New boot - budget dilemma

[sampaguita]

Okay...I think my boots need replacement really soon. When I was doing 3-turns, it felt like my ankle was not well-supported, and I had to retie my laces a number of times. Here are pictures of my current Riedell 133:

http://s1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/skatinganalysis/

I've been skating for a little more than a year. The crease in the boots started to appear maybe 3 months after I bought it, and it just got larger with time.

Problem is, I don't live in the US (where skates are relatively cheaper). Our pro shop, which charges way too much (in my opinion). They sell Riedell 910 LS boots for almost $530, when the MSRP is just $330!!!! I would have ordered the boots online (would save me $130, shipping included), but I don't know if my current size is correct, and I would feel bad if I go the pro shop and ask them to make a measurement, then not buy from them.

Here's what I think are my current options:
1. Get another 133, locally
2. Buy a 910 LS boot, locally, with my old Quest Onyx Blade
3. Buy a 910 LS boot, online, with my old Quest Onyx Blade

I am in Delta level, and cannot imagine myself jumping (spinning...um, maybe). I still don't have my 3-turns perfected, so I think I will definitely stay for a while in Delta, and am no hurry to go to FS1.

I have some doubts, though, and I would really appreciate any help:
1. My left foot is between 8 7/8 and 9, and my right foot only between 8 6/8 and 8 7/8.So that means that my left foot is technically speaking 4.5 M, while my right foot is 4W. My previous fitter put me in 4.5 M. No problem at first, but one year later, the right foot seems to be looser than the left. Will shifting to 4W solve my problem? Or will it just create a new one?

2. Are Jacksons going to be a better option for feet like mine?

3. Is the 910 going to be too much for Delta level? (The price difference between the two boots is very significant for me, and I just want to make sure that I make the right decision).

4. Strangely enough, the pro shop staff here told me that 910 LS are not heat moldable because they have PVC soles -- same with the 133, but then I had my 133 heat molded, and the PVC did not melt. Should I force the pro shop to heat mold the 910 at my own risk (assuming I decide to go with the 910)?

Thanks a lot in advance!

[Query]

First off, all skates eventually break down if you use them enough. I was originally told otherwise, but mine eventually did in spite of everything I could do to alter the fit to match. (Actually, since I'm not jumping right now, I've decided I like slightly broken down boots, though I had to do things so my toes aren't impinged upon.) You may not have a fit problem.

How tightly do you lace your boots? On a scale of 1 to 10, where

1   is loose enough that you sometimes felt motion between your foot and the boots below the ankle bones, when they were newer. That's the way most shoes should be fit, though not to the point blisters form, but skates are different, because the forces and motions inside the boot are larger. Internal motion from loose lacing creates break downs just as easily as from boots that are too big.

10 is as tight as you could stand, without pain, foot problems, or numbing? (If skates fit well, you don't need to go quite this tight, especially if you don't feel the need for that much support, but if the fit is poor, it may be a good idea - though squeezing or jamming the toes is probably bad for most people, and can lead to bunions.

Are there places where the boots feel looser than others when you use them? In particular, are they loose anywhere near the breakdown creases? If so, you could have altered the boots with tape, foam and/or moleskin (or equivalent), to delay the problem, and could do so on your next boots.

This isn't a completely valid, because feet and boots are 3 dimensional, but could you remove the insoles, and show us pictures of how your feet (in the socks you use if you use them) fit on top of the insoles? We need to see how the feet fit the insoles on all sides without you changing your foot position on the insoles, so you may need someone else to take the pictures if you aren't flexible.

If you don't feel comfortable posting pictures of your feet, please don't. If you don't wear socks, maybe you would be more comfortable posting pictures in thin socks or stockings.

The insoles may be lightly glued - i.e., the insole will peel off if you pull hard enough. But don't pull so hard that your insoles rip!

[Sk8tmum]

The 910 LS does not have a PVC sole, in fact it's sold as a boot only or boot/blade combo. Are you sure that they are looking at the right boot? And, all Riedell boots are heatmoldable ... so the shop shouldn't have any worries. My worry is that they don't seem to know much about the boot !

You can also "upscale" your blade to the Eclipse blade; you don't need to get the Onyx blade. It's an option with the 2012 line.

