Arch support of Jackson vs Riedells, + width

[sampaguita]

A week of deciding of which skate to buy, and still confused!

My pro shop had some Jackson Classique 5C, and I decided I'd buy it if it fit me (I'm supposed to be a Riedell 4.5M or a Jackson 5B by measurements). Although the length was right, it HURT really bad -- there was little arch support, and the boot was pushing on my foot too hard it was painful. Also, my feet could somehow rotate around the boot (the heel and the toe were fixed though).  The width thing might be solved by ordering a 5B, but I don't see how the arch problem can be solved. So I went home thinking that my foot might really be a Riedell foot because of the arch.

But when I fit my Riedell 133s at home, I found that my foot could also rotate around the boot, just like the Jacksons, and that there also wasn't a lot of arch support. I cannot tell how different it was from the Jackson. I found this really weird because the 133s had always been comfortable for me...I don't know if it just expanded in the past few weeks beyond what I can tolerate. The only different thing between the Classique and the 133 is that the 133 didn't hurt. When I first bought it (pre-heat molding), it didn't hurt as bad as the Classique. I remember the toes being squished, but it didn't feel like the entire boot was crushing my foot.

I don't know if the Classiques hurt simply because they are stiffer than the 133s, or because the arch support is *slightly* better with the Riedells for those with normal arches (I have a medium arch). I don't even know if the Riedell arch support is better! Bottomline is, I still don't know what to buy: the Riedell 255 or the Jackson Freestyle.

I was finally able to remove the insoles from my 133s (turns out I was actually pulling it the wrong way before). Here are pictures of my insoles on the current 133s. Thought it might help to determine possible problems.




And here are pictures of my foot arches:




Thanks in advance!

[Query]

I've changed my mind!

Those boots must be squeezing your toes together. Yuck! Jacksons might do marginally better there. But if you don't like the way the Jacksons fit - it's your feet, and what you feel should matter most...

The insoles, and therefore probably the boot, seem a bit thin everywhere, since we can't see anything but the front.

Also, it's hard to tell, but you may have relatively short toes. Generally speaking, boots bend the foot at where the maker assumes your arch is. That may not work well for you, because they may be trying to bend your mid-foot. Does it feel like your feet are bent by the foot bed shape where your feet feel comfortable bending? Try to bend your feet, to lift your heels off the ground, without shoes, and see where they want to bend.

In such case, as in most cases, you should size by your arch, not the length of the whole foot. You want the bend of the insole inside the boot to match where your foot bends best. If that leaves much space in front of your toes, that means you may want to get a slightly shorter than normal blade for the full boot length, and mount the blade a little farther back than usual, so the toe pick isn't so far ahead of your toes. Because the actual front of the boot doesn't affect toe pick use, only the size, shape and anatomy of your foot. Most boot technicians will be very hesitant to pick a blade length and mounting position other than the standard, but if they don't, you may have trouble using your toe pick. Experiment with blade placement to make you happy!

BTW, I hope that when you try boots on in the store, or use them, you kick your heels back, so the back of your heel touches the back of the boot. That's a big difference in fit. Probably not a big a deal for you - I'm not sure your foot is shaped in such a way that matters, because your foot doesn't appear to get much if any thinner just in front of the heel, but it is worth a try.

I'm not sure that fit explains the break down. Just comfort issues. It is possible you would be seen as a good candidate for (expensive) custom boots - but that doesn't seem to be what you want, nor do you feel you have a good enough fitter to do a good job. If you did, you wouldn't be asking us.

Umm, let me get back to you a bit later. I think a little arch support would solve several problems.

I don't know how to tell if you tied your boots too tight. Don't feel guilty. It's your money, so you have nothing to feel guilty about. Besides, it isn't unusual relatively low end boots to break down after a year or so - I'm not sure fit or lacing problems are needed to explain the breakdown.

Does anyone know any any expert boot fitters who work a lot with remote fittings, who could do something with your pictures? That would be the right way to go.

[drskater]

Does anyone know any any expert boot fitters who work a lot with remote fittings, who could do something with your pictures? That would be the right way to go.

Good suggestion Query!! Sampaguita, is it possible to make an impression of your feet (those foam things people use when ordering customs) and work with a reputable dealer via email or online? It may help to stem some of your anxiety.

