Progression of jumps / axel prerequisites

[jjane45]

I've always been wondering if salchow, toeloop, flip, and lutz jumps are absolute prerequisites for the axel jump. It's clear that waltz jump, loop jump, back spin, and their various combinations are prerequisites. Plus off-ice jumps, basic stroking and edges. But how do the other jumps facilitate the axel jump, if at all?

In a hypothetical scenario, if a young skater's goal is to land a SOLID single axel jump in the shortest time possible and everything else is irrelevant. Would you think the skater will achieve this goal faster without learning the jumps outside of waltz and loop? What are the "bare minimum" requirements? If the goal is changed to a double axel, how will the requirements change in your opinion?

It's a purely hypothetical question, I am by no means endorsing "axel only" goal setting

[Skittl1321]

I don't do an axel, so I don't really know- but it seems like a salchow would be helpful.  It is already very similar to waltz, but helps you get the feel of rotation.

I don't know if toe-loop, flip, lutz really do much to help axel, they are a different kind of jump. (Though my coach tells me flip and loop are essentially the same- I don't quite get why though)

[Skate@Delaware]

I don't do an axel, so I don't really know- but it seems like a salchow would be helpful.  It is already very similar to waltz, but helps you get the feel of rotation.

I don't know if toe-loop, flip, lutz really do much to help axel, they are a different kind of jump. (Though my coach tells me flip and loop are essentially the same- I don't quite get why though)

Flip & loop have the same edge take-off & rotation in the air.  I would be sure to have a loop & solid backspin before attempting to work on the axel (off-ice first).  And lots of waltz-loops; waltz-backspins, etc....

[Sierra]

If a skater is struggling to rotate a flip and lutz, they probably are not going to rotate an axel. Rotating lutzes is pretty much all about proper shoulder placement, and if you can't do it in a lutz, you might have problems doing it in an axel. I don't know what would happen though if flip/lutz were entirely skipped over.
I started axel right after I finally rotated a lutz. So it wasn't consistent, but my flip and loop were.

As for double axels, I see this in my rink all the time. There's a few skaters here working on double axels when they haven't landed double flips and cannot even rotate double loops. I don't really get it at all- if the skater can't rotate a double loop, how are they going to do a double axel?
I don't know if it's a region thing (the other rink in town does the same thing) or if it's a trend across the entire skating community.

[Sk8tmum]

As for double axels, I see this in my rink all the time. There's a few skaters here working on double axels when they haven't landed double flips and cannot even rotate double loops. I don't really get it at all- if the skater can't rotate a double loop, how are they going to do a double axel?
I don't know if it's a region thing (the other rink in town does the same thing) or if it's a trend across the entire skating community.

I can answer from my kid's perspective: because the axel was a comparatively easy jump, and the double axel came easier than the 2L, and it's a big point gainer.  Same way the 3T came easier than the 2L   Every skater is different ... the axel takeoff is for some skaters easier than for others, and the toe jumps easier than the edge jumps.  Is it a great idea to do the 2A and skip the 2L? Probably not. But, if you're going into competition season, and you need to rack up the points, you'll get that 2A under control and pick up your 3.3 points, and shelve the 2L until you are back to a training period.  I also know a few kids who land solid doubles and still can't land a decent axel ... it's partly mental ... partly physical ...

Back to the original OP.  I don't see why, theoretically, you couldn't just do an axel and nothing else.  If you focus solely on that jump, and develop the technique, you could do it.  As the axel is already a "confuser" jump (forward takeoff, 1-1/4 rotations) - it already is different from the singles and the doubles.  By working on a steady diet of waltz jumps, backspins, etc etc etc - sure you could do it.  In fact, it might be easier as you would be only working on "feeling" 1-1/4 rotations instead of 1 rotation? YOu would also not be having to learn the different takeoffs, again, reducing the confusion of learning multiple takeoffs, landings, etc.  In terms of the 2A: same argument, particularly if you've focussed on getting a really solid 1A.  It's often a "confuser" for the doubles, as the skater ends up overrotating the doubles due to the additional 1/2 rotation in the air on the 2A.   

I would think that any skater who decides to focus on, train, and specialize in one jump could achieve excellence in that jump ... why not?  But, it wouldn't make sense, really ...

Same way you could learn a wicked camel spin without learning a scratch or sit spin, I would think.

[Skittl1321]

Same way you could learn a wicked camel spin without learning a scratch or sit spin, I would think.

I've actually heard multiple people recommend back camel as a way to learn backspin.

[Isk8NYC]

Though my coach tells me flip and loop are essentially the same- I don't quite get why though

Because both takeoff from the same foot, rotate in the same direction, and land the same way.  It's just getting up into the air that's different.
Once you're there, the alignment and position are the same.

Flip & loop have the same edge take-off & rotation in the air. 

CW:
Flip = RBI edge w/ left toe-assist takeoff
Loop = LBO edge-to-toe takeoff

Maybe you meant they take off from the same foot? 

A Flip shouldn't use the same takeoff edge as a Loop ... unless you're doing what Jazzpants calls a "Floop."
.

[Skate@Delaware]

That's what I meant, a flip is a toe-assist loop. (sorry for the confusion-I shouldn't post on the board when I have a migraine  )

[jjane45]

Rotating lutzes is pretty much all about proper shoulder placement, and if you can't do it in a lutz, you might have problems doing it in an axel. I don't know what would happen though if flip/lutz were entirely skipped over.

