Verbally ....Unpleasant.... Coaches?

[TheAquarian]

As I sit here at a rink that is not my home rink while the zamboni resurfaces the ice I find myself somewhat agast at some of the coaching I have seen.  In fact of the three coaches, I think only one of them would have survived the entire lesson without being fired if I had been the one "instructed."    I am really unaccustomed to hearing coaches shriek verbal battery accross the ice to their clients with little or no observeable constructive feedback.  Is this common at other rinks?  I seriously felt bad for the girls in lessons.  If I had been that age without the power to twll the coach to take a hike, I probabally would have quit the sport or hated every minute of it.

I am curious what other peoples experiences are with verbally harsh coaching styles.

[techskater]

It's not uncommon.  You'll run into more and more of it the more you foray away from your home rink.   Basically, those that can't get their point across, uh, shreik, quite often.

[AgnesNitt]

I think it depends on the age of the skater. I've had coaches who were perfectly nice to me turn into real shriekers at teenagers. I've asked about this, and been told that it takes shrieking to get some kids to pay attention. By this the coach means that the kid will keep doing stuff wrong until the coach yells at them. Since I'm an adult, I've had coaches tell me a lot of stuff about training situations. They do tune their techniques to the skater. A coach with a lot of teenagers who just want to play around, may find themselves shrieking all day.

[Clarice]

Yelling corrections is one thing, verbal abuse is another.  It's important to differentiate.  The PSA just had a major presentation on abuse in sports at their annual conference.

[Sk8Dreams]

Yelling corrections is one thing, verbal abuse is another.  It's important to differentiate.  The PSA just had a major presentation on abuse in sports at their annual conference.

And what you describe qualifies.

[TheAquarian]

Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  I've been really busy with school work etc.

There was one coach in particular that was bothering because she had a whiny shrill voice that reminded me of Margarer Cho's impression of a catty dominatrix, or the girl who ate her friend Carla; she just... didn't seem to do a whole lot of instruction.    

All I heard from her is  "You're making a choice to do it wrong! Don't do it again!  You hear me?  Don't you do it!   If you're not going to skate right just get off the ice and go home!"   She seemed to treat all her students that way.   Had I been the person being instructed, I'd have expected the coach to #1  - indicate what exactly I was doing incorrectly (as opposed to a generalized "You suck" attitude),  and #2  offer suggestions to make it better.      As a bonus #3,  perhaps demonstrate  the incorrect and correct ways to perform the manuver rather than sitting in the open door of penalty box with her legs hanging out over the ice the 80% time to trip people, the times she wasn't sitting there seemed to involve lots of finger pointing and scolding with no demonstration of proper technique.

[Clarice]

I can't tell from what you say whether this would qualify as verbal abuse, but it certainly sounds like very poor teaching technique.  A good teacher phrases things positively more than negatively ("do this" rather than "don't do that"), praises when possible (even for very small improvements, in order to shape the behavior), and has multiple strategies for imparting information (because different students learn in different ways).  Staying by the boards is not necessarily a problem, especially if the skater is doing a program, because coaches are supposed to stay out of the way, but if it's a skills lesson I would expect the coach to do some demonstrating.

[Hanca]

Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  I've been really busy with school work etc.

There was one coach in particular that was bothering because she had a whiny shrill voice that reminded me of Margarer Cho's impression of a catty dominatrix, or the girl who ate her friend Carla; she just... didn't seem to do a whole lot of instruction.    

All I heard from her is  "You're making a choice to do it wrong! Don't do it again!  You hear me?  Don't you do it!   If you're not going to skate right just get off the ice and go home!"   She seemed to treat all her students that way.   Had I been the person being instructed, I'd have expected the coach to #1  - indicate what exactly I was doing incorrectly (as opposed to a generalized "You suck" attitude),  and #2  offer suggestions to make it better.      As a bonus #3,  perhaps demonstrate  the incorrect and correct ways to perform the manuver rather than sitting in the open door of penalty box with her legs hanging out over the ice the 80% time to trip people, the times she wasn't sitting there seemed to involve lots of finger pointing and scolding with no demonstration of proper technique.