[Query]

Here is the other thing I'm seeing. Your feet out a little lower to the floor than mine. My expert says there is no one arch height that is healthy for everyone. But we hear you saying that you feel a need for more arch support. I'm going to assume you know what you feel or what you need, and that your feet are too flat inside the boot. Most people who need arch support need it around mid-foot, on the inside side of the foot, but you presumably know what you feel you need.

You start out with relatively flat feet, that may be a little thin for your skates, perhaps because your feet might have been measured while you were sitting down, and had no weight on them. Then you balance on one foot, which flattens the feet out further, putting more strain on your arches, and pushing the foot out further, so the boots get a little tighter on the sides. Then you have fairly snug boots (originally), as you should, which presses down on the mid-foot, flattening them out further.  Then you lace it really, really tight - flattening them further. Outch!

You would probably be happier with more arch support, and a somewhat more normal lace tightness.

I'm not medically trained - just someone who had troubles with their feet. But what I'm talking about would be noticed by any shoe or boot salesman who has been on the job more than 5 - 10 minutes, by any dancer, by almost any coach, by almost anyone who ever deals with feet. If you think about it for even a few minutes, it should be obvious to you, because you use those feet yourself. 

Arch support may be the most common thing people correct for in feet. You've already taken the insoles out. Now turn them upside, and put some tape (or anything sticky, like adhesive foam) under the part of the insole where your feet need support. At a guess, you need a bunch of layers of tape. I like athletic tape (e.g., "coach tape", or even first aid tape), because it doesn't wear out very fast, and because it is designed to be safe near skin, but any tape will do. (Duct tape sticks very well, but the adhesive wears partly off in a few weeks, so it needs to be redone.) Remember that turning an insole over reverses left and right (so if the left side of your foot needs support, apply the tape along the right side of the inverted insole)! Then put the insole back in your boots. You should feel an immediate relief.

The extra stuff underneath the insole will also tighten your boots, so maybe you can still use them - though they look too broken down to provide much sideways support.

If you genuinely feel you can't do this yourself, virtually anyone who deals with feet, perhaps including your coach, can do it.

This won't completely fix the fact that the boot is too skinny up front for your toes. In your place, I would choose Jacksons or Harlicks. But if Jacksons are less comfy, it's your decision.

BTW, there are many mail-order and Internet based people who sell skates, and who would claim they could help you. I'm just not sure how to find one who knows what they are doing - i.e., who has spent the necessary 5 - 10 minutes pondering this type of problem. That's why it would be nice if someone who knows of one would step forward and mention their name.

I honestly don't know how someone who makes a living fitting skates could not have recognized this when they sold them to you. But I've talked to a lot of people who had such basic problems, after buying from nominally professional skate salesmen, so it must be possible.

[sarahspins]

but I don't see how the arch problem can be solved.

I have the same issue with every boot I've ever worn except my customs (which had custom insoles), and with my Jacksons I solved it with these (the sit a little forward of the arch support in the insole, and didn't quite lay flat at first, but after a few times they relax and fit better): http://www.amazon.com/Pedag-Adhesive-Support-Leather-Medium/dp/B001E6OS9S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330205166&sr=8-1

I have wedges under my heels to correct pronation too, but that's a more specific issue than just adding more arch support.. you can always add, it's taking away that is trickier

For me, personally, if I can *feel* any empty space under my arch in my skates I have to do something about it or my feet will cramp up and hurt.

Looking at your insoles, your Riedells are probably too big (in length) which may be why they never hurt you in the beginning.  New boots should be pretty close to uncomfortably tight... they shouldn't be painful, but they need to fit close.  If you have an issue like the arches that is relatively easy to fix.

[sampaguita]

Thank you for everyone's comments! I appreciate you taking the time to help me with this. Where I live right now, there are no expert fitters. The pro shop here wants to sell me what they have in stock, and they don't have my (supposed) size, so I can't really compare. Shipping from the US is also very expensive, and to-and-from shipping could easily take $120.

Custom boots would definitely solve the problem, except that I can't afford those.    Jacksons and Riedells are the only ones I could afford.

Query: My feet have a medium arch, near the high side. I tried the wet test on my feet to test my arch. A little less than half of my arch makes an imprint on the paper. What I feel when using both the Riedell and the Jackson is that a significant portion of my arch does not touch the footbed. When I put pressure on my feet (when standing), I am conscious of where the arch is hanging over the boot, not touching anything. It's been a problem with many of my street shoes, but of course with street shoes you rarely stand on one foot.