If you need different sizes, Riedell will accomodate you with differently-sized boots - I think it's $35 or something, but, I'd have to check the fee, adn it may be different in different parts of the world.

[sampaguita]

Sk8tmum: I don't plan to buy a blade, since that would mean extra cash outflow, so if I can keep the Onyx blade that would be great. You're right: am worried too about the pro shop, although I don't have any choice since they're the only one around in my area.

How tightly do you lace your boots? On a scale of 1 to 10, where

1   is loose enough that you sometimes felt motion between your foot and the boots below the ankle bones, when they were newer. That's the way most shoes should be fit, though not to the point blisters form, but skates are different, because the forces and motions inside the boot are larger. Internal motion from loose lacing creates break downs just as easily as from boots that are too big.

10 is as tight as you could stand, without pain, foot problems, or numbing? (If skates fit well, you don't need to go quite this tight, especially if you don't feel the need for that much support, but if the fit is poor, it may be a good idea - though squeezing or jamming the toes is probably bad for most people, and can lead to bunions.

Are there places where the boots feel looser than others when you use them? In particular, are they loose anywhere near the breakdown creases? If so, you could have altered the boots with tape, foam and/or moleskin (or equivalent), to delay the problem, and could do so on your next boots.

When my skates were heat-molded, they were tied really really tight. I guess that's why I always tied my boots that way, because it was the way the skates were heat-molded to my feet. I noticed that the more I tried to bend my knee, the more creases would form. For a long time, I was very proud of the creases because I thought that they meant my knee bend was getting deeper!

About a year later, I read in "Kids' book of figure skating" by Rikki Samuels that when you tie your boots, you have to tie the lower and middle part with your foot flexed, then tie the ankle part with your foot flat and your knees bent, to simulate the actual knee bend. I have since tied my boots this way (but they already had deep creases then).

The right knee had always seemed looser than the left, due to the difference in foot length. I never used to mind, since I would just tie the right boot tighter than the left, but the problem has been exacerbated recently.

[hopskipjump]

For that much of a price difference, I would travel to get boots at the normal price with a professional fitting.  It won't be convenient, but it could really make a difference in fit.  Dd had the 910ls with the onyx blade and was happy enough.  The back notch was a little deep for what she is working on so she switched to the 435ts.

[sampaguita]

For that much of a price difference, I would travel to get boots at the normal price with a professional fitting. 

Unfortunately, my plane fare to where I got my first boots would be much, much more expensive than the 910LS boots and blades combined. 

What about the low back of the 910 LS? Did the low back cause less ankle support? What moves did she have problems with?

[Query]

Without seeing your feet, on the insoles, it is hard to say, but if you really started seeing a crease shortly after buying the boots, and you were tying as tight as you say, that suggests the 133's never were stiff enough for you. I'd still like to see the pictures I suggested, in part to try to figure out whether you would be better off in another brand, but a reasonable person would say you might need something stiffer. The stiffer boot won't be comfortable, but it will provide the support you say you need.

With a stiffer, boot, your ankle bones need to slide forward and back as your ankles point and flex, so don't tie it so tight near where these broke down that the boots are forced to flex with it. (Forcing a relatively stiff boot to bend can force a break down too.) You'll probably want some sort of padding to absorb the slide, so you don't get blisters, e.g., a couple layers of sports wrap, or something with gel in it.

You might consider not getting flex notches. It looks like that's where the breakdowns started.

[isakswings]

Okay...I think my boots need replacement really soon. When I was doing 3-turns, it felt like my ankle was not well-supported, and I had to retie my laces a number of times. Here are pictures of my current Riedell 133:

http://s1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/skatinganalysis/

I've been skating for a little more than a year. The crease in the boots started to appear maybe 3 months after I bought it, and it just got larger with time.

Problem is, I don't live in the US (where skates are relatively cheaper). Our pro shop, which charges way too much (in my opinion). They sell Riedell 910 LS boots for almost $530, when the MSRP is just $330!!!! I would have ordered the boots online (would save me $130, shipping included), but I don't know if my current size is correct, and I would feel bad if I go the pro shop and ask them to make a measurement, then not buy from them.

