what is the difference in skating levels????

[jenniturtle]

I have a question that no parent seems to be able to answer. I asked my dd's coach what level my dd would most likely be competing in for the coming year. she is testing prepre soon. she said that if she gets her axel she would skate preliminary and if not she would skate pre pre. another girl my DD skates with is skating preliminary and does not have an axel so why does she not want my daughter to skate that as well? when I asked her she said my DD was higher than that. Meaning what?

[Sk8tmum]

It's not all about the axel; it's about the entire spectrum of skating abilities, including spins, footwork, and other jumps.  The axel can become a sticking point as it is such a milestone for many skaters. However, there are skaters who land nice doubles who still barely rotate an axel ...

The other kid may be on a different "stage" in terms of the rest of her skating; may be a different age; may be working on different things. It's all about the coaches best judgement.

BTW: my DD placed well ahead of other skaters WITH an axel and double jumps skating at Senior Bronze (which is all doubles up to and including 2lz) based on strong skating skills, high value spins, and quality of presentation and huge, clean single jumps and singles in combinations - and with only one very shaky double, and no axel - and that was at our StarSkate regional qualifiers.

[Skittl1321]

The reason your daughter's coach does not want her skating in preliminary without an axel is that MOST skaters will have one.  You do not NEED one to test into the level, but you generally need one to be competitive.  Your coach may be grooming her into a more competitive skater.  Hopefully she doesn't have the attitude that it isn't worth skating if you can't win, but she clearly wants your daughter to be able to challenge for a medal.  

[phoenix]

Also, the other girl w/ no axel competing preliminary may be competing test track, which would mean an axel isn't even allowed.

[hopskipjump]

I think it depends on your area as well.  Here almost everyone in prepre has an axel.  When dd has a 90 percent consistent 2s (or other double) she can test for preliminary freeskate.  There is a difference when comparing moves in the field though - while freeskate test passed might be prepre, most are on pre-juv or juv moves.  I didn't understand that kids can have different moves and freeskate levels at first.  It's not that her coach is pushy, it's just what everyone in the area does!

Good point about the test track!  

[jenniturtle]

The reason your daughter's coach does not want her skating in preliminary without an axel is that MOST skaters will have one.  You do not NEED one to test into the level, but you generally need one to be competitive.  Your coach may be grooming her into a more competitive skater.  Hopefully she doesn't have the attitude that it isn't worth skating if you can't win, but she clearly wants your daughter to be able to challenge for a medal.  

I think you are right about her coach wanting her to be a competitive skater. She is always saying that my dd has it in her to come in first. If only my DD believed that, she is content to place in the middle. She and the other girl are both starting to work on their axels and doubles. my dd just finished FS6 in January. she last competed inFS4 in September. therefore she has no program that she can compete with at this point.

[jenniturtle]

Also, the other girl w/ no axel competing preliminary may be competing test track, which would mean an axel isn't even allowed.

no, she competed against other girls with axels last year when she didn't have one.

[hopskipjump]

I'd be a little worried if dd hears she has it in her to be first.  That can cause a little anxiety.

Our coach always focuses on having a good skate - that she isn't competing against the other girls she is skating against herself - trying to score better than her last skate.  Or it's on a new element she has been working on - getting that clean.  If first happens, great...but if a good clean skate happens, even better.   

[isakswings]

no, she competed against other girls with axels last year when she didn't have one.

This skater competed in preliminary without an axel? My daughter just moved up to preliminary and I was under the impression that the axel was a required jump at this level. At least that is what I have read in all the local competition announcements. OR perhaps it said "axel or axel-type jump". Interesting.  Most skaters around here compete with doubles at this level but all compete with axels unless they are test track. I thought that was fairly standard. It is also standard here to have an axel in pre-pre. Kids who do not want to compete with axels, typically compete non-test(in our area). Axels aren't required in pre-pre but around here, the majority of kids competing at that level are jumping axels and axel combinations. Very interesting indeed!

[jenniturtle]

This skater competed in preliminary without an axel? My daughter just moved up to preliminary and I was under the impression that the axel was a required jump at this level. At least that is what I have read in all the local competition announcements. OR perhaps it said "axel or axel-type jump". Interesting.  Most skaters around here compete with doubles at this level but all compete with axels unless they are test track. I thought that was fairly standard. It is also standard here to have an axel in pre-pre. Kids who do not want to compete with axels, typically compete non-test(in our area). Axels aren't required in pre-pre but around here, the majority of kids competing at that level are jumping axels and axel combinations. Very interesting indeed!

I must not read the annoucements right or don't understand because everyone I read says no axels- single rotation jumps only for pre pre. also including no flying entry spins. See how confused I am? How can you compete with them when it says they are not allowed?

[Skittl1321]

I must not read the annoucements right or don't understand because everyone I read says no axels- single rotation jumps only for pre pre. also including no flying entry spins. See how confused I am? How can you compete with them when it says they are not allowed?

Non-qualifying competitions can tailor their own rules.  If you two are in a different area, the rules may be different.

In the USFS rulebook, axels are permitted in pre-preliminary. No doubles.
Axel-type jump is required for preliminary, but a waltz-jump is considered an axel-type.


For test-track events, pre-pre can only have single jumps through loop (no flip, lutz, or axel permitted).  Prepreliminary and Pre-juv also cannot have an axel.   These events are designed to have skaters competing more closely to the test requirement. 

[jenniturtle]

Non-qualifying competitions can tailor their own rules.  If you two are in a different area, the rules may be different.

In the USFS rulebook, axels are permitted in pre-preliminary. No doubles.
Axel-type jump is required for preliminary, but a waltz-jump is considered an axel-type.