Very interesting and right on the point. Would you think there is a faster way to learn the shoulder placement other than learning the lutz jump?

...If you focus solely on that jump, and develop the technique, you could do it.  As the axel is already a "confuser" jump (forward takeoff, 1-1/4 rotations) - it already is different from the singles and the doubles.  By working on a steady diet of waltz jumps, backspins, etc etc etc - sure you could do it... I would think that any skater who decides to focus on, train, and specialize in one jump could achieve excellence in that jump ... why not?  

Same way you could learn a wicked camel spin without learning a scratch or sit spin, I would think.

Sk8tmum, I think you nailed it!

[fsk8r]

That's what I meant, a flip is a toe-assist loop. (sorry for the confusion-I shouldn't post on the board when I have a migraine  )

To be pedantic, a flip is a toe-assisted salchow.

I think what you're meaning is that the flip takes off the same toe as the loop jump so at the moment of take-off they're very similar. (I've done some accidental loops when my toe doesn't stick right and I roll off it).

[Skate@Delaware]

To be pedantic, a flip is a toe-assisted salchow.

I think what you're meaning is that the flip takes off the same toe as the loop jump so at the moment of take-off they're very similar. (I've done some accidental loops when my toe doesn't stick right and I roll off it).

I give up....I'll just stick to skating and not explaining...

heck, I still get conflusted between a toe-loop and a salchow if I think too hard about it lol!

[Skittl1321]

Toe loop is the one where you jam your foot into the ice first


(I can never remember which foot picks for which jump, so I'm often known to end up doing a toe loop midway through a half-flip attempt. As the foot comes around I'm thinking DAMN.)

[fsk8r]

(I can never remember which foot picks for which jump, so I'm often known to end up doing a toe loop midway through a half-flip attempt. As the foot comes around I'm thinking DAMN.)

Been there, done that and got the t-shirt! Coach was nearly very impressed when I attempted a flip which was at the time done from a snails pace with my full toe-loop take off speed. I freaked at the last minute just to resume normal service...

[aussieskater]

Very interesting and right on the point. Would you think there is a faster way to learn the shoulder placement other than learning the lutz jump?

Is the lutz shoulder positioning the same one used for figures-style BO counters or brackets (the type where you have to turn turn "up the top of the mountain", rather than sag the turn into the circle, and trace a full "half circle in then half circle out" serpentine)?

[Sierra]

Very interesting and right on the point. Would you think there is a faster way to learn the shoulder placement other than learning the lutz jump?

The normal axel preps require the same shoulders, I think. Backspins (on the outside edge), waltz-loops, waltz-backspins. It was in fact a backspin exercise that my coach gave me for the lutz that helped me finally rotate it.
One could always just crash through the axel to learn the shoulders, too, but that's probably not the best way to approach it.

[fsk8r]

The normal axel preps require the same shoulders, I think. Backspins (on the outside edge), waltz-loops, waltz-backspins. It was in fact a backspin exercise that my coach gave me for the lutz that helped me finally rotate it.
One could always just crash through the axel to learn the shoulders, too, but that's probably not the best way to approach it.

What was the exercise for the lutz? (I'm all ears about shoulder placement as I'm wondering if this is my problem).

[Skate@Delaware]

I learned the importance of shoulders way back in re-learning 3-turns, and again when i had difficulty with backspins. My shoulders were blocking me....once I got them behaving & doing what they were supposed to be doing, the backspins improved. And I learned to have more respect for them  (they did more than just get in my way lol). I'm eagerly waiting to find out what they are supposed to be doing for each jump-as I'm learning the lutz now, this will be perfect timing.

[Sierra]

What was the exercise for the lutz? (I'm all ears about shoulder placement as I'm wondering if this is my problem).

You do a slow setup for a lutz on a nice deep outside edge, then instead of picking in, put the ball of your right foot down and pull into a 1 rev backspin and exit. You kinda need to angle your right foot to the left to be able to step onto it. Since there's no entrance and thus no momentum to the spin, you're forced to use your arms and have your right shoulder pulled back to get the 1 rev around- you'll never manage to spin if your right shoulder is too far in front (which was my problem in the lutz).

The first time I managed to do this exercise the full rev around & exit on one foot, I rotated and landed the next lutz I tried.

[Isk8NYC]

I like that exercise - thanks for sharing!

[fsk8r]

I'll have to give that exercise a try. Sounds good (and logical).

[techskater]

The normal axel preps require the same shoulders, I think. Backspins (on the outside edge), waltz-loops, waltz-backspins.

I don't find that the Lutz and Axel have the same shoulders at all and both are consistent jumps for me (Axels are better for me than Lutzes, actually).  For the Lutz, I need to pull way back with the picking side shoulder to maintain a strong outside edge through the entry.  For Axel, I ride the entry edge very strongly but the shoulder doesn't pull back anywhere near as strongly.

[sarahspins]

My progression was probably a bit different than most, but I had very solid singles before I started working on my axel.  It took me 6 weeks of working on it (with my coach - I had been attempting them earlier with no success) before I landed it clean, but I had it consistent after that... I almost never fell on them unless I needed my blades sharpened (which usually caused more problems with take-off than landing).

Then I had kids and I haven't attempted one since (I have done some waltz-backspins though)... maybe I'll get brave enough some day, but I doubt it