Nice jumps/spins/turns, but poor stroking and crossovers

[sampaguita]

How common is this in the child/adult skating world?

[Clarice]

I haven't really seen that.  A skater can't really do the tricks well if they have poor basics.  Skaters I've seen with poor stroking and edges also have poor quality jumps and spins.  When they've gone back to work on their basic skating skills, the tricks have also improved.

[nicklaszlo]

Common here, though it tends more towards nice jumps relative to the skater's level, terrible everything else.  Since many of our adults do not jump, it does not apply to them.

[jjane45]

Ha the tricks vs basics dilemma, I'm curious too. Turns are more likely associated with basics though.

Coach has pointed out my basic skills are not on par with tricks, which was surprising because I thought both are bad, but if I have to pick one, jumps are worse than basics. Later turns out he specifically referred to my posture and free leg position during turns and moves.

Some skaters with limited resources get their fundamentals from group lessons, and start small privates around lutz / axel to focus on harder tricks. In this case it's difficult to develop beautiful basic skills unless the skater competes USFS and needs to pass MITF tests.

[Skittl1321]

There seem to be lots of skaters around here who can do higher level jumps and spins but have terrible basics. They dont have great turns though.

However, when you start picking apart their tricks, you see those too have holes in them.

I just find it embarassing for someone with 3 doubles to be toe picking their way around the rink when doing laps.

[davincisop]

I've noticed that a lot at my rink this summer. A lot of the girls have been there practicing every day and while we are all the same level, they're suddenly doing camels and laybacks and a bunch of huge jumps that look impressive at first, but the more you watch them you realize it's really sloppy, and then you watch them even more and notice everything about their skating is sloppy because their coach is pushing them into new things when the other stuff isn't ready yet.

The great thing about coming back to skating as an adult is I appreciate the basics more. I have strong edges and elements, have passed my pre-bronze and bronze moves with above average scores and really work hard to make sure all my silver elements are strong, because honestly, you can have an impressive jump but if the footwork is crud then you're not going to look as awesome out there.

I've also noticed these girls are getting some sort of superiority complexes on the ice, not looking out for people when doing things.... funny enough these girls all train with the same coach who also has a bit of a superiority complex.   Oh well.

[hopskipjump]

My dd has great jumps and spins, but the footwork needs additional help.  IMHO, without a huge focus on figures, it's not unusual.  Dd has extra work with moves - she will be doing pre-juv moves in the field and it's work getting it nice for testing! 

[icedancer]

Please do not call freestyle elements "tricks".

[Clarice]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend.  One of my daughter's former coaches, a former Olympian, used to use that term, so I didn't think it was derogatory.  The point remains the same, though - he used to say that in order to do the "big tricks", you had to have the skating skills to back them up.

[FigureSpins]

Please do not call freestyle elements "tricks".

I think the term is appropriate in this situation.  The skaters who can do good spins and get all the way around on jumps without having good entries and in between skating skills are doing tricks, not elements.  You see them at freestyles - spin, jump, jump, spin, stroking with their heads down, hands in pockets, and crappy crossovers.  Their landings are short and they have to turn around because they can't control them.  They tick off each element as mastered as soon as they feel that's it's "good enough."  Therefore, they're not performing elements, they're doing tricks!

[momtovanan]

My DD's coach complained the same thing about my DD. He said her spins and jumps are way better than her skating skill. He spends a lot of time to improve her basic skills though. He makes her practice everyday for 30 minutes on basic only.

[hopskipjump]

My DD's coach complained the same thing about my DD. He said her spins and jumps are way better than her skating skill. He spends a lot of time to improve her basic skills though. He makes her practice everyday for 30 minutes on basic only.

Same here - most of the lesson is on skating vs jumps and spins now. I think it's totally normal - everyone grows in cycles.  At one time spins were really hard for dd so that is what she focused on.  Then she had the axel - that took a lot of the focus.  Now she is focusing on the skating.  I think it would be harder for a kid to focus on everything all of the time. 

[jjane45]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend.  One of my daughter's former coaches, a former Olympian, used to use that term, so I didn't think it was derogatory.  The point remains the same, though - he used to say that in order to do the "big tricks", you had to have the skating skills to back them up.

My Coach uses the term "tricks" without meaning to offend either and I do not have problem with it. I am also thinking gliding maneuvers fall under this category so it's not just spins and jumps. More direct and descriptive, I imagine children will understand "tricks" better than "freestyle elements"?

Anyways, there is a delicate balance between 1) achieving as much as possible in freestyle elements and 2) obtaining decent basics to back up the freestyle elements.

He spends a lot of time to improve her basic skills though. He makes her practice everyday for 30 minutes on basic only.

Would you mind sharing what specifically does coach make your daughter work on?

It took a while to convince Coach that I want to work on my weak basics instead of solely focusing on test requirements for FS level. He has excellent figures background so everything works out perfectly.