Here's what I think are my current options:
1. Get another 133, locally
2. Buy a 910 LS boot, locally, with my old Quest Onyx Blade
3. Buy a 910 LS boot, online, with my old Quest Onyx Blade

I am in Delta level, and cannot imagine myself jumping (spinning...um, maybe). I still don't have my 3-turns perfected, so I think I will definitely stay for a while in Delta, and am no hurry to go to FS1.

I have some doubts, though, and I would really appreciate any help:
1. My left foot is between 8 7/8 and 9, and my right foot only between 8 6/8 and 8 7/8.So that means that my left foot is technically speaking 4.5 M, while my right foot is 4W. My previous fitter put me in 4.5 M. No problem at first, but one year later, the right foot seems to be looser than the left. Will shifting to 4W solve my problem? Or will it just create a new one?

2. Are Jacksons going to be a better option for feet like mine?

3. Is the 910 going to be too much for Delta level? (The price difference between the two boots is very significant for me, and I just want to make sure that I make the right decision).

4. Strangely enough, the pro shop staff here told me that 910 LS are not heat moldable because they have PVC soles -- same with the 133, but then I had my 133 heat molded, and the PVC did not melt. Should I force the pro shop to heat mold the 910 at my own risk (assuming I decide to go with the 910)?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Are you able to find Jackson boots locally? If so, I would go try a pair on. A lot of skaters at my daughter's rink(adults and kids) are in this boot. My daughter is on her 2nd pair of Freestyle boots. She has had the 2nd pair for a year and has mild creasing. My daughter weighs about 100 pounds and  is a preliminary skater who has an axel and is working on doubles and advanced spins and foot work. Because these boots have held up so well, we plan to keep her in the same model once it is time to get new boots(probably in November). I really cannot say enough good things about the Jackson Freestyle boot. My own skates(3 year old Riedell Gold Medallion boots) are slightly small on one foot. If I ever replace them, I will replace them with Jackson Freestyle boots. It really does sound like your current boots were never stiff enough. Good luck and I hope you find something that doesn't cause your wallet too much pain!

[sampaguita]

Thanks isakswings and Query!

Without seeing your feet, on the insoles, it is hard to say, but if you really started seeing a crease shortly after buying the boots, and you were tying as tight as you say, that suggests the 133's never were stiff enough for you. I'd still like to see the pictures I suggested, in part to try to figure out whether you would be better off in another brand, but a reasonable person would say you might need something stiffer. The stiffer boot won't be comfortable, but it will provide the support you say you need.

Sorry Query, but the insoles are glued.     I can't take them out without me damaging the insole.

With a stiffer, boot, your ankle bones need to slide forward and back as your ankles point and flex, so don't tie it so tight near where these broke down that the boots are forced to flex with it. (Forcing a relatively stiff boot to bend can force a break down too.) You'll probably want some sort of padding to absorb the slide, so you don't get blisters, e.g., a couple layers of sports wrap, or something with gel in it.

You might consider not getting flex notches. It looks like that's where the breakdowns started.

Geez, I had always tied my boots very very tight in the ankle area. I remember noticing that when I tried to do deep knee bends the lace and the tongue would force the boots to bend forward, near the flex notch. All the while I thought that's what flex notches were for! So is the culprit the flex notch, or is it the tight lacing near the flex notch?

[hopskipjump]

There was less ankle support.  After she adjusted to her new boots, she had much better spins and finally a consistent axel.  She has a very narrow heel and did get split width with her new skates.

One thing to note - she goes through a new pair of skates every year but her LS skates were totally beat up at the end of that year.  Sure probably from learning the axel, but in her new skates - 6 months later they look new - and that is working on her doubles!

[chowskates]

I've heard the LS series seems to break down quicker... perhaps there's got to be compromise for the light weight?

I recently brought in the 255TS (available as a set or as boot-only) for a couple of skaters, and it does look pretty good. It is slightly less costly than the 910LS. For the Delta level it would do well. You might want to consider that too.

By the way, the 910 & 255 are *not* PVC soles!

[sarahspins]

So is the culprit the flex notch, or is it the tight lacing near the flex notch?

