Figure Skating and the NCAA

[FigureSpins]

I've been reading about Rachael Flatt's heading off to Stanford later this year. She's going to major in Chemical Engineering and train for the competitive season at the same time.  I wish her nothing but luck and good health.

It made me think, AGAIN, about why figure skating cannot be an NCAA sport.  The Athletics Director at Stanford pointed out that she's not a varsity athlete, so she won't have unlimited/unscheduled access to off ice training facilities.

Varsity sports are tricky in the NCAA: in some divisions, the colleges can give out athletic scholarships.  Football and basketball are the big-ticket draws, with basketball being equitable between mens and womens.  Some of the aid funding comes from the schools' supporter base.  Ice Hockey has very limited presence, but it is an NCAA sport and some divisions offer scholarships.

I wonder what how sports become recognized by the NCAA and if Figure Skating would qualify?

[Skittl1321]

USFSA has some pdfs on their website that allude to talks to make Synchronized Skating recognized as an NCAA sport.

I think that, like gymnastics, it will be difficult for elite women to ever be college athletes (there are exceptions- Courtney Kupets maintained her eligibility, though I don't know how, since she toured...).  Rachel Flatt could NOT be an NCAA athlete, because she has accepted money in relation to skating (prize money, paid for shows, sponsorship).  Men's gymnasts often don't peak until after college, so they are able to be NCAA and Olympic athletes, women's gymnasts at the Olympics are almost never eligible to be NCAA athletes at the point they reach college.  


So while I'd love to see the NCAA recognize figure skating, it's going to be the lower level (but still junior/senior) skaters who are able to benefit from scholarship and training opportunities, not the elites.  This, like the example above, might be different for men, although many on the JGP are still in high school, I think.



Do many schools have ice rinks?  The place I went to college the hockey team drove about 100 miles to practice, but now the city has a rink.  The club team at the university in my town now plays their games at the mall rink.  Lack of facilities will hurt making ice sports "varsity" at most schools.

[FigureSpins]

Because I work for a college, I've become more aware of colleges with ice rinks and there are quite a few.  (Not near me, of course.)

Our university just started a varsity hockey program, so I pointed out that I'm a PSA member and active figure skating coach.  It fell on deaf ears, lol.  Had to take the shot, though, right?

Our school has an equestrian program, so I thought that was a comparable sport/situation.  I hadn't thought of gymnastics as a model.

I found this site devoted to NCAA recognition of Equestrian as a Varsity sport rather than the current "emerging" status it's held since the late 1990's: http://www.varsityequestrian.com/

I think the Collegiate Skating programs that the USFSA and ISI provide are strong starting points.

[jumpingbeansmom]

Because I work for a college, I've become more aware of colleges with ice rinks and there are quite a few.  (Not near me, of course.)

Our university just started a varsity hockey program, so I pointed out that I'm a PSA member and active figure skating coach.  It fell on deaf ears, lol.  Had to take the shot, though, right?

Our school has an equestrian program, so I thought that was a comparable sport/situation.  I hadn't thought of gymnastics as a model.

I found this site devoted to NCAA recognition of Equestrian as a Varsity sport rather than the current "emerging" status it's held since the late 1990's: http://www.varsityequestrian.com/

I think the Collegiate Skating programs that the USFSA and ISI provide are strong starting points.

Equestrian is still struggling as an NCAA sport-- my daughter who is a junior is starting to look at colleges and equestrian teams.   She is probably going to W. TX A&M-- but even they often compete IHSA rather than NCAA.   

[Query]

Just a thought, for those seeking sneaky ways to fund student/skaters -

Can a college pay scholarships to students who merely coach the NCAA athletes, rather than compete within the NCAA itself?

They could also make coaching part of a "work-study" program...

Does Title 9 allow program money to be paid to coaches, and can those coaches be students?

I guess the NCAA rules make it difficult for ballet-as-a-sport too. Many dancers join professional dance troupes as kids. (Some sources say ballet started out as a sport. Royal courts paid dancers to compete with dancers from other courts.)

[Isk8NYC]

"Sneaky" is never the best way to do anything that has restrictions.  The NCAA can sanction all programs for a school and the Financial Aid and Admissions offices know that and are reluctant to make deals under the table like that.

Title IX controls opportunities moreso than budgets.  Big sports like Football and Basketball are often sub-funded by external sources, such as booster clubs and alumni groups.  That's often how facility improvements get done - the Alums pay for new turf and showers.

I don't think the NCAA allows undergraduate students to be varsity coaches.  Work-study and scholarships wouldn't work, if I'm correct.  Most full-time staff coaches receive free tuition as part of their employee benefits, but part-time grad students might be interested.  That's an option.

[KelMo]

I'm not sure this is an NCAA issue as much as it is something to be discussed at individual schools.

Synchro is a varsity at some schools, already.

I competed for my university's club team when I was a student and there was talking about going varsity, but in the end it was determined to be better to stay club.  We were lucky that our school was very supportive of competitive club sports, and we got free ice time and coaching (from money raised by our club, not the athletic budget.)

[FigureSpins]

I know Miami University offers Synchro as a varsity sport, but I'm not aware of any other US colleges/universities that offer figure skating as a varsity sport.  Which ones are you thinking about?

The NCAA does not recognize any form of figure skating as one of their sports, so any schools with NCAA sports classify figure skating and synchro as Club, not Varsity.

That shuts out figure skaters from a variety of grants and scholarships that many of them would benefit from tremendously.
For example, there are at least 6-8 NCAA programs benefitting women athletes and their coaches, to provide continuing education and training.  That's in addition to the school's chosen financial aid scholarships.

