Choreography Chat

[jjane45]

I wish there is a checklist or survey before getting choreography for the first time. Should save the coach's time too to know ahead of time what are the skater's most / least liked elements, favorite music, and probably most importantly, comfort level with connecting steps outside of skating curriculum. (Can you do a mazurka? No. What about a grapevine? Um what...??!)

[techskater]

jjane, I looked for the like button on your last post.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me0RvshG1pY
Grapevines around the 1:31 mark.  

[fsk8r]

I wish there is a checklist or survey before getting choreography for the first time. Should save the coach's time too to know ahead of time what are the skater's most / least liked elements, favorite music, and probably most importantly, comfort level with connecting steps outside of skating curriculum. (Can you do a mazurka? No. What about a grapevine? Um what...??!)

But the coach and the skater won't know what's just slightly outside the comfort zone until you start joining steps together. I've just had a new coach choreograph a step sequence. She asked to see the old one to see what sort of things I'm doing. What I've just been given is technically harder, but I actually prefer it. There are things in it which are pushing my skating abilities, but I wouldn't necessarily said I was ready to put them in a program. You don't know until you try. And you've also got to be able to do them in context. Being able to do a beautiful Mazurka on it's own is not the same as doing it in a program straight from steps.

[FigureSpins]

I start Basic Skills/ISI choreography with a few lists:

(1) Required elements for that level.
(2) Things the skater can do that are not allowed in their level.
(3) Skater's favorite/best elements
(4) Stretch elements - things they can't do yet, but will be able to learn.  (Unique positions, gliding maneuvers, jump entries, etc.)

For example, one of my Basic Skills skaters was allowed to do a one-foot spin, but it wasn't required at her level.  I included it because I wanted her to master that spin - I knew she could do it and putting it in the program gave her a goal.  It took her several weeks to master the open position (similar to the ballet jump) but it was beautiful at the competition.

The other thing I incorporate (without a list) is our combined idea of the  program's "character."  Two of skaters did an adorable duet to some Nutcracker music, where they were baby dolls.  I thought of Kewpie Dolls: cute, sweet and loving.  The girls just went to town with the idea: their program organically included little gestures and movements that were very doll-ish and adorable.  Another of my students chose a delicate ballet piece of music and we created the Snotty Ballerina character, which kept her head up and her gestures fluid and interesting.  It really helps for the skater to dance to the music several times so they get the feel for what they want to create.

[Skittl1321]

I wish there is a checklist or survey before getting choreography for the first time. Should save the coach's time too to know ahead of time what are the skater's most / least liked elements, favorite music, and probably most importantly, comfort level with connecting steps outside of skating curriculum. (Can you do a mazurka? No. What about a grapevine? Um what...??!)

I sent a list like this to the girl who did my choreography, because while she had seen me skate, we'd never worked together.  Things like "I can do spirals fwd or bwd on either edge, but they have to be on my right leg"  a list of my jumps and spins, that I favor turns going CW, but if moving slowly can do CCW.

The actual choregraphy was still a bit "really? no running toe steps? can you try?"  (NO!  But most thing I did try, and we kept some, not others) but it did give her a starting place.

[Sk8tmum]

Okay, choreo has worked with my kid for years.  So has the coach; and the coach and the choreo work very tightly together. All are on the ice together.  So, you would think ... anyways, they were trying to figure out a connecting step/field move.  Kid shrugs, and pulls off a beautiful Ina Bauer. 

Chore: "When did you learn to do THAT? You can't do Ina Bauer's!"
Kid: "I can now."
Choreo: "You've never been able to do that.  Who taught you that?"
Kid: "Me. And watching Youtube. Same as this" (does really cool spin).

Really cool spin and Ina Bauer now in program.

You can never assume a skater doesn't have something in their bag of tricks that you didn't know they had ... so, yeah, a checklist ... good idea ... and maybe a "wishlist" - something that has never been in a program, that maybe the skater just wants to learn how to do (the stretch objective) ... I'm lobbying for a walley this year ...

[jjane45]

Wow the choreography discussions are awesome! Admin, is it possible to split choreo posts into a separate thread, please?