I'll try your suggestion, sarahspins. We don't have Pedaq here, but do you think Scholl's arch support will do well?

Also, the pressure from the Classique is really weird. It's coming from sideways -- it felt like the boot was crushing my foot, although technically speaking, my feet was of the right length inside and even could rotate a little bit...is it the stiffness, or is there something else that's causing the pain? I couldn't imagine skating in those skates without heat molding.

[Sk8Dreams]

I think the Classique is too low end for you.  From your skating videos I think you should go up to the Freestyle, if you get a Jackson boot.  You are going to break down the Classiques way too soon.

[sampaguita]

@Sk8Dreams: My choice was really between Freestyle and the 255, but my pro shop doesn't stock Freestyle, so I fit the Classique anyway since I'm assuming that they have the same sizing. I also assumed that they would feel the same way because they have the same stiffness rating. Was I wrong? Do they also have a difference in fit? I thought that they were only different in terms of the sole.

[Query]

So exactly what is it that you feel on the arch?

"Support" means you want the arch area to be pushed up from beneath, which is what I assumed, regardless of whether your arch is high or low relative to a specific test. In other words, that something is uncomfortable or painful because something feels unsupported, because of something that is happening inside the foot. You say you are conscious of the empty space. In other words, decide whether you would you feel more comfortable with support from beneath in that area, and don't worry about how high your arch is relative to someone else.

Or do you want the foot pushed down to the insole? I.E., are your feet uncomfortable even when not supporting weight, again because of something inside the foot that is uncomfortable in that position?

Pushing part of the foot down is a little harder - you can stick a little moleskin on the part of the boot that needs to be bulkier to push it down. Of course, that would make the foot wider, and be squeezed more. The moleskin eventually wears off, and you have keep replacing it. I haven't found anything that I consider skin-safe that sticks better, though some people use industrial strength glues like Barge Cement.

I don't see that the boot is too long. The front of the boot has no effect on skating, because that part of the boot never touches the ice. (E.g., if you keep scraping the toe.) Only the blade, and it's position, matters. Though too much length can obviously effect things if you do close footwork (what the judges call "neat feet").

The boot looks too thin, because I can't see the insole - or does it get wider as you go up fast enough that you don't feel that? If the Jacksons squeeze you, and you can't buy Jacksons in a wider width, I guess it is the wrong brand for you.

BTW, you don't need to try on the exact model you want - most of the brands make most of the models with the same sizing, as long as you choose the same length and width - if you aren't sure you could call the boot makers with questions. If you use VOIP like Skype, long distance calls can be fairly cheap, and factory experts can be very helpful.

Shipping from the U.S. is sure expensive for you. Does your shop stock any boots made geographically closer to you that you could try on? I honestly don't get why North America has become the preferred source of skates.

I get that North America is too far for you to travel to, to find an expert. I forget or never knew where you live. Is there no other place that you could cheaply fly to, for a good expert? If you are uncomfortable, it might be worth it in the end. We all have our individual experiences, and will read your problems into them, perhaps incorrectly.

I wonder if you were to show the pictures to Riedell (over the Internet), whether they might make helpful suggestions. The factory master boot maker might love to share his expertise, if you say nice things. (The cheaper boots are probably made in China, but I'm not sure you can talk to their master.) I think I was told that he often does fits for people who come in to the U.S. factory, so he might choose to make himself accessible if you call. I think they have one other person who does factory fits too (the sharpener), who was presumably trained in fitting Riedells by the master. Something similar happens at most of the major boot makers, so you can talk to them too. Those people are the real experts about fitting their brand of boots, and if you can get them to help you over the phone or over the Internet, that might be a substitute for traveling. Or they might recommend an expert within reasonable flying distance.

Or you could just order, and hope.

[sarahspins]

Anything you can find for an arch support is probably fine... I like the pedag ones because they seem to be the right shape/height for me, but everyone is different.  I only linked them as a suggestion because it's what I use with the original jackson insoles - you can find something similar that works for you (and I've tried others, some were too high, too low, too big, too small, etc, but everything I tried actually went into the skates fine.

I'm not sure you can heat mold the Classique... Jackson only lists the Freestyle and up as being heat moldable.

