Music lessons and skating?

[jjane45]

There was a recent discussion in FSU MITF forum on improving rhythm with dance lessons, and people brought up learning an instrument can improve rhythm / timing / music interpretation.

What kind of basic music training would you recommend to figure skaters? And to ice dancers specifically?

(It's more of a general question, although my personal concern is hearing the beats in ice dance music lol)

[kiwiskater]

As someone from a music background I'd say any form of learning either to play or even singing would help, what you are teaching them is to understand the underlying rhythms in the music and they learn how to count beats in music which is essential to both music & skating. My coach used musical rhythms recently to demonstrate how to make my 3 turns evenly distributed because I tend to have a longer lead in & shorter glide out

[Bunny Hop]

People with a musical background definitely have an advantage in terms of timing, particularly in ice dance. My husband learnt an instrument as a child/teen and his sense of timing is very good indeed. What I'm not so sure about, is whether trying to learn an instrument as an adult would help - I didn't have formal music lessons as a child (although taught myself to play basic tunes on a few instruments) but have meddled in playing the piano as an adult. This has had no effect on my timing whatsoever (i.e. it's still pretty bad). Possibly it's too little too late.

[jjane45]

What I'm not so sure about, is whether trying to learn an instrument as an adult would help... Possibly it's too little too late.

Exactly my concern. Wondering if there is a way without involving an (advanced) instrument?

As someone from a music background I'd say any form of learning either to play or even singing would help, what you are teaching them is to understand the underlying rhythms in the music and they learn how to count beats in music which is essential to both music & skating.

Vocal lessons maybe?

I looked for music with strong beats and counted along it

[MadMac]

For learning to count & feel the rhythm I highly recommend learning to tap dance!

[davincisop]

singing helps a LOT. I come from a classical voice background and my coach can tell because she has said I can interpret music really well. Guess that comes from having to interpret italian arias!

[Clarice]

I think that learning to play a musical instrument would certainly help you with counting and phrasing, but I don't think it's the most efficient way to do it.  If you want to learn to play an instrument anyway, go for it, it will be helpful.  But if the only reason you want to play is to improve your sense of rhythm, I think there are better ways to do it.  You'll spend an awful lot of time learning to read music and learning the mechanics of the instrument.  If what you want to do is learn to move in time to music, I think your time will be better spent in activities where you do just that - in other words, more dance classes.  It's no secret I'm a big fan of ballet for skaters, but I think many dance disciplines would do the job.  Personally, I cross train in ballroom, and am finding it very beneficial.

[kiwiskater]

People with a musical background definitely have an advantage in terms of timing, particularly in ice dance. My husband learnt an instrument as a child/teen and his sense of timing is very good indeed. What I'm not so sure about, is whether trying to learn an instrument as an adult would help - I didn't have formal music lessons as a child (although taught myself to play basic tunes on a few instruments) but have meddled in playing the piano as an adult. This has had no effect on my timing whatsoever (i.e. it's still pretty bad). Possibly it's too little too late.

I wouldn't say its too late, you just need someone to learn from - its like trying to teach yourself to skate - you are never too old but you are limited by what you know in order to teach yourself. Counting was never my strong point but with a teacher there alongside you helping you where you get it wrong - if necessary I've had teachers who tap out the beat for you while you play through a section you are struggling in.

For learning to count & feel the rhythm I highly recommend learning to tap dance!

Sorry Mac I'm going to disagree on the 'feel' part of your statement - you will never get the music right if you just counts beats & rhythms, its about the expression and feeling as well.

You'll spend an awful lot of time learning to read music and learning the mechanics of the instrument.

Actually it doesn't take that long to learn to read music, the mechanics of an instrument maybe - but that all depends on ho well you want to earn how to play, but again with singing there is no physical instrument learning there..

but I totally agree with both Mac & Clarice - if you prefer to dance than to learn instrument/voice they would both have a similar outcome

[jjane45]

The problem for me more likely lies in the music processing power of my brain, I move to the metronome fine... (CPU upgrade in order, sigh)

I'd prefer trying basic music training, instead of struggling thru dance lessons due to the very same deficiency. Agree that learning an instrument may not be the most efficient. Any exercises to train precise identification of beats and phrasing, other than singing along the music?