Thank you techskater for the video, I made up the conversation about mazurka and grapevine, but seriously could see that happening to skaters getting the first program or working with a new coach.

(4) in FigureSpins' post interests me the most: things they can't do yet, but will be able to learn.  (Unique positions, gliding maneuvers, jump entries, etc.) Time is needed to develop those nice show stops and intricate steps into spins or jumps, a wish list is indeed very, very helpful.

I imagine a survey or "wishlist" could sort the stretch elements by type (gliding maneuver, turns, positions), difficulty (dunno, scale from 1 to 10), and familiarity (never heard of it, attempted without success, some success, consistently doing it, can do it in my sleep etc.) This self-assessment is not going to be 100% accurate but should be a nice starting point.

What are the pros and cons of going through such a choreo-prep list with the coach or choreographer? I feel it really helps realistic goal setting, putting everyone on the same page (LOL @ Sk8tmum's story above), adding polish, and getting skater's inputs. OTOH having to explain every single element on the list to student / coach could be time consuming, and what if skater tries too many things too hard on her or his own and suffers injury?

Again, thank you for all your lovely posts!

[Sk8tmum]

Choreo and coach should have a meeting of the mind re: stretch objectives, plus, coach may have better perspective on what is and isn't achievable. If coach really wants skaters to be able to do - say - death drop this year, then, having choreo earmark a spot in the program where that can be accomodated is important, even if right now it has to be a different spin; similarly, if coach expects skater to be able to land the 2A instead of the 1A in the skating year, then, space and an appropriate entry for the future needs to be accomodated. 

Saves time having to rechoreo later in the year, or having to pull out a "really neat" part of the program to accomodate the entry to the new jump.

Maybe the wish list should be done with skater/coach? It also gives a good moment for dialogue on expectations etc.

Now, our wish list is done on the fly and in a very interactive way ... usually with the coach yelling "Can you get that kid to FINALLY do steps into the double loop?" across the ice ...  or, "Put something in there so that the arms aren't flapping like usual."   Then, they go out for coffee and commiserate with each other over the joys of getting through yet another year's choreo with my over-analytical and rather unmusical kid ... 

[jjane45]

OK so during today's ice show I was thinking about this "chore choreo wish list" project while watching skaters doing step sequence or gliding maneuvers. "Variations" will be very difficult to capture and list. For lunge alone there are tons of ways to enter and exit, not talking about the actual position during it.

Categories:
Gliding maneuvers
Turns
Unlisted jumps (e.g. split jump, stag jump)
Misc. elements (e.g. running toes, hops, stops, pivots)

Variations:
Positions (e.g. layback, bielmann)
Left or right
Direction & edge
Entry and exit
........
.....

My head is spinning already

[jjane45]

Sk8tmum, just out of curiosity, on average how long is the coach - choreo collaboration for your daughter's new programs? (ETA: yes that's what I meant to ask: how long is the communication between coach and choreo. thanks!)

I also wonder how do coaches figure out the "personality" of the skater on ice. Some skaters are naturally expressive and comfortable with dramatic movements, some rather die the moment you ask for pretty arm movements. How to find out the boundaries?

[Sk8tmum]

Ummm ... let's see.  Not sure I know quite what you mean ... but, you see, the choreo and the coach are on the ice together, they chat and bounce ideas off of each other as they go for coffee ... and the choreo (who is also a coach herself) - sees the kids skate day in and day out - and knows them really well. Coach is absolutely out of the picture during the actual choreo - except for calling amusing/caustic/supportive comments across the ice!

In terms of who long it takes for the choreo - I have two kids - one who learns choreo like breathing, and the other one who takes longer. Second child is also a competitive level skater, who skates at a higher level.  For the latter:  I would say 5 to 6 hours per program, and then the step sequence is done by the specialist coach who works on transitions and field moves. Two programs at that level, a short and a long. For the other kid, maybe 2 to 3 hours, but, she also competes at a lower level - however, the same amount of effort, and intricacy is in the program - it's simply that she picks up choreo at an incredibly (and apparently highly unusual) rate. Other kids with the same choreo may need more, or less time at the same levels ... it's just dependent on the learning curve of that skater.

