Confused about juvenile spins....

[jumpingbeansmom]

Although my dd did a great job this weekend, her very last spin was given no value at all.   She may have pulled off a top 10 finish otherwise.  

She has 3 spins in her program-  the first is a combination with back camel, one with her leg in the air (don't know the name LOL) and a pancake.  Then later she has her flying spin which starts with sit and changes to a broken leg (change foot)-  her last is a turtle spin.   Under what circumstance would she got nothing at all?

[kssk8fan]

I don't know what a turtle spin is but you cannot repeat the same position any longer.   It seems that your daughter did a flying sit spin into a broken leg spin.....if a turtle spin is a variation of the basic sit, it is not of different nature as the flying sit.   

1 flying entry* (may change feet)   Max 3
1 spin combination; w/without change of foot* May fly
1 spin with only 1 position No fly and no change of foot* 
Min 5 rev; 8 for combo; min 2 revs in position  Spins must be of a different nature

[jumpingbeansmom]

I don't know what a turtle spin is but you cannot repeat the same position any longer.   It seems that your daughter did a flying sit spin into a broken leg spin.....if a turtle spin is a variation of the basic sit, it is not of different nature as the flying sit.    

1 flying entry* (may change feet)   Max 3
1 spin combination; w/without change of foot* May fly
1 spin with only 1 position No fly and no change of foot*  
Min 5 rev; 8 for combo; min 2 revs in position  Spins must be of a different nature

Hmm... could be....but at a previous competition it was counted as different-- of course newish rules and different judges could yield different results right?  She may just have to practice that layback more  

I also noticed an overall difference in scores from one competition to the next-- it seems as if the one we just went to, the scores 'generally' especially component scores were lower. 

[Sk8tmum]

Okay, did she get it called as an invalid item (which would mean she repeated something) or just as a zero?  If she didn't get the required revolutions, for instance, she would get scored as a zero.  At least, if it's the same as our Canadian detail sheets.

[jumpingbeansmom]

Okay, did she get it called as an invalid item (which would mean she repeated something) or just as a zero?  If she didn't get the required revolutions, for instance, she would get scored as a zero.  At least, if it's the same as our Canadian detail sheets.

Apparently it was called invalid because she wasn't low enough?? Fixable I guess!

[fsk8r]

Apparently it was called invalid because she wasn't low enough?? Fixable I guess!

Was it a zero for the spin (which would mean not low enough or some other such problem which is fixable) or did it just get a blank (which means that the element was invalid as per the competition requirements)?

[jumpingbeansmom]

Was it a zero for the spin (which would mean not low enough or some other such problem which is fixable) or did it just get a blank (which means that the element was invalid as per the competition requirements)?

It was blank-  like dashes in the spot where a score should have been.  My dd told me this morning that it was because she started in the regular sit position and then changed after one revolution to turtle-- I am not sure I understand but she seems to.   

[Sk8tmum]

She didn't hold the sit long enough for it to count; you have to hold the basic position for a certain number of revolutions before it counts.  BTW: what is a turtle spin?? I'm trying to figure it out ... it's a new term for me.

[twokidsskatemom]

What is a turtle?Is that the same as pancake? What was her total score?
Did you ask her coach yet? Would be interested in the answer. I know the ISU /USFSA just changed the spins rules effective June.
They cant repeat or doesnt count.

[jumpingbeansmom]

What is a turtle?Is that the same as pancake? What was her total score?
Did you ask her coach yet? Would be interested in the answer. I know the ISU /USFSA just changed the spins rules effective June.
They cant repeat or doesnt count.

I did, he said to me that it was not low enough, but she said to me that the other coach said the basic sit wasn't held long enough??  The turtle (at least that is what the kid is calling it) is the one where the free leg is bent under the other leg rather than over (like in a pancake).   Other girls did both pancake position and that position-  and her pancake was part of a combination.

[twokidsskatemom]

We call it a tuck spin.Its in my DD combo too but hers starts with a camel.
At least you can fix it before regionals!

[Sk8tmum]

We call it a squeegee spin.  Anyways, the simple thing is that your kid has it right - not enough revs to count the spin.  One wouldn't be nearly enough.

[jumpingbeansmom]

We call it a squeegee spin.  Anyways, the simple thing is that your kid has it right - not enough revs to count the spin.  One wouldn't be nearly enough.

No, she had one in the basic sit position, then changed to the tuck...I just watched the video and she had 5-6 in the tuck position after that.  I am still a little confused.