[aussieskater]

I'm not sure you can heat mold the Classique... Jackson only lists the Freestyle and up as being heat moldable.

I think their new boot Elle is also heat moldable - Elle's stiffness (35) is between the Artiste (25) and Classique/Freestyle (45), but styled like the Freestyle with the leather sole.

[sampaguita]

"Support" means you want the arch area to be pushed up from beneath, which is what I assumed, regardless of whether your arch is high or low relative to a specific test. In other words, that something is uncomfortable or painful because something feels unsupported, because of something that is happening inside the foot. You say you are conscious of the empty space. In other words, decide whether you would you feel more comfortable with support from beneath in that area, and don't worry about how high your arch is relative to someone else.
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The boot looks too thin, because I can't see the insole - or does it get wider as you go up fast enough that you don't feel that? If the Jacksons squeeze you, and you can't buy Jacksons in a wider width, I guess it is the wrong brand for you.

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I wonder if you were to show the pictures to Riedell (over the Internet), whether they might make helpful suggestions. The factory master boot maker might love to share his expertise, if you say nice things. (The cheaper boots are probably made in China, but I'm not sure you can talk to their master.)

I want something to be below the arch, so that my entire foot is on something. Empty space underneath the foot hurts. I think I can buy Scholl's arch support here, I'll try that on my 133s. If that doesn't work, I'll order some Superfeet that was earlier suggested.

I don't really feet the Riedell as too thin...and neither is the Jackson. In fact, fit-wise, they seem to be the same! What puzzled me was that the Jackson hurt when I wore them, despite the fact that my foot can still rotate somewhat around the boot. Dealer tells me it's because the boot was stiffer than the 133s which I was used to. I know that the Classiques are not heat moldable, and I just CAN'T imagine skating on those.

Thanks for the info about the Riedell factory. I'll send them (and Jackson too) my pictures and they might have helpful suggestions. I had always assumed that the factory is too busy for ordinary buyers.

As for North America being the preferred source.....I live somewhere in Asia, where there aren't many ice rinks. We do have an official Riedell dealer here -- that's the pro shop I'm talking about -- but they don't stock a lot of boots, don't stock a lot of sizes. If I order from them, it takes a looong time to arrive, and they say if I order the wrong size, I have to pay for it anyway. I just think that for the extra price, there's just no extra value to buying locally if they don't have the boot that I want in stock. (Of course if they have it in-stock, that's a different thing altogether.) Buying from the US is the most economical option, shipping included -- assuming there is no reshipping.

aussieskater: Didn't know about the Elle -- online seller recommended the Freestyle to me. Is it just as stiff as the 133, or stiffer?

[aussieskater]

aussieskater: Didn't know about the Elle -- online seller recommended the Freestyle to me. Is it just as stiff as the 133, or stiffer?

Sorry sampaguita I have no idea.  I only know about the existence of the Elle because a poster in another thread talked about it.  Maybe someone else can chime in for you?

[Query]

You might send comments to Riedell along with the pictures, and talk on the phone. I misread the pictures, because I saw the bottom of the socks touching. I'm not sure whether even an expert can read the amount of pressure from a picture, especially if they only see socks. And they need to know that you feel a need for support, and where - because it doesn't really matter how flat or high your feet are - it matters what support you need to be comfortable and healthy.

My own problem was also that one side of the bottom of my feet were largely unsupported. To maintain shape and stay on the desired edges, I was using my muscles, which would become very sore over the course of a skating session. The fitter I used at the time didn't think muscles could do that, so he claimed nothing could be done, and that his custom fit had been perfect.

What I needed was a "wedge" - i.e., for the footbed to be tilted from side to side, easily done with a few strips of tape underneath the insole. It's conceivable that is what you too, rather than just more support under the medial longitudinal arch.

Tape or equivalent is an almost complete substitute for a generic or custom orthotic, unless you have a medical issue that requires something fancy. The advantage of tape is that you can, in a few minutes, try out different amounts of support in different places, until you are happy.

For that matter, if you take one of the commercial generic orthotics that provided a little too much support, you could try putting it under the insole, to see whether that provided a little less support. Or you could sand it down a bit. Or add a little tape to one that provides too little support.