The trouble is that you don't know the whole story. You don't know whether this student has been told how to do it (and shown how to do it) every lesson for the last year and he/she is not making the changes that coach had suggested... Sometimes I learn something, and it is nearly but not quite it, and when it is needed to make the correction to make it right, it is so hard (perhaps because I have been doing it wrong for too long) that it is completely out of my comfort zone to do the change what I was advised. I am not saying that it is the case of the coach-student you described above, but there may be more in it than you are aware of.

I think I would find it very frustrating to be a coach. If the student is talented and want to learn, it is fine, but there are some students who either don't want to learn, or perhaps want to learn but are not really doing what they are told to get it better...

[hopskipjump]

I've been thinking about it and I guess I wouldn't know the situation unless I was close to it.  I've sen verbally abusive parents - screaming at their kids from across the ice, really angry - but I've never seen them return so I think either they are there when I am not or management talked to them.

I've seen yelling coaches.  But they seem to only do it to girls who are related or girls 12 and up.  While I don't condone it, I have seen some very snippy girls who threaten coaches who teach classes (I'll tell my mom you're mean!") or they say "I don't have to do it that way, my coach said to do it her way, your way is wrong".  Those are in quotes because off ice the girls relayed the story like they were very important girls to everyone else.  And it's not yelling in anyway but to shout instruction or to pay attention.  There isn't any name calling or belittling.

It would be hard to work with a kid with a lot of attitude or who wasn't receptive to different methods.

[phoenix]

It is very true that you don't know the back story, although since the same thing was going on with every student it doesn't sound like there was a lot of great teaching going on. But you never know.

I have one student who I've had for years, who simply doesn't pay attention to her basic skating technique until I've spent 10 minutes giving the same corrections I've been giving her for, literally, years. So I've begun starting her lesson with very simple drills--forward swing rolls, backward swing rolls, etc. If she skates the first round making the same mistakes, being sloppy simply because she's not bothering to focus, I now simply tell her, "do it again, and fix it." She knows perfectly well how to do it correctly. So bent free legs, sloppy feet, looking down, no power---those do not get immediate corrections from me, unless she's done the same thing a few times, and then, yes, I'm pretty short with my correction. I'm trying to get her to be aware of her own body lines and be responsible for skating to a certain level without my having to waste lesson time every single week on stuff that she should be owning herself at this point. And it is working--she's much more pulled together right off the bat, because she's learned that she doesn't get to do anything but basics until she does it right.

That may sound a little harsh to an outside observer, but they wouldn't know the history.

[Sk8Dreams]

To those who say we don't know the whole story, the example given by the OP is almost exactly the example given at the PSA conference I just attended.  The fact that this coach treats all her students this way indicates that she has no other tricks in her bag.  It's not believable that all her students "make a choice to do it wrong."  Personally, that is something I would never say to a student.  I have said things along the lines of "I know you can do it better than that.  Try again, and remember...." 

[hopskipjump]

How many students could she have had in one session?  It's not the OP's home rink.  I would just hate to assume that coach is "always" like that in every lesson and class.

I could not permit my daughter to be treated harshly.  She is one of those kids who gives it her all at every lesson and class.  Her coach is perfect for her because she is supportive and kind and knows how to get dd to reach inside and push just a little more.  That being said, we all have bad days and if a session went badly, I'm sure her coach is adult enough to apologize.  I would just hate for her as a coach to have her reputation tarnished over one bad day.

[Hanca]

It's not believable that all her students "make a choice to do it wrong."  Personally, that is something I would never say to a student.  I have said things along the lines of "I know you can do it better than that.  Try again, and remember...."  

I wouldn't really say that they "make a choice to do it wrong.", but the reality is that a lot of new things may feel quite scary and there are some students who will not be willing to get out of the comfort zone. So for example, when doing back outside edge, they may not be willing to  bend the knee deeply and sort of "sit down into it", they will be just 'sort of' bending knee and not doing it properly. Which may be acceptable perhaps for a month or two since they have started learning it as a new skill, but if after quite a few months there is no improvement, the coach may feel that they need to be somehow pushed. If shouting is what does the trick... If you are the person who has some trouble with getting the courage to do new things (not all, but perhaps some new things), would you prefer to be throwing your money away while your coach is watching you every week doing the same rubbish and you wouldn't be improving because you are not quite doing what the coach is saying, or would you prefer the coach to use some stronger forms of encouragements? I am not advocating for bullying and verbal abuse; however, I have to say that shouting has worked on me very well in the past. I am not saying being shouted at every day, just when some stronger action from the coach is needed.