[Sk8tmum]

Okay. In the tuck. Was her skating leg at least horizontal?  If her buttocks were above her skating leg, it would be an USp. What code was printed on the sheet for the spin? Does it say something like SSP1, or USP1, or some such - ? Just trying to figure out what the caller called the spin as. Would also help to know what the codes were for the other spins ... just to see if it was considered to be a repeated spin.

[jumpingbeansmom]

Okay. In the tuck. Was her skating leg at least horizontal?  If her buttocks were above her skating leg, it would be an USp. What code was printed on the sheet for the spin? Does it say something like SSP1, or USP1, or some such - ? Just trying to figure out what the caller called the spin as. Would also help to know what the codes were for the other spins ... just to see if it was considered to be a repeated spin.

It was ssp-  What is USp?  The other spin was a flying sit with change of foot (it was a death drop), and the first was combination with change of foot (however you abbreviate that)

[Sk8tmum]

SSP - sit spin. It would have a number after it for the level (if they give levels in Juvenile in the States, here they are all L1 at that level).
Usp - Upright spin. What a Sit spin gets called when it's not low enough, and, also, the actual spin in an upright position.
FSSp - is a deathdrop.
CCO (whatever) - that's a combination with a change of foot.

If you're looking at the detail sheet, you'll see those abbreviations.

If you really want to delve into the wonderful world of spins and all that, go to the ISU site below, and look for the SOV communication 1611 which has all the rules on spins (and everything else). Great light reading!!!!

http://isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-185235-202457-nav-list,00.html

[jumpingbeansmom]

SSP - sit spin. It would have a number after it for the level (if they give levels in Juvenile in the States, here they are all L1 at that level).
Usp - Upright spin. What a Sit spin gets called when it's not low enough, and, also, the actual spin in an upright position.
FSSp - is a deathdrop.
CCO (whatever) - that's a combination with a change of foot.

If you're looking at the detail sheet, you'll see those abbreviations.

If you really want to delve into the wonderful world of spins and all that, go to the ISU site below, and look for the SOV communication 1611 which has all the rules on spins (and everything else). Great light reading!!!!

http://isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-185235-202457-nav-list,00.html

Yikes, it was definitely ssp1- that is all they were going for I think.  I will need to check the flying one and see what it was called as- it was meant to be flying sit with change of foot and difficult position.  Gotta find the sheet

[jumpingbeansmom]

The spin was not low enough in position, so they called it as not attaining basic position-  she only got level 2 on her combo too as the pancake was also not low enough.  Even the winner of the whole shebang didn't get her tuck spin counted--- my dd was actually much closer to parallel than most of the other girls in her group so I guess at least she set the bar high going first!   It was a tough panel of judges and this explains why the scores were overall lower than the last competition (so many spins not counting)

[Sk8tmum]

They have tightened up the rules on Sits this year; it used to be that the buttock (bottom) was to be even with the skating knee; now, the leg has to be parallel to the ice at a minimum, which is generally lower than the old description. I've seen the results in a few competitions - kids are getting called with invalid spins where they were valid last year.

Our test track skaters "get away" with a bit more wiggle room on the issue, however, the competitive track kids - no way. It has to be a true sit.

[jumpingbeansmom]

They have tightened up the rules on Sits this year; it used to be that the buttock (bottom) was to be even with the skating knee; now, the leg has to be parallel to the ice at a minimum, which is generally lower than the old description. I've seen the results in a few competitions - kids are getting called with invalid spins where they were valid last year.

Our test track skaters "get away" with a bit more wiggle room on the issue, however, the competitive track kids - no way. It has to be a true sit.

The good news is my dd was a heck of a lot closer, especially in the tuck position, than a lot of the other kids.  She will have that fixed up pretty soon I am sure.

[kssk8fan]

FYI....to muddy up the spinning waters now....the IJS now will count intermediate positions!  odd to me but whatever!!

[techskater]

IJS has ALWAYS counted intermediate positions in CoSp and CCoSp, but it has to be in one of those.

[kssk8fan]

techskater....

so the intermediate position has to be in either the CoSp or the CCoSp?  I know it's always been counted as a variation or feature of a spin but I thought I read where it's now counted as a position itself.  I hope I'm wrong!  IMO, I'm not a huge fan of the intermediate positions - especially the intermediate sit spin position.  To me, it looks like the skater just can't get low enough!  HAHA    But then again, I hate the change edge upright spin too.....thank goodness that doesn't count anymore

[techskater]

Intermediate positions don't count in one position spins.  That's what gives a Mrs. Dash.  If you start a sit and you come up too far when changing to a difficult variation too long or the variation doesn't get back down, then you get Mrs. Dash.