Superfeet and similar products mold to equalize pressure in the configuration in which they are molded. If your feet actually need unequal pressure in different places to be happy, Superfeet won't do that. They are also stiff enough to rock around if you cut them too small, or gradually push out and widen leather boots if you cut them large enough to stick in place. I tried, and eventually gave up on Superfeet. But maybe I'm pickier.

If your feet move around from side to side, or in the heel, of your new boots, my web page has some stuff on that.

I hope you are happy with your new boots. I would never go with a boot that hurt me either. I guess you have Riedell brand feet.

[sampaguita]

Dear Query,

Thanks for helping me out with this. I have decided on risking it with the Freestyle 5C. I figured that if my Riedell turned out not to have a lot of arch support and it didn't bother me too much, then maybe the Jackson Freestyle would do just as well, if I have them heat molded. If the Jacksons work for me, then that's good because they are cheaper than Riedell. If they don't...well, I hope I could just resell them for a good price.

[sarahspins]

That sounds like a good plan - don't be afraid to try to fill in the space where you need more arch support - it really makes a HUGE difference

[sampaguita]

Thanks for all the suggestions you gave, sarahspins! I'll try getting some Dr. Scholl's to help me with the arch. I'll also try the tape method Query suggested.

[Query]

Wait! I thought you said you found the Jacksons painful.

It's your feet, not mine. They should know what is best for them.

Cheaper isn't always better.

[sampaguita]

@Query: Looking back at my fitting experience, I find the results to be weird. Fit-wise, the Jackson turns out to be very similar to my Riedells. The length of the boot was okay (toes and heel were secure, and a 4.5 will definitely NOT work for me), and the boot was wide enough to accommodate a very slight movement of the foot when I lift my foot off the floor and intentionally try to rotate my foot around the boot. My current Riedells also have that very slight wobble (?) -- dunno if it was there from the start, or if it was there because it slightly expanded over time. Kind of off-topic: are skates SUPPOSED to accommodate that slight movement when you force it to do so?

Since the pressure on the foot was on all sides, perhaps it's just the stiffness of the boot? The one I tried on was the Classique, which is stiffer than the 133s. There's no way I would wear the Classiques, since they are unskatable in a new and unbaked state -- way too stiff for me, in my opinion. I'm thinking that maybe heat molding can help...do you think so?

[Query]

Heat molding should help - but I would stay away from anything uncomfortable.

What I looked at when saying Jacksons might work better is that the insole looked like the Riedell was squeezing your toes. If instead the Jackson is more uncomfortable, it's a lot of money to waste on something unproven. Riedell is the minor discomfort you know about, Jackson is an unknown quantity for you, they might be great, but might be a major problem. In your place I would still call Riedell for advice, but if you can't find a good expert you trust locally, and you can't afford customs or to travel, Riedell seems the safest bet, unless Riedell says otherwise. I would trust their experts to be both honest and a lot more knowledgeable than me.

I think the new fit is what you go by, because by the time it has broken down, shape and size have changed. Plus, if your new boots are a little large somewhere, that is a lot easier to fix than something that hurts a lot because it is too small somewhere. The tools you need to take up space are much cheaper than the tools needed to do a major stretch of a moderately high level boot.

[sampaguita]

Thanks Query! I haven't ordered the boots yet. Given your advice, I'll think more about it.

I've already contacted Riedell -- they recommended that I go with no more than a 4.5 B, since I have an A-width heel. Will also contact Jacksons to ask their honest opinion.

[Query]

Anyway, don't pay attention to us. We aren't there, and don't have the level of training the Riedell and Jackson reps have. I started to get worried you would order something on my advice, and blame me for making a mistake. Blame them instead.

But I'd love to hear what those real experts say, and how things come out.

[Willowway]

As someone said above and it's just good sense - if the boots don't feel comfortable off the ice before you're moving in them, you may be in real trouble when you get on the ice. Yes, they have to be broken in but stiffness is stiffness and usually doesn't cause real pain - there's a difference. Getting the most snug (with room for some toe wiggle) and comfortable boot you can find makes sense - then you can add insoles, etc. to make them even better.

[sampaguita]

Query, don't worry, I won't be blaming you if the boots turn out to be ill-fitting.   Thanks for all the advice. Will let you know once the  boots (whatever I decide on) have arrived.

Willowway: Thanks for the advice. That just bolsters my conviction that if I do order Jacksons, I would go for a 5C not for a 5B -- unless the Jackson rep says otherwise.