As an example - we have an adult skater (approximately 30 years old) at my rink who has been learning three jump for the last 9 months and she still hasn't managed to get the courage to make it bigger than just a step and with support from the barrier. I feel sorry for her, because she wants to do it (otherwise she wouldn't be working on it for such a long time), but she just doesn't have the courage. How much money she has wasted, and all that she needs is someone just pushing her a bit harder. (And she doesn't have any medical condition which would prevent her learning or jumping.)

[Hanca]

To those who say we don't know the whole story, the example given by the OP is almost exactly the example given at the PSA conference I just attended.  The fact that this coach treats all her students this way indicates that she has no other tricks in her bag.  

Even if the example is 'almost exactly' the example given at the PSA conference you just attended, it still doesn't mean that it fits every situation of coach shouting you witness. Because you don't know the whole story, you are actually fitting the things you are witnessing to the scenario from PSA conference, rather than comparing the cases on the individual basis. So for example, coach screaming at girl A, may be:

1. coach is verbally abusive, girl A is trying really hard
2. coach is trying to encourage girl A, who has some courage difficulties and has stagnated as a result
3. coach is very angry because the girl A has been extremely rude and refused to do what she was told
(I am sure if I spend another hour thinking about this, I would come with another 10-20 scenarios).

My point is, if you see a coach screaming at girl A, all you witnessed is that coach is screaming at girl A. Nothing more, nothing less. Which of the scenarios applies? You have already decided that it is the first one because it is almost exactly the example given at the PSA conference, but as I said earlier, you don't know the whole story.  


And about your point that this coach treats all her students the same way - are you sure that all of them? How many students do you watch this coach teaching? (I get a bit doubtful when someone states categorically that "everyone" gets treated this way. Using word 'everyone' or 'all her students' already indicates that you may be prone to exageration, unless you are at the rink exactly the same hours as this coach is.)

[Sk8Dreams]

Hanca - I'm curious as to why you are defending this unknown coach.  I feel very strongly about this topic.  The day I scream at a student, and I do not care what the circumstances are, is the day I find something else to do.  The day a coach screams at me, is the day I fire her - BTW, it happened and I did.  It's true that neither of us know the details and the whole story, but the way we have responded to what we do know shows that we have very different approaches to teaching and learning.  I believe that harshness has no place in a place of learning.  If you simply ask someone politely why they don't do as you have asked them, you get some very revealing answers.  Here's a sample of some answers I've heard:  I really want to do it, but I'm just too scared.  I don't want to skate, that's my dad's idea.  I know I'm scratching; I'm doing it to keep my speed down because I can't control the turns if I go faster.  It hurts my back/my knee to... 

[Hanca]

Sk8Dreams, the only reason why I am defending this coach is because I believe in "innocent until proven guilty". The coach the first poster wrote about may indeed be verbally abusive coach, but may not be. I don't think it is fair to make a judgement about this coach based on a limited information we have. It seems to me that some posters here already found this coach guilty and as I see it, that's not fair. 

I am not a coach, but I am a skater. I have had several different coaches in the past, and although I can't say that I particularly enjoy when someone is shouting at me, I have to admit that it worked for me. It pushed me behind certain comfort zone. This may not be the politically correct opinion, but it is my honest opinion. I am not saying it would work for everyone, but you have the choice of which coach you ask to teach you. If the methods of of one coach don't work for you, change the coach. I have also had one coach in the past which had very sweet, gentle personality and I was not progressing very much (although I did want to and tried hard). I am not sure what this says about me, maybe I am lazy and can't move my bottom unless someone very strict makes me, I don't know. All I am saying is that sometimes it works, at least for some skaters, and therefore I would not automatically brand when someone is being shouted at by a coach as verbal abuse.