[aussieskater]

Our rink it's very common for the kids to have high-level tricks but poor basics.  This is especially true of spins; less applicable to jumps - they'll tend to be "flingy" and uncontrolled.  The adults are often reversed - their basics generally seem to be much better than their elements.  Maybe it's because adult starters have to work so much harder to get going in the first place - we often can't just "fling and pray"?   

Re "tricks" vs "freestyle elements":  I agree with Clarice, FigureSpins and jjane.  My current coach (also a former Olympian) calls freeskate jumps and spins "tricks", and not in a derogatory way - even Olympic gold medalists' elements are "tricks".

[jjane45]

How do we define basic skating skills anyways? Do they include moves in the field, gliding maneuvers, or advanced turns by any chance?

[AgnesNitt]

How do we define basic skating skills anyways? Do they include moves in the field, gliding maneuvers, or advanced turns by any chance?

I always thought it was anything that wasn't a jump or a spin.

[icefrog]

I agree with Agnes. I thought it was stroking, crossovers, and edge quality. This can carry over to everything else though, as everyone knows.

[Skittl1321]

How do we define basic skating skills anyways? Do they include moves in the field, gliding maneuvers, or advanced turns by any chance?

Seems odd to include advanced turns in "basic" skating skills.  But I think being able to do advanced turns relies on having strong basics.

[Clarice]

Seems odd to include advanced turns in "basic" skating skills.  But I think being able to do advanced turns relies on having strong basics.

In this context, I define the word "basic" as meaning "fundamental" rather than low-level.  So I agree with those who say those skills include stroking, crossovers, edging, and turns.  It's pretty much all the stuff tested in Moves in the Field.

[AgnesNitt]

In this context, I define the word "basic" as meaning "fundamental" rather than low-level.  So I agree with those who say those skills include stroking, crossovers, edging, and turns.  It's pretty much all the stuff tested in Moves in the Field.

I was told that MIF was created because once figures went away programs became skate-skate-jump-skate-skate-jump. MIF was introduced to bring back flow, carriage, and edges. You see this lack of fundamental skating skills to a degree in some men's programs; the focus in so much on the jumps that the actual program is little more than some arm waving, butt shaking, 3 turn and a jump, over and over again. booorinnng

[jjane45]

How do we define basic skating skills anyways? Do they include moves in the field, gliding maneuvers, or advanced turns by any chance?

Let me rephrase the question... Does basic skating skills plus freestyle elements cover everything in figure skating (including ice dance)?

Coach has pointed out my basic skills are not on par with tricks, which was surprising because I thought both are bad, but if I have to pick one, jumps are worse than basics. Later turns out he specifically referred to my posture and free leg position during turns and moves.

After giving it more thoughts, I now interpret my Coach's statement as "basics not living up to the LEVEL where the FS elements belong".

For example, since I started working on lutzes and axel drills, my Coach anticipates the basics are also reaching ISI FS5 level. The current quality of my jumps and spins are not necessarily relevant, he measures the quality of basics against a set expectation for FS5 level skater.

[aussieskater]

After giving it more thoughts, I now interpret my Coach's statement as "basics not living up to the LEVEL where the FS elements belong".

I never thought of it that way until now, but I will now!

[techskater]

Jjane, that's actually a good way to describe it as you can't expect someone working on an Axel to skate like Carolina Kostner from a speed and flow standpoint. 

I unfortunately see a lot of high level element attemps with poor basic skating skills.  By attempts, I also mean that many of the skaters are severely under-rotating the jump or have some strange technique that "helps" them do the element (like the reverse wind up for the loop/2loop or the hammer toe on the flip/Lutz).  Some of these skaters are being told they "have" jumps by coaches who are continuing to push them to more difficult elements ("now that you "have" a 2F and a 2Lz, let's start on the 2A) and additional lessons. 

[jumpingbeansmom]

There seem to be lots of skaters around here who can do higher level jumps and spins but have terrible basics. They dont have great turns though.

However, when you start picking apart their tricks, you see those too have holes in them.

I just find it embarassing for someone with 3 doubles to be toe picking their way around the rink when doing laps.

Yep... I see kids that can jump, but they cannot skate.  And yes, with every moves test, I feel like everything about my dd's skating, tricks and basics have improved. 

[jumpingbeansmom]

I was told that MIF was created because once figures went away programs became skate-skate-jump-skate-skate-jump. MIF was introduced to bring back flow, carriage, and edges. You see this lack of fundamental skating skills to a degree in some men's programs; the focus in so much on the jumps that the actual program is little more than some arm waving, butt shaking, 3 turn and a jump, over and over again. booorinnng

And honestly, I like the changes made recently making the moves harder... I am glad my dd only got to Juv moves before the changes...she had to really work at the intermediate and I think it is showing in her skating overall, including the 'tricks'.