Rank the Turns

[nicklaszlo]

How would you rank the different types of turns by difficulty?  What order do you think they should be learned in?

[jjane45]

I would rank brackets way over all three turns. Brackets require much better edge control and are easily cheated into three turns. Choctaws appear at the same time as brackets in the ISI structure, to me they are somewhat easier than brackets. Don't know much about rockers and counters, figure-esque edge control required again IMO.

[nicklaszlo]

Choctaws appear at the same time as brackets in the ISI structure

Yet at our rink, all the coaches expect you to do the choctaw in the power 3-turn pattern in the Greek letter levels.

[jjane45]

Power 3 (choctaw) is kind of doable, alternating 3 (choctaw) gave me a really hard time. There are two kinds of choctaws in FS5 steps, for me the second one is way harder than the first. In conclusion, not all choctaws are created equal?

[sarahspins]

Isn't the second one in the ISI 5 footwork a closed choctaw?  Anything closed is always harder IMO

Power 3's use choctaws.. that's the step from backwards to forwards.  Forward spins also use them from the back XO entrance... so a skater has usually been "introduced" to the choctaw before they understand that it is an actual turn.

Personally... I think inside mohawks are easiest (forwards or backwards), then forward 3's, then outside mohawks, then choctaws, then back 3's, then brackets, then rockers and counters are about the same.

I agree that brackets are easily cheated into 3's by some skaters, but that really only happens when they aren't done with enough speed or a deep enough edge (I mean on close to a flat).  At speed it's impossible to really "cheat" a bracket if the edge going into it is good.

I've been working on rockers and counters lately as my coach has been having me work on forward to backwards and forward again power pulls - no change of foot, all I'm allowed is a turn and it's much easier to do them with a rocker or a counter. 

[nicklaszlo]

forward to backwards and forward again power pulls - no change of foot, all I'm allowed is a turn and it's much easier to do them with a rocker or a counter. 

Those are awesome, particularly when done as a mirrored step sequence.  I am really liking that it is showing up in a lot of junior short dances this year.

[Sk8Dreams]

Back choctaws are no big deal, it's the forward ones that are hard, particularly if you have closed hips.  I wouldn't call the turn in the F alternating three pattern a choctaw, as there's really a little 1/4 flip of the foot before stepping forward, so you're not on an edge.

[Skittl1321]

I don't really consider "step forward" to be a choctaw...


I would say turns should be learned as:
Forward 3-turns
Inside Mohawks
Back 3-turns
Brackets
Outside Mohawks
Counters/Rockers
Choctaws


That said, in terms of what I think is easy: choctaws are NOT!  Any turn  that goes CW I like, though some of the counters/rockers and BI3s are harder than other CW turns.  Any turn that goes CCW I hate.  I have a better counter/rocker/bracket than I do a RFI3.

For me, it has nothing to do with the leg turning, the edge I'm on, it is all about the rotation.
The exception to this rule is back outside 3s- I love both of those equally, though they aren't as good as my forward CW 3s. 

[jjane45]

Power 3 (choctaw) is kind of doable, alternating 3 (choctaw) gave me a really hard time.

I wouldn't call the turn in the F alternating three pattern a choctaw, as there's really a little 1/4 flip of the foot before stepping forward, so you're not on an edge.

I don't really consider "step forward" to be a choctaw...

I am confused... Help please

[Skittl1321]

By definition a choctaw is a turn that changes foot, edge, and direction.  (Mohawks on the other hand change foot and direction but keep the same edge).

So if you are winding up for a spin (I'm CW), you are holding a left back inside edge, and you step forward to a right forward outside edge.  By defintion, this is a choctaw.

But as far as I'm concerned, that is "step forward".  The choctaws that go from forward to back are HARD.  HARD.  Really hard. (IMO, but it's like a more difficult mohawk, and I hate those, so it is no wonder I dislike choctaws.  I can do a few different counters and rockers, I can't do any choctaws that aren't "step forwards") It doesn't even seem like the movement is related at all, that's why I don't think step forward "counts" as a choctaw.

Here is a nice choctaw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qAWM7yGYE&feature=related

[Sk8Dreams]

A lot of skaters do refer to B choctaws & mohawks as "step forwards", but by definition they really are choctaws and mohawks,
whereas I don't regard what's in that video as choctaws.  There are no edges.  The skater is really on the flat of the blade, that is, on both edges at once.  You can see that quite clearly in the last few turns.  The USFS is starting to clean up this kind of thing, which is why they removed the "bracket-three-bracket" move from Novice MIF.  The brackets were really one foot turns on flats (as we called them in roller skating.) If you want to see a very clear example, take a look at the FI choctaw in the Blues.  Here's Anissina & Peizerat skating it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQTcnTxoWEI

[AgnesNitt]

When I was still in ISI there was a woman in my Gamma class that couldn't do Forward 3's, but she could do brackets. It was weird. Coaches would just stare at her in slack jawed amazement.

[Harleyboy]

Because I still can't do acceptable inside 3s, Im going to say that they are the hardest turn.  I'll worry about the fancy stuff later.

What I really joined this thread to say was this:
The clip of Anissina & Peizerant was fantastic.. Thanks  Sk8Dreams..Wow, just wow!

[Sk8Dreams]

The clip of Anissina & Peizerant was fantastic.. Thanks  Sk8Dreams..Wow, just wow!

Glad you liked it.  It cost me about half an hour, because I got sucked into watching more skating on youtube.  It's amazing what you can find.