be at a disadvantage (I'm CWW).

However, the entrance is optional and the diagram specifically allows you to enter the backwards elements on two feet. For example, you could do forward cross rolls starting from a dead stop, stroke or glide or swizzle around the end, and then turn on two feet (albeit a two foot three turn to your "bad' side) and then continue backwards.

The point I'm trying to make is that the test does allow some flexibility with the exact transitions you say are a problem for you. Perhaps you could simply get around the issues you cite by doing them a different way?

[Skittl1321]

or is it the optional beginning/end pattern?

This.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the moves themselves.   In the end I started facing the hockey circle. Did a single push and a 3 turn and then skated back crossovers to start the move.   One judge (who was not judging my test) did not like the entry because I began with backward crossovers before I began the move.  He commented to my coach that she should not have allowed me to do that.

Beginning/ending patterns are completely optional and the pattern can start on either foot.

The transition from skating forward to skating backwards only goes one way around the rink. Turning counter rotationally pulls you off the pattern to begin the backwards skating.   You can say all you want that these are optional and don't matter- but there is no good way to do the transition if you aren't as strong in the CCW direction.   It's fine that you can say "you aren't ready to take the test if you can't do the turn"  -- but if the test were reversed there would be OTHER people who aren't ready to take the test by the same measure.  But it isn't a problem from them because they don't have to deal with a turn in their harder direction.  There IS bias.


Only one example was valid?  Then how come I can do the move with no break in flow the wrong way around the rink, but it looks like absolute (blocked) the other way around the rink?  Oh, that's invalid.  Bull (blocked).

I'd love to hear of a good entrance, on either foot, to these moves that does not require a CCW turn.  Same with the transition from forward to backward on the moves with two sides to the pattern.  There isn't one.  There are many ways to enter/transition- but pretty much every one of them require a CCW turn.  (As I said below, I worked for awhile with an outside mohawk, to do a CW entry for some of the silver moves- but it was ackward.  But I don't know many people doing bronze moves who can do those well. I certainly couldn't then.)

I passed the bronze test years ago, it is moot.  I never intend to take the current silver test.  I'm just baffled that because bias doesn't affect other people they can't recognize that it is present.

[Skittl1321]

Perhaps you could simply get around the issues you cite by doing them a different way?

This is what we do- but there is no easy different way.

Last I was trying it I was doing a LFO mohawk.  It wasn't an easy way to go about it, but better than any of the turns in the other direction.  The problem is, from the back outside edge, it is difficult to enter into the pattern of backwards power pulls.

[sarahspins]

One out of the four examples you cited was valid, but I don't think that's enough to accuse the USFSA of "favoring" CCW skaters.  You could propose that they change that one to allow an opposite-direction option, but this begs the question of whether or not the skater is truly ready for the test level if every turn in the opposite direction is a major show-stopper.

EXACTLY!  If someone is struggling at that level to do a simple turn then I don't think they're ready to take the test... end of story.  It's not about favoring a side or direction, it's just about basic skating skills... if you don't have it, work at it.  If you've been working on it, just keep working on it... it's not that complicated.

Of the examples, I don't even really see where the first actually favors a CCW skater.  Yes, it's a set pattern and that's unfortunate if you happen to prefer CW crossovers, but at that test level, you've already tested crossovers BOTH directions forwards and back so it shouldn't be a huge hurdle.   Your argument for power pulls and cross strokes "favoring" CCW skaters is completely lost on me.  I could do a CW mohawk (an outside one) to go into those just as easily as a CCW inside mohawk.  I could do it going around the other direction of the rink (and in fact, in my bronze test program, I go into a couple of back cross strokes after going around the end of the rink CW doing CW waltz-3's, and those follow a spin, so I'm super dizzy to start with, and turning the opposite direction was killer at first, but the more I did it, the easier it got)  I don't have to rely on speed going into either the cross strokes or the power pulls to be able to do them.  I can do power pulls from a dead stop forwards or backwards.  At the level where a skater is ready to take those tests, just turning to get into the move shouldn't be the overwhelming obstacle on the test.

I think any skater who skips over simple things like being able to do a mohawk at speed (in either direction) to get to the "harder stuff" is doing themselves a great disservice.... what's the point of going on to work on the "harder stuff" if you can't do the basic stuff?  It just makes things that much harder later on.

I don't appreciate the notion that "the rest of us" don't have to work very hard to be balanced skaters.  I work extemely hard at overcoming my weaknesses.  I have several VERY profound physical problems that interfere immensely with my skating (more than you will probably EVER understand), but I don't use them as an excuse and I certainly don't let those things convince me that I "can't" do things or whine about how I can't do "X" because of "Y".  If it can be done, I can try to do it too.

The problem is, from the back outside edge, it is difficult to enter into the pattern of backwards power pulls.

Ummmm.. I start the back power pulls from a RBO edge!  It's just how I prefer to do it.  Usually I do a CCW RI mohawk and then step onto the backwards edge, but I could do it turning the other way, or I could start on the left foot too.. it doesn't really matter.  It SHOULDN'T matter for someone who is ready to take that test.  You can start on either foot or either edge - and since I prefer starting from an outside edge, I start the forward ones on my left foot, and backwards on my right.

Honestly the point is not moot - you have passed years ago, but if you were to take the tests today, could you pass now?  I don't think regressing in skills when you've BEEN skating all this time is really reasonable.

[Skittl1321]

EXACTLY!  If someone is struggling at that level to do a simple turn then I don't think they're ready to take the test... end of story.  It's not about favoring a side or direction, it's just about basic skating skills... if you don't have it, work at it.  If you've been working on it, just keep working on it... it's not that complicated.

If flipping the move to go the other way around the rink makes it INCREDIBLY easy - then there is bias.  If there wasn't bias it would be the same difficulty in either direction.  I recognize that my basic skating needs work.  But I'm being made to work on something that other skaters are not.  I've seen them struggle when the coaches play "moves the other way"- they don't have that struggle on their tests.

CCW skaters are not having to work nearly as hard on their weak side - to pass the test.  Sure, they have to do the turns within that pattern, but as I said- for many low level skaters, once you take the skill out of the context of the pattern it becomes foreign to them on their non-favored side. (I'm one of these people.  I can do the power three turn with flying colors.  But the FS5 spiral-3-turn-spiral, I can't even come close to doing the three turn on the bad side. A three turn is not just a three turn for me.)  So for all these transitions that don't matter- they don't even have to think about them.  I have to work harder on them than on the actual move pattern in many cases.

I don't appreciate the notion that "the rest of us" don't have to work very hard to be balanced skaters.

I never said people did not have to work very hard to become balanced skaters.  People who are truly well balanced skaters have worked very hard for it. What I said is that the moves tests are not balanced.  I am not a well balanced skater.  I probably never will be though I spend 10x more on my hard turns than my easy ones (literally, when I practice I do 10 turns on the bad side for every easy one I do. I keep a checklist.) What I'm saying is that unbalanced CCW skaters can get away with weakness more easily in their skating on moves tests (and I know many that do) because they aren't asked to do these turns "that don't matter" on the side  that is more difficult for them.

Of the examples, I don't even really see where the first actually favors a CCW skater.  Yes, it's a set pattern and that's unfortunate if you happen to prefer CW crossovers, but at that test level, you've already tested crossovers BOTH directions forwards and back so it shouldn't be a huge hurdle.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the crossovers.  Has to do with the turn to start the crossovers.

Honestly the point is not moot - you have passed years ago, but if you were to take the tests today, could you pass now?  I don't think regressing in skills when you've BEEN skating all this time is really reasonable.

Yes- I could pass the bronze moves again today, although I'd struggle just as much with the entry. I'd likely do a lot better with the speed and flow inside the moves.

I can no longer do silver moves to the standard I was practicing them due to multiple injuries.