Neither, it's the lack of stiffness.  Skate in a boot that isn't supportive enough and you'll get this kind of breakdown.  Even boots with the correct fit and support won't last forever - they break down simply because that's the nature of leather.  The flex notch is really there to provide an assist for bending the ankle forward where the crease in a "broken in" boot naturally forms, so it gives you greater flexibility without having to wait for that break in to occur, but it could make it easier to break down a boot that isn't stiff enough.  Looking at your boots, I think odds are good that the boots simply weren't supportive enough.  Wether that is because they were not the right size, not the right stiffness, or have simply broken down over time as all boots eventually do isn't really that critical as realizing that you need a stiffer boot now than when you bought the 133's.

If you felt you had to lace your ankle super tight or you felt like your heel would slip, then that's a good indication you need a narrower heel, and those creases would be related to the "too wide" issue mentioned before (maybe in another thread?).  If you had to lace that tight from the beginning for support, then again, your boots simply were not stiff enough when you got them.  If you need a split width *and* a split size that is something that your pro shop should be able to accommodate since it is available from riedell.

As far as flex notches vs no flex notches, I think it's a personal thing.  I really like the notches, but others don't. 

[hopskipjump]

By the way, the 910 & 255 are *not* PVC soles!

True!  I paid for waterproofing! 

[sampaguita]

Thanks a lot for everyone's inputs! It was much help to me, and I really appreciate it.   

I've limited my boot choices to 255 TS, 910 LS, and Jackson Freestyle. I'm leaning more towards the 255, but as suggested, I'll try to fit a Jackson boot first.

[Sk8tmum]

One thing to note - she goes through a new pair of skates every year but her LS skates were totally beat up at the end of that year.  Sure probably from learning the axel, but in her new skates - 6 months later they look new - and that is working on her doubles!

We found that as the jump technique improved, the skates lasted longer ... beginning "jumps", esp the axel it seems, often cause cuts and nicks in the boots from the blades due to feet not being in the right position, which hacks them up, and poor landing technique put more of a strain on the boots than when solid, clean landings were being executed ... it was a nice benefit.

[hopskipjump]

That is good news.  But also the skate material feels totally different.  A nick in the old ones often went very deep -revealing the dark grey/black.  A nick in the new skates is much less damage.  The material is just much thicker and sturdier.

[Query]

All skates bend some, even super-stiff high level freestyle boots ones. I honestly don't understand how anyone has the strength to bend them, but they do.

For the majority of people, tight lacing is a good idea. When you see beginners who can't balance, most are either in boots that were too big, or that weren't laced tight enough. You have to over-tighten a lot to damage most boots that way, and low level boots are designed to bend to conform to your feet as they move, just like most tennis shoes. Based on Riedell's descriptions, the 133 may be close to that range of stiffness, though I'm not certain. I don't think the 910s are, but you still want reasonably tight lacing, much tighter than you need in a reasonable shoe. But not necessarily as tight as you would use for a heat mold.

Flex notches are just a way of making boots less stiff. The intention is to selectively create flexibility in the flex/point dimension, while keeping some of the stiffness against sideways ankle bend and inward and outward rotation. My Klings were stiff enough to have been virtually unusable as ice dance boots without flex notches. If the 910s prove way too stiff for you, you can cut flex notches. (Ideally, the leather should then be stitched, so the leather doesn't come apart, something some shoe and boot repair shops can do - not just good skate shops.)

Since we can't see you on the insoles: If your toes feel like they are squeezed together, and/or your heel can shift from side to side, or if when you look at your feet, your toes are substantially wider than your heels, you may be better off in a Jackson or Harlick boot than in a Riedell.

[sampaguita]

Since we can't see you on the insoles: If your toes feel like they are squeezed together, and/or your heel can shift from side to side, or if when you look at your feet, your toes are substantially wider than your heels, you may be better off in a Jackson or Harlick boot than in a Riedell.

When the 133s were new, my feet couldn't move inside-I honestly felt they were customs haha. Recently though I could feel my heel moving, so I would retie often until my feel were numb.

I really feel guilty about the way I tied my laces when they were new...I used to tie them as tight as they were when they got heat molded. That probably caused the premature breakdown (and premature cash outflow   ).

As for my toes being wider than my heels, they are -- but I'm not sure how "substantial" substantial is. Would a tracing of my foot and corresponding measurements help? Thanks!