So, there's a good reason to want figure skating to be an NCAA sport, but I guess the downside is that it would involve more administrative work on top of the ISU/USFSA/ISI requirements that skaters conform to currently.

[PinkLaces]

My DD is looking at colleges (currently a HS junior).  She would like one where she can continue to skate.  She has found a half dozen with figure skating clubs.  Most are synchro based, but you don't have to have previous synchro experience.  The school my DD is leaning toward has free ice time as part of the student activity fee.  The skating club is synchro based, but doesn't have a professional coach - it's a student coach.   

[FigureSpins]

The USFSA has lists of colleges with Synchro and Intercollegiate skating programs: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=86

There are even more schools with ice rinks that don't have figure skating programs, including RPI:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=86

They have a big hockey program and their own rink, but while their club sites list figure skating, there's no information listed.
The rink's figure skating club is the Hudson Mohawk FSC http://www.hmfsc.org/about-history.html
(The Mohawk native americans are from the NY Hudson Valley area.)

[Schmeck]

I love the MIT one - you get to contact Curran Oi if you want more info!

If anyone is looking to continue synchro skating while in college, they may want to look at a college in the Boston area, and try out for the Skating Club of Boston's collegiate team.  I believe the club gave funding to the team.  Of course it wouldn't be eligible for NCAA status, as it is not affiliated with any one college.

[Query]

How do schools which do sponsor figure skating programs and varsity teams avoid NCAA sanctions?

[KelMo]

@FigureSpins: I was definitely thinking of Miami University.  I thought a few of the other midwestern sychro teams were varsity (Michigan & Michigan state) but I could be wrong.  I'm not a synchro skater, so I don't pay that much attention.  I see what you're saying about the NCAA sanctions and scholarships.  I went to a school that does not give athletic scholarships for any sports (all need-based financial aid) so I forget about such things. I wasn't a student when my alma matter was seriously thinking of going varsity, but I remember it was a problem because of some Title 9 stuff making co-ed sports really tricky, and there being no real advantage to it for us other than prestige (as it wouldn't open us up to scholarships or anything.)

@PinkLaces: There are dozens of programs all over the country that offer non-sychro skating teams, and it's growing every year.  They're all different in terms of what sort of structure/support they offer.  Where I went we got all of our ice time and coaching covered (well, sort of, long story). Other places give students discounted ice time, whereas other places just offer an organization but people use their own coaches, etc.  Feel free to message me if you want more info.

@Query: What do you mean "avoid sanctions?" Perhaps I'm wrong, but sanctions are penalties you get when you violate some rule.  There's no rule against having sports that are not NCAA sanctified.

[techskater]

How do schools which do sponsor figure skating programs and varsity teams avoid NCAA sanctions?

They do not give scholarships for figure skating/synchro; these are considered club sports and therefore do not fall under the rules of Title IX.  There's a possibility that some financial aid these students might not have received otherwise finds its way to them, however.  It's like Div 1AA (think Ivy Schools), 2 and 3 don't technically give sports based scholarships, but more money comes available through other scholarships/grants that they may not otherwise have gotten when someone really talented in basketball decides they want to go to Princeton and can gain admissions. 

[Query]

It is so complicated.

If I understand what you folks have said right, there is an advantage to NOT being a NCAA controlled sport, because you don't have the NCAA rules to contend with. Is it worth it?

I have a terrible confession, which is completely out of spirit with this discussion. I think that college income should be used to support academic programs of study, and that the way it is apportioned should reflect sources of income (e.g., tuition, grants, event admission tickets, alumni contributions) obtained from them. A sport is a legit academic study - but shouldn't get an amount of funding out of proportion to what it is responsible for bringing in to the academic institution.

[techskater]

There are advantages and disadvantages of being an "NCAA Sanctioned Sport".  One is that if that sport is offered as a varsity sport and scholarships are available at the school of your choice for it, if you are good enough, you can get your college experience paid for (or partially paid for) beyond your family's savings, grants and loans.

Most NCAA sports are NOT revenue generating sports.  You are thinking about the two big ones - football and basketball.  These two sports at most universities cover the entirety of the athletic department shortfall for other sports (think the cost of scholarships, coaches, etc).  In addition, by having strong sports teams (especially revenue sports) it helps the university at large with regard to perception in the larger world (reputation score) and when a school that is typically NOT a power at a revenue sport has a stellar year, ALL contributions tend to increase, not just football/basketball.  For example, when Northwestern, the previously perenial Big Ten doormat, made it's run to the Rose Bowl in 1995 (played in the 96 Rose Bowl), it increased the total giving in the following fiscal year by $150M.  In addition, it increased the number of applicants to the university by 3X which helped the selectivity rating for the annual rankings = moved the university up a few places and then into the top 10 for a couple years due to name recognition gained.  YMMV as most universities don't have the same desire to be ranked highly in the US News and World Reports annual, but it DOES help in other (academic) areas.

[Kim to the Max]

Most NCAA sports are NOT revenue generating sports.  You are thinking about the two big ones - football and basketball.  These two sports at most universities cover the entirety of the athletic department shortfall for other sports (think the cost of scholarships, coaches, etc).

Also, some of that money does go back into the general fund and the perks from a winning season benefit general fund departments. For example, when the college I previously worked for went to the final 4, the department I worked for (Residence Life, a general fund department that was unable to generate their own revenue) received their departmental van as a result of the basketball team going so far in the tournament.

I will say however, I have seen locally the salaries of the Basketball and Football coaches vs. the Chancellor and while I wasn't surprised, I was a bit disturbed at just HOW much the coaches were making in comparison (also given that the football team has been in the bottom of the NCAA for years now...)...