[Sk8Dreams]

Hanca - I see your point.  If there were even a chance of knowing who that coach is, I would be more cautious myself.  One reason I feel so strongly about the OP's observation, is that the students were children, who often do not have a choice.  There are parents who turn a blind eye to many kinds of abuse, on the ice, at school, at home, etc.  There are also parents who are not present during their children's lessons, so the child doesn't have a chance if there is abuse.  Many kids are too scared to tell their parents; scared of the coach, scared skating will stop, etc.

[Sierra]

There has been times that coach yells at me from across the rink to 'just land the damn thing.' Is that verbal abuse? Absolutely not. She and I both know that I already know very well what I need to do to land, and her reminding me what to do isn't going to help any, but giving me a big kick will help. Now, if an outsider watched, they'd go, "Oh my gosh! That poor kid is being yelled and cussed at! Verbal abuse!" But it's simply not the case. I picked my coach because she pushes very hard.

It's not really anybody's business. If the kid is being verbally abused, it's up to the kid and the parents to step up and take action. No one who is simply watching can have a single clue what might be really going on.

[AgnesNitt]

It's not really anybody's business. If the kid is being verbally abused, it's up to the kid and the parents to step up and take action.

And the skating director.

[icefrog]

I feel like landing a jump is the goal 99% of the time. So why shout that to a student? how does that help the student?

[hopskipjump]

I think it's up to more than the child and parent and skating director though...I think any bystander thinking a child is being abused (verbally or physically) needs to report it to the director as it is happening.  They know their coaches!  Heck, maybe it is a visiting coach and they are not known.  They can determine more than a bystander, but it is the bystander who is sometimes the only person who speaks up.

[Sk8tmum]

There is a whole thread in the Parents/Coaches about this topic. Lots of debate. You might want to consider looking at it.

Abuse can take a lot of forms; some of the most "nasty" coaches I have been aware of have been quiet and polite - just vicious and hyper-critical with it, and nicely subtle.  Some of the kindest, most supportive and most effective and caring coaches have been the yellers and screamers. 

My kid's coach screams across the ice, and carries on loud and often very tough conversations with the kid.  Same coach has been coaching for 40 years. Has a huge stable of highly loyal, highly effective and very "undamaged" skaters, who bring her their own kids to coach, and who include her in their weddings, come back to visit, etc etc etc.  Also produces very good skaters too, by the way. And is endlessly gentle and caring with special needs kids. We are not "turning a blind eye" to abuse; we are comfortable with the relationship they have, which is longstanding and very affectionate. 

A couple of parents did come to me and comment about the yelling.  I turned them around to see same coach and my kid jumping up and down together hugging and cheering over a landed jump.  It works for us, and definitely for my kid.  If yelling is not your coaching style - then don't do it. If you don't like coaches who yell - then don't hire one. I also pointed out that the yelled instruction - was responded to with a huge grin and a thumbs up, and then a nicely executed piece of footwork.   

BTW: our other kid's coach doesn't yell. She's also effective.  Then again, she wouldn't be as effective with kid 1, and kid 1's coach wouldn't be as effective with kid 2.

[jumpingbeansmom]

I feel like landing a jump is the goal 99% of the time. So why shout that to a student? how does that help the student?

Not so according to dd's coach-- simply landing on one's foot isn't good enough for him!

[Hanca]

I feel like landing a jump is the goal 99% of the time. So why shout that to a student? how does that help the student?

Are you a skater yourself? Ok, so imagine, you just didn't land the jump. Maybe second time or third time in a row. If your coach is going to pretend that he/she haven't noticed, you may start wondering whether he/she bothers to look at all (and if he/she does look, whether he/she cares at all). Whereas if your coach shouts at Sierra 'just land the damn thing', she will know that her coach cares and is trying to encourage her. 

[icefrog]

Yes I am a skater. If I can't land something and I keep falling or putting my foot down or not rotating the jump or whatever my coach would never say "land the damn thing" she would tell me that my head is in the wrong place, I'm doing that weird arm thing again, my take off edge was wrong, I was swinging my free leg into the jump, I dropped my free hip. I could go on.

My coach does sometimes shout, and it is very encouraging and done because she cares about us, but when she shouts its a correction or if we do something super fantastic, like someone lands a double axel. I guess its why there are so many coaches so everyone can pick one with a style that works for them.