For test-track events, pre-pre can only have single jumps through loop (no flip, lutz, or axel permitted).  Prepreliminary and Pre-juv also cannot have an axel.   These events are designed to have skaters competing more closely to the test requirement. 

okay I think i am close to getting it!! Me so smart. some skaters skate well balanced and some test track. it looks like my DD will be skating the well balanced track while the other girl skates test track.

[Skittl1321]

It IS confusing.  But that seems to be what is happening.

Test track is relatively new.  In the past (well, still) there were lots of complaints of skaters "sand-bagging" - holding back on testing just to win lower levels.  The test track was created for less competitive skaters to skate elements that match the tests required to get in the level.  For more competitive skaters, there is a fine line between "sandbagging" and holding back to perfect more difficult elements.  In the lower levels, it is slightly less important- but once you get to the qualifying levels (juvenile I think? I don't skate standard track, so I'm not sure) the levels that qualify for nationals/jr nationals (which is now being rolled into nationals) the best skaters will be well above the skills required for the tests.  There are some skaters who can pass tests but will never be truly competitive- so the test track gives them a place to participate.  That way they can work their way up the levels, and possibly even test through senior (if you look at the requirements for that test, which is by no means easy, vs what is required to be a successful elite skater- it seems way too easy!)

[isakswings]

I must not read the annoucements right or don't understand because everyone I read says no axels- single rotation jumps only for pre pre. also including no flying entry spins. See how confused I am? How can you compete with them when it says they are not allowed?

It must be your area then. I know around here both flying spins and axels are allowed in pre-pre. The flying spins were only recently allowed. Here, the description you described are the rules for non-test, with the exception of flying spins. I THINK flying spins are allowed in non-test around here and in the general area(neighboring states). Very interesting!

[isakswings]

okay I think i am close to getting it!! Me so smart. some skaters skate well balanced and some test track. it looks like my DD will be skating the well balanced track while the other girl skates test track.

That makes complete sense now. It really IS confusing! We tossed around the idea of having my daughter compete preliminary test track until her sal becomes more consistant but my daughter didn't like the idea of not competing with her axel or even trying a double or 2 in her program. There is absolutely nothing wrong with competing test track but in my daughter's case, she wants to stay on the well balanced track. She does not feel she will be challenged enough if she competes preliminary test track. For her to compete test track and feel challenged, she'd likely have to work on competing at the juvenile level where she would be allowed to jump an axel and do other elements not allowed in the lower test track levels.

Good luck to your daughter!

[Nate]

That makes complete sense now. It really IS confusing! We tossed around the idea of having my daughter compete preliminary test track until her sal becomes more consistant but my daughter didn't like the idea of not competing with her axel or even trying a double or 2 in her program. There is absolutely nothing wrong with competing test track but in my daughter's case, she wants to stay on the well balanced track. She does not feel she will be challenged enough if she competes preliminary test track. For her to compete test track and feel challenged, she'd likely have to work on competing at the juvenile level where she would be allowed to jump an axel and do other elements not allowed in the lower test track levels.

Good luck to your daughter!

I feel the same way about the adult track, which is why I'm contemplating going back to standard track very soon.  The restrictions are just too harsh.  There's no room to challenge yourself.

[techskater]

Depending on your age, you may not be allowed to compete standard track.  There was a long standing rule about the differential in age between the two oldest competitors in the group couldn't be larger than 10 years.  If you skate pre-pre, there's a good chance you as an adult are more than 10 years difference to the next kid down.

[Nate]

Competition doesn't really mean that much to me, esp at the lower levels.

[blue111moon]

Depending on your age, you may not be allowed to compete standard track.  There was a long standing rule about the differential in age between the two oldest competitors in the group couldn't be larger than 10 years.  If you skate pre-pre, there's a good chance you as an adult are more than 10 years difference to the next kid down.

That "rule" doesn't exist.  Maybe 30 years ago there was a rule that said that , in standard competitions, the oldest skater could not be more than 5 years older than the next oldest skater, but that was eliminated once Adult Competitions entered the US Rulebook.  As an adult I've competed again kids without issues (well, there was a mother who freaked out when I came in ahead of her child and she ranted that it wasn't fair because I'd been skating longer than she'd been alive and shouldn't have been up against her child who'd only been skating for three years;  mind you I only finished ahead of her child because it was Compulsory Moves and her child did the wrong ones, but....). 

None of the smaller non-quals I know of have a problem with adults skating in the standard track events if they want to.

[Schmeck]

Now, this was 5-6 years ago, but when we had adults wanting to compete standard track, they skated in the same level but a different flight, and were awarded medals separately. These were levels that were never qualifying, (below juvenile) and I think the most we ever had was 2 adults in one flight.  Most local comps get 20-30 skaters at the lowest levels, so it was easy to split everyone up by age. Lots of pre-teens and younger teens get into skating 'later' around here, so we have a nice range of ages.

[sarahspins]

The standard track levels that have age "limits" almost always have open events where any age can compete, whether you are one year over the limit or 30, it doesn't matter, the difference being that those simply aren't qualifying competitions.  They've always been grouped by "age" but that is always relative and depends on how many skaters enter. 

[techskater]

It was less than when the adult track was added ago that a friend of mine almost didn't get to compete (I want to say ~7 years ago) because she turned 25 after the cut off date for a local competition butat her level (Open Juvenile) the next oldest competitor was 16. They called all the kids' parents to ask if they were OK with her in the event...

[Kim to the Max]

I competed this year at a local competition as a warm up for Empire State Games at Juvenile Test Track and my competition was all of the 16 year olds that I know from this area They and their parents had no problems with it and thought it was awesome that I was out there.