It's all done in chunks of time - not an hour at a go - 1/2 hour by 1/2 hour and then 15 minute run thrus at the end of the series to ensure that the whole program is coherent. However, there will be periodic revisits to tweak choreo later in the year. The choreo is part of our home club, and is excellent- we benefit from that.

The music is selected for us; she cuts it, and then choreos it.  We really don't get any input into, as the coach and choreo select it - however, as the music is always excellent and skate-able, and the kids like it, not a problem.

Because the choreo knows the kids, she knows how to pick music that they can skate to; however, they use a range of music from year to year so that the kid doesn't get pigeonholed as a "pretty" or "dramatic" or "perky" or "latin" type skater. And, frankly, you darned well do what you are expected to do - it's like an dancer in a show: if the choreo says that you are doing X you do X, even if you prefer Y, because the mood and the flow need X. I would never have imagined my kid could pull off some of the stuff that she has done ... nor could she back in the day.

BTW:  variations are also possible in your wish list. You can break them down into, say, rockers, 3-turns, choctaws, mohawks etc; and loops (forward/backward, inside outside); twizzles (forwards, backwards) and so on.

[Purple Sparkly]

From my experience, choreography usually takes longer with very low levels (beginner) because not only do you have to decide what to put where, often you have to teach them how to do the transitions.  I have noticed for my own programs that I learn choreography much quicker than I did 5 years ago.

[techskater]

Sk8tmum, just out of curiosity, on average how long is the coach - choreo collaboration for your daughter's new programs? (ETA: yes that's what I meant to ask: how long is the communication between coach and choreo. thanks!)

I also wonder how do coaches figure out the "personality" of the skater on ice. Some skaters are naturally expressive and comfortable with dramatic movements, some rather die the moment you ask for pretty arm movements. How to find out the boundaries?

It depends on the relationship and how close the music "fits" the skater.  For example, my current music really fits my personality and I have a long term relationship with my choreo/coach so it's much easier for us to put a program together.     He also ALWAYS puts a segment in that's a stretch choreographically to my abilities...

[jjane45]

It depends on the relationship and how close the music "fits" the skater.  For example, my current music really fits my personality and I have a long term relationship with my choreo/coach so it's much easier for us to put a program together.     He also ALWAYS puts a segment in that's a stretch choreographically to my abilities...

Haha with time everything gels together much better, guess I am still in the beginner FAQ mindset, and wonder if there is a "fast track" to the first program ever or new choreo / coach relationship.

Beginner / recreational skaters are often absorbed by the required elements of ISI / USFS curriculum or take shorter lessons, that even private coaches may not know their level of familiarity with "stretch elements". Personality on ice, OTOH, is probably more observable to the experienced eyes?

[techskater]

My coach/choreo let's me pick my own music as well.  I do my own cutting.  I know what I like and over time can pick what fits my personality. 

[jjane45]

Does anyone draw diagrams after learning the the new choreo? Something like the dance / MITF patterns? I found myself learning the best that way.

[techskater]

Yes, if you make up a power point with lines and circles, you can actually draw it out.  It's nice to study when you are on a concall with a customer.  (Shhh!  don't tell my boss!)   

[Skittl1321]

Does anyone draw diagrams after learning the the new choreo? Something like the dance / MITF patterns? I found myself learning the best that way.

Yes!  Although, not after- during.  Of the 4 people I've had do programs for me, only one didn't draw as they did it.  It helps them make sure the ice is fully covered, and then is handed off to me.  (I also take notes about footwork and arms and stuff- otherwise I totally forget them, and often so does the choreographer, so the program changes the next time we meet.)

[Kim to the Max]

Yes, if you make up a power point with lines and circles, you can actually draw it out.  It's nice to study when you are on a concall with a customer.  (Shhh!  don't tell my boss!)   

Hehehe It's probably better than me putting them on mute and yelling at them about them talking about things they don't know...

[techskater]

Hehehe It's probably better than me putting them on mute and yelling at them about them talking about things they don't know...

It keeps me from doing that (and then doublechecking to make sure my phone is on mute).