Thank you so much all!

[fsk8r]

The problem for me more likely lies in the music processing power of my brain, I move to the metronome fine... (CPU upgrade in order, sigh)

I'd prefer trying basic music training, instead of struggling thru dance lessons due to the very same deficiency. Agree that learning an instrument may not be the most efficient. Any exercises to train precise identification of beats and phrasing, other than singing along the music?

Thank you so much all!

When I was learning the piano part of the exams was the aural. This was about listening to the music and identifying beats, rhythms and phrasing. It was an integral part of the examination process as it showed that not only had you learnt how to play the set pieces but you also had an understanding of music in general. It's from practicing those parts of the exams that the emphasis on identifying the beat was trained into me. However, it doesn't necessarily translate into ice dance (or ballroom for that matter). I can count music fine, but getting my legs to move in time to the music that's a different skill. I'm finding that that skill just takes practice. Synchro is actually very good for me in that regard as the extra practice means that I'm getting better at getting the legs to move at the right time.

[Bunny Hop]

I wouldn't say its too late, you just need someone to learn from - its like trying to teach yourself to skate - you are never too old but you are limited by what you know in order to teach yourself. Counting was never my strong point but with a teacher there alongside you helping you where you get it wrong - if necessary I've had teachers who tap out the beat for you while you play through a section you are struggling in.

Husband gets very frustrated listening to my attempts at piano because I have trouble keeping the beats even, and will play the easy bits faster and the difficult bits slower. Or I play the piece how I've heard it interpreted rather than what the music says. Other people counting the beat for me makes me nervous and I can't play at all. We have a metronome, but it's evil and hates me. 

But I digress. I don't have the same problems when skating because I just follow husband. The ability to follow is actually quite helpful when skating with a partner, so I don't let it bother me that much.

[SK8N]

How about drum lessons?  I took drum lessons as a teenager and didn't have to go into too much detail with music reading.  With the drum, you're mostly concerned with the beat.  I have more problems counting without music than with the music.  With the music, I can easily hear the beat to count to.  Without it, my counting speed is inconsistent.

[Sk8tmum]

My kid is a natural musician; sightreads flawlessly, rhythm comes easily, plays in two different orchestras and more than one instrument.  The kid every other kid hates in music class who never has to practice to to get the rhythm and speed and intonation right. Can play a piece having heard it once in perfect rhythm, or read it straight off the music sheet.

Drove 3 dance coaches and one choreographer nearly to tears until they realized that there was no rhythm in "the feet" just in the head and the hands.  Couldn't skate to a musical rhythm for love or money (actually, a few bribes were offered).  They end up having to use music that had specific musical highlights to time jumps and choreo; and troll through the various ISU tracks to find the dance music with the most obvious beats.

Then again, my kid is often marching to the beat of a different drummer on so many fronts! 

[kiwiskater]

Husband gets very frustrated listening to my attempts at piano because I have trouble keeping the beats even, and will play the easy bits faster and the difficult bits slower. Or I play the piece how I've heard it interpreted rather than what the music says. Other people counting the beat for me makes me nervous and I can't play at all. We have a metronome, but it's evil and hates me. 

But I digress. I don't have the same problems when skating because I just follow husband. The ability to follow is actually quite helpful when skating with a partner, so I don't let it bother me that much.

All metronomes are evil 

My kid is a natural musician; sightreads flawlessly, rhythm comes easily, plays in two different orchestras and more than one instrument.  The kid every other kid hates in music class who never has to practice to to get the rhythm and speed and intonation right. Can play a piece having heard it once in perfect rhythm, or read it straight off the music sheet.

Drove 3 dance coaches and one choreographer nearly to tears until they realized that there was no rhythm in "the feet" just in the head and the hands.  Couldn't skate to a musical rhythm for love or money (actually, a few bribes were offered).  They end up having to use music that had specific musical highlights to time jumps and choreo; and troll through the various ISU tracks to find the dance music with the most obvious beats.

Then again, my kid is often marching to the beat of a different drummer on so many fronts!  

LMAO - but seriously you have a great suggestion there (that was lurking in the back of my mind), wherever possible learn the specific sequence of music that corresponds with a move on the ice, then you just have to learn to adjust your speed so that you land